Forum Opinion(RE: URGENT)
 

There has been concern raised in the past day or so about the upcoming Rome game, and my personal involvment. Many of you know me, and many have mixed opinions. Thats all nice and good, but the quandry that has arisen is in regards to the Rome game. The problem, as stated by PM, is that bek is also playing. For those who dont know, he is a close friend in real life. Id venture to say about 20 games ago, we played together and i got him killed off a joke PM he sent me(the reason we have the PM rules we have today), as i was evil, and it raised a big ruckus about meta-gaming(which, as stated, is the reason rules are now in place). Since then, we have played one other game together, about 10 ago. In this game, people suspected me but went after bek because they thought he might be a wolf, and if not he would be too easily influenced by me(the person raising these concerns was the one who stated this in that game).

Anyways, the point is this concerned party does not believe that bek and i should play in the same game together. Now, i am fully for maintaining the integrity of the game, but bek and i have never once cheated. Every game we see close personal relationships(ant and DC, married, are playing this game...saldana and lathum used to play together a lot and their best friends...lsg and GE are married, and they have played together). So my question, which im leaving up to you, is does the forum not want bek and i to participate in the same game. I will make the poll private, but i ask you to vote honestly.

I'm cool with it

I wouldn't worry. I am voting to lynch you on Day One anyway. :)

I'm cool with it ... (my character won't survive long enough to be bothered either day ;) ) ..

Blade, the way you have represented this is completely inconsistent with why there is concern about the two of you playing together.

I voted "NO" and I think anyone who is aware of the history of the two of you playing together would vote the same way. A lot of this information has been kept quiet, but the fact that the two of you post from the same IP address, acted with information that should have been private for the other person, and actually cross-posted in Bek's game are all significant data points for someone trying to make a decision. Each of these was left out of the argument you listed.

Here is the cross-posting that took place in the first small game. Anyone who was paying attention could see that Bek's posts were shifting into Blade mode but you confirmed it in this sequence.

I wasn't to concerned with cheating in the survivor game so I'm not in this one.

I'll be happy to give more specific examples, if needed. The fact that the vote was 5-0 in favor of "YES" prior to my vote indicates to me that people took your post at face value and didn't have adequate information. If there are legitimate reasons to be concerned about collusion, then what fun is a game like this. It is the equivalent of "betting on baseball" to me.

The reason no one questions people like Lathum/Saldana and LSG/GE about playing together is that their in-game actions have not given a reason to do so. I think most of us encourage having new people play the game, as long as there is a level playing field. There are compelling reasons to believe that is not the case in games where you and Bek are playing together.

Blade, if I had had a problem I certainly would have said something earlier. However, this is the sort of situation where we need to worry about pleasing the minority. If there are only two or three people who have an issue, that is still a significant problem.

I was the one who brought the concern to Blade and Bek. This was after 3 players said something about it to me. Blade has always been an instinctive player, and a very good one at that. However as hoops has alluded to even beyond the first small game, there had been reason to suspect at the minimum that Blade and Bek succumbed to the very human instinct amongst friends to talk about the game. I know that Lathum and saldana sometimes avoid talking to each other at all during games just to make sure they don't inadvertently say something about WW they shouldn't.

In many ways I'm glad to see that the poll is so slanted towards Blade and am happy to see this be a community decision.

I'm OK with it. As far as the cross posting goes, I will look at that as a one time thing. I trust everyone here to play the game honestly until proven otherwise.

I voted yes. However i'd like my vote to be a "conditional yes." a "trial yes" if you will.

i'm all for second chances, and not stringing people up for one accident (when it's not in a game of WW that is). So how about we view this as a "trial" of sorts??

now maybe that's unfair to cronin and the theme of this game that i'm very much looking forward to, I don't know. but I think we need to see more evidence before we can roundly condemm?

I just don't want this WW-ving community to head down the path