A-S-S-H-A-T Parents at Spelling Bee
 

http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/02....ap/index.html

I think a friend of mine had this right: "that's one of those things that has obvious merit, but they're just being dicks about it".


SI

You'd think they could get some judges that could at least spell as well as the kids. Or at least have some ex-winners proofread the cards or something. :)

Hell, you would think they could at least used MS word or something to spell check

I would assume if your child spent a CRAPLOAD of time studying and you knew the answer was right you would do something similar...im quite suprised they waited as long as they did...i would have been yelling when it happened

I don't see what they did wrong at all. They negotiated something that was fair with the people involved to make sure their child did not get screwed.

Agreed. I flip out a lot of times when I see parents overreact because it's "their" kid. But to watch your kid study and work their tail off and to see them lose because the damned teachers didn't know how to spell is ridiculous.

I would have threatened legal action as well.

I would not have threatened legal action, but I would've been pissed. I just hate how everyone's first instinct is to sue. It's justified in some cases, but this is a frickin' SPELLING BEE. Get a grip.

They didn't sue. They negotiated.

Do you have kids?

Yes. I have kids. I would not have hired a lawyer. Period.

Can you read?

If what they say is true then the people running the spelling bee asked for it. They said they waited until the end of the round, not the competition. At that point when it was pointed out that the word had been spelled correctly, the easy and obvious solution is to put her back in the field for the next round. They were dicks about their rules and got burned. Good for her parents.

What I want to know is why the other competitors and adults in the audience didn't say something. There is no way that nobody among the other competitors and their parents knew how to spell discernible.

And their version of a solution to this situation is just asking for a problem. I have a feeling a good percentage of kids will immediately launch a protest demanding cross-reference of multiple sources whenever they're eliminated. After all, it's quite clear that they want their rules followed very closely.

Devious, but assuming they didnt just assume they themselves were wrong and the dictionary must be right, i imagine they didnt mind getting her out of the competition.

If you did not have kids, I could have completely discounted your opinion as not knowing what the fuck you were talking about.

As for my reading ability its just fine - where did you say you had kids?

Then that's your choice.

I disagree with you completely, but that's your choice & that's something that's between you & your kid(s).

But if I'm in the same situation (albeit I would have raised hell immediately), then I do whatever I can for my child, very much including what these parents did.

I just thought I would randomly attempt to insult you, as you did to me.

Also, the story clearly says that the parents did threaten to sue. They were being dicks about it, as far as I'm concerned. I'm all for going the extra mile for your kids, but bringing lawyers in to litigate a spelling bee decision crosses the line from reasonable behavior to ridiculousness.

Difficult things happen in life. What better way to show your kids how to deal with adversity than to threaten litigation.

Better than teaching your kids to just roll over & play dead when you still have legitimate recourse.

Jon, there is no point arguing with you, as I've learned over my several years at FOFC.

But I'll just say this: "legitimate" is in the eye of the beholder.

Ah, wisdom ;)


So is parenting apparently.

I would just say different people have different approaches and leave it at that.

It's getting pretty catty in here.. I'm leaving.

GEORGE: All right Bubble Boy. Who invaded Spain in the 8th century?

BUBBLE BOY: THAT'S A JOKE. THE MOORS.

GEORGE: Oh, Noooo, I'm so sorry. It's the MOOPS. The correct answer is, The MOOPS.

BUBBLE BOY: MOOPS? LET ME SEE THAT. THAT'S NOT MOOPS YOU JERK, IT'S MOORS. IT'S A MISPRINT.

GEORGE: I'm sorry the card says MOOPS.

BUBBLE BOY: IT DOESN'T MATTER. I'S THE MOORS. THERE'S NO MOOPS.

GEORGE: It's MOOPS.

BUBBLE BOY: MOORS.

GEORGE: MOOPS,

BUBBLE BOY: MOORS!

I'm curious as to what you teach your kid here? That you just roll over and play dead when you are in the right?

Hell, I hate lawsuits. I hate the amount of legal action taken in this country as a whole. And I've never been a part of it. I've been in situations where I could sue and I never have.

But in this case? The parents waited until the end of the round, not the end of the spelling bee. They tried to handle things in an appropriate manner, but the school officials were the ones who acted like children. Rather than admit their mistake (which would have taught the child a hell of a lot more than the parents rolling over and telling their kid "tough luck"), they decided to knock the kid out of the competition from their error.

I don't have children as of yet, but if I did, I would damned well defend them in this case. And that includes contacting an attorney and threatening the school with a lawsuit if they don't make it right. I would do EVERYTHING in my power to ensure a lawsuit didn't happen, but I'd damned well let them know that if it got to that point, I would be more than willing to do it.

I think these parents have been very reasonable. They didn't demand the spelling bee to be replayed. They didn't ask that the kid who won be removed from the competition. They didn't demand their kid be given the first place trophy. They demanded that their kid be treated fairly.

They got what they wanted and I'm happy for the kid. He didn't mispell a word, he should be allowed to move on until he does.

I would say i wouldnt teach my kid to give up...the kid was right, the organization wrong...i dont see why they are suddenly asshats for making sure the kid wasnt screwed out of something the child has no doubt studied years for.

Saying that, lets not get too political in here...please

School systems can be such an inflexible beauracracy and I think a lot of the times parents come to the point where the threat of legal action is their only recourse.

I think that's a problem that may be more symptomatic of the school system than it is of overzealous parents.

So, the spelling bee would push you over the edge, would it? Odd. I guess I'm just in the minority here.

Besides, as I'm reading it, the rules of the spelling bee did say that the protest had to be lodged immediately after the word was misspelled. As far as I'm concerned, the parents did not play by the correct rules either, and then when it was pointed out that they didn't follow the rules, decided to throw a hissy fit until the rules were bent in their favor. That's just how it looks to me.

I think it would be interesting to dig up threads about the chinese gymnast from the last olympics and see where people fell on that issue...

You parents are giving yourselves way too much credit. My dad would have slapped me on the way home for misspelling "discerned," even if I had got it right. :)

I'm not sure how I feel on this issue, but this was a fun exercise...

Korean Gymanst:



Spelling Bee:


Korean Gymnast:


Spelling Bee:





---------------

Not sure that either of these necessarily conflict each other (although I'd argue Jon's probably does)... these are the only two people that posted in both threads.

THANK YOU. Why is everyone missing this point?

That's simple -- in the first case there was an American about to get screwed over. In the second case there's an American getting screwed over. Both cases have their own appropriate resolution ;)

Even if i have nothing to say about the subject...i will ALWAYS post in any thread that uses my favorite word.

ASSHAT!

Yep, it would have pushed me over the edge. WAY over the edge as a matter of fact.

I think penalizing a child because some dumb ass who typed of the words didn't care enough to proofread is a joke. I think the parents disputing the fact after the round was perfectly acceptable. I think the parents threat of legal action did exactly as intended. The child moved on to the next round of the competition. And no lawsuits were filed, only the threat of lawsuits.

The "settlement" shows the school and the parents do have some brains. I don't think either got what they wanted, but the right thing was done in the end.

As for the Korean gymnast thing, I think the cases are different in the fact the competition was over before they had complained or raised the issue. I'm not sure of the rules in that, but the judges and teams should have been able to look over scoring before the medal ceremonies.

The other issue, is with a competition where scores are continually kept and posted, those scores can have a direct impact on the outcome of the event. (it's like the Super Bowl, where I think the officials were horrific, but nobody can really say Seattle would have won the game had they gone up 17-14, we don't know what happens after that)

In this case, this kids being eliminated had no impact on the other kids beyond the fact that they now had one less person to deal with. And the judgment and threatened lawsuit never intended to take anything away from the other children. Even delaying the bee until a ruling could have been had wasn't a major penalty to any of the other competitors.

I fail to see where the parents were wrong here.

Maybe we glossed over it because the word was, in fact, not misspelled so that doesn't apply to this situation. :D

Because we want to.

I would want to see if the rules were handed out to the parents, how long in advance they were handed out, and the exact wording of the rule before I'll bow to that.

When I was a kid and competed in a couple of spelling bees (God, I remember those days when I could actually spell), I was always given a one page sheet for my parents to sign. I competed in junior high school and do not remember seeing a rulebook. At the start of the competition they go over basic rules, but I do not remember them going over this one.

If it had went to court and it was proven the parents signed the book of rules where this was clearly written, I would move on over to your side. My assumption, based only on my personal history, makes me believe that while the "rules" may have stated this, the children and the parents were never actively made aware of it and I think that falls on the administration.

I think I'm going to sue the ref at our next basketball game when he incorrectly gives the ball to the other team on an out of bounds play.

I feel like the analogy police after endorsing JIMG's effort earlier, but this one is horrible.

I'm suing the analogy police for punitive damages...you are giving me.

I'm not a parent, but it strikes me that there are other valuable lessons to be learned here:

Pick your battles. Not everything in life is worth fighting over.
Lawsuits rarely make anyone feel better.
Procedural rules (like when to complain) are just as important as substantive rules (how the word is spelled)
Confrontation is not a solution to all of life's problems.
It's just a spelling bee.

I think there are many different lessons that could be drawn from this story other than TroyF's statement that you are teaching your kids to "just roll over and play dead."

Can I have the word origin of punitive?

completely agree

Modified it a little bit. Now look at it from the administrators' perspective. It was simply idiotic not to let her participate in the next round immediately.

from your mother

I'm in no way defending the administrator. However, the administrator's wrongness doesn't change the lessons I listed.

Can you use it in a sentence?

The punitive spanking I got from your mother was fabulous.

Lawsuits rarely make anyone feel better - But when you feel you've been wronged, you have every right to file one, living in this country gives you that right. Even for asshats like me who complain about to much litigation.

Pick Your Battles - What if this kid spent all Summer training for this "spelling bee?" Just because you don't think it's important in the grand scheme, maybe for the kid it was something worth fighting over.

Procedural rule are just as important as substantive rules - Fine. Again, I want to see where the kid and the parents saw the rules before. If they did, fine, I'll back down (while still thinking the administrators are the true asshats)

Confrontation is not a solution to lifes problems AND it's just a spelling bee - See above. Just because YOU don't think it's important, doesn't mean the kid doesn't. I despise it when people tell me what's important to me isn't really all that important.

I know what the real important things are. My family (for which I have and would again sacrifice greatly for), my health (which has had its ups and downs), my friends (who I'd do anything for) and all of the other things that people often site are important. You know what's important to me? I have a John Elway autograhped rookie card that was signed when I was 12. To some it's a piece of cardboard. To me it's something I treasure. And I really don't give a damn if you or anyone else thinks that's "important" or not. This kid obviously studied his tail off and placed some importance to this event.

And if it can be proven the kid and parents were aware of the procedural rule, they'd lose in court and the kid would learn many of the lessons you gave above anyway.

A couple of things....

I believe the rule that the protest must be lodged immediately is a poor one, changing it so that an appeal is permissible until the end of the round makes much more sense.

Its the administrator's job to enforce the rules. If the administrator allowed the end of the round protest, a situation would have been created where the remaining participants each would have a valid appeal. It would have made things much more messy, especially since they would have a technically valid reason to appeal. The administrator actually kept the issue as neat as possible by enforcing the rules as they were written.

I'm pretty much going to go off on a total tangent here and ignore everything you wrote, because I don't think we are using any of the same assumptions.

While the gymnast situation was a much better analogy, I think you would also find a lot of commonality between those who support the lawsuit and those who support the war in Iraq.

It seems to me that the same thought process which breaks down the Iraq situation into Appeasement v. Invasion is at play here. When you see the world as having only two solutions and one "good" side and one "bad" side, then the choice of solution logically follows. If, however, you believe that there are no "perfect" or "easy" answers, that every action has costs and benefits, and that you can be both "wrong" and "right," then I think you approach situations like Iraq and the spelling bee in very different ways.

To quote a completely silly movie, "Sometimes when you lose you actually win and sometimes when you win you actually lose, and sometimes when you win or lose you actually tie, and sometimes when you tie you actually win or lose. You see winning and losing is one big organic globule, from which one extracts what one needs."

3 entries found for punitive.

pu·ni·tive ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pyn-tv) adj. Inflicting or aiming to inflict punishment; punishing. [Medieval Latin pntvus, from Latin poenre, pnre, to punish. See punish.]

Billy Ho!

I think you're reaching a bit here. A local spelling bee can be won just by being generally smart and being able to learn vocab. at an early age. That's what I did. I finished 4th in my county's spelling bee one year and did little to no advance studying whatsoever.

I'd be just as reasoned in saying that the kid is obviously a spoiled brat and complained to daddy until she got her way. Based on the facts of the story, I'd have just as good a case as you.

And where did my original response randomly insult you?

If you cannot see the difference between using a possible lawsuit as leverage in negotiations and actually suing, please leave this thread immediately, you lack the wit to participate.

Go ahead and teach your child to meekly accept others walking all over him. I am going to teach mine to stand up for themselves in every instance they face injustice, and to use every fair and legal means available to them to do so.

Yes, things happen to you that you can do nothing about. Those you need to learn to accept to live with any sort of inner peace. Those you can do something about, you do.

When did the Koreans protest? End of the rotation or end of the competition?

Troy's responses have pushed me completely to the opposite side now.

And also an interesting blog entry from Paul Phillips:

Exactly as you already said it did: if I wasn't a parent, you were going to "discount my opinion as I wouldn't know what the fuck I was talking about". As though parents are the only ones who can have an opinion in this case. I suppose it wasn't an insult directed squarely at me, but since you didn't know if I had children, it sort of was. Also, I did find it insulting to suggest that non-parents should keep their nose out of this incident.

This is all just discussion anyway, it's not as though what we say here has any impact... I have no problem with standing up for your child, it is the manner in which it was done in this case that I have an issue with.

And as far as your generalization about my teaching my children to "meekly" accept being "walked on", you need to watch it. You don't know what I do or don't do with my children, and to suggest that because I would be doing what I believe to be correct in this case that I would be allowing them to be walked on seems to say that you are as closed-minded as your posts in this thread would suggest.

Well that's what I'm saying. Some parents these days just can't take it if one thing doesn't go right for their kid regardless if they played by the rules or not. "Oh so our children aren't going to get catered to? Ok, well we're going to sue."

It's almost along the lines of these grade school sports leagues where they either don't keep score or everyone gets a trophy win or lose. No one can take losing. It's just sad in my mind.

Jon, sometimes you're my favorite poster...

In my mind, I was thinking this was the logic... but I figured even you wouldn't flat out admit it ;)...

End of the rotation I believe, but it doesn't really matter.. over in the old thread folks are arguing for letter of the law, whereas here folks are argueing for the parents trying to be "nice" and wait despite what the rules say...

I agree with the general sentiment here. Perspective people. Honestly, what this teaches the kid is not that standing on your principles is important. It says that anytime something goes wrong in your life, no matter how unimportant, don't just let it go, waste energy and resources on trying to remedy it.

Things go wrong all the time. The lesson taught should have been that in the grand scheme of things, it's not a big deal, so let's move on.

(Elvis voice) Thank you. Thank you, very much

SI

And I agree with the other poster that it's the height of arrogance to tell someone what is and what is not important. This is important to this family.

High school football really doesn't mean shit in the grand scheme of things and the number of protests and threats of legal action in an average Texas high school football season would require at least 3 hands to count, I'd reckon. <-- "reckon" used for dramatic effect :)

No, some things are black and white. It's not a "we have to be considerate of others viewpoint" type situation. It's not emotionally healthy to put this much weight on such a small thing. It's not a big deal, plain and simple. If it is a big deal to the family, then they all have problems. It's a regional spelling bee. Of course that was obvious by the threatening of a lawsuit.

I think that the weight some people put on high school athletics is similarly ridiculous and emotionally unhealthy.

I love that everytime we have a post about something a kid did, we get the inevitable "Do you have kids" question. It makes me sit there and say "apparently the expertise that having kids gives you is that it throws the rest of your world so far out of perspective, that normally rational posters go nuts" (JiMGA not included; you're always nuts, but I like ya anyway ;) ).

I know I can't possibly understand the impact of kids on my life and I will have them someday but I really hope they don't make me a self-centered, over-protective, well, asshat. No matter the impact of having kids, it's not a license to be completely unreasonable to everyone else in the name of protecting/loving/raising/nurturing/whatever your kids. Yes, your first duty is to kids, family, but not to the exclusion of everyone else.

SI

Call me back when you've got one/some of your own ;)

FTR, the phrasing here is pretty much tongue-in-cheek. (when I'm trying to be an ass, you'll know it ;) )

A more serious point would be something to the effect of "your first duty is to kids, family..." and sometimes that duty conflicts with 'everyone else', so sometimes the two are in direct conflict.

I know, that's why you always get the special mention above :)

As to the direct conflict point, I understand that, certainly. But rather than binary, it's a sliding scale in my mind. When giving an inch on your side would save someone else a mile of grief, I'm of the belief that I'd give the inch most of the time as it doesn't mean that much to me but a lot more to them. That's not to say this particular one is an inch versus a mile case, mind you.

SI

Nothing really to add. I just wanted to say the comparison with the Korean/American gymnastic judging (btw, I was on the side of the Korean) was utterly brilliant.

I honestly don't see that big a deal in what the parents did. *shrugs* Granted, I myself would have said something immediately, but that's because I don't give a fuck whether it interrupts things or not.

I can certainly understand their waiting until the end of the round to lodge the protest out of not wanting to disrupt things.

Washoe County?

Someone call Dangle!

You have it backwards...people without kids are the self-centered asshats. Having kids is what changes that.

My fourth grader daughter had her school spelling bee today. It came down to her and one other in a fourth grade show-down. You know, to win you have to spell the other kid's misspelled word, and then spell your own word? As soon as Katie missed her first word, the wheels started whobbling. Then she missed another word, and the wheels came off. Then she missed another word (yes, this show-down took a while!), and the train left the tracks, ran down a hill, through a group of nuns and then blew up the orphanage. It was ugly. She held the tears until after the trophies were handed out, but afterward...UGLY. It really sucks when your kid's world gets cracked up.

Bingo! No offense to all you gov't employees out there, but this happens all the time. They have power and they don't give a crap. Then their supervisors stick up for them. Sometimes, they all need a smack upside the head to keep them in line. Why didn't the officials try teaching the students compassion rather than mindless followers of rules? It's because of asshats like this, that people have to threaten to sue to begin with. It's often the ONLY way to get their f%&(ing attention. Trust me on this one.

As far as I am concerned, all that is important is getting it right. If they were eliminated because of an error by the administrators of the competition, they deserve to be allowed to continue. I feel the same way about every competition.


Government schools are about teaching conformity, that the government knows best, that zero-tolerance laws are good ideas, and further that there is no need to use judgment and reason when you can hide behind the letter of the rule/law.

The 10-year old of a friend of ours brought home an interesting assignment the other day: "The Good Things Our Government Gives Us." You can tell what they're being taught just by that. If somebody was completely honest with that paper, they would likely fail. I believe there is an intention to teach their students that the government has the answers and they surely have an incentive to do so.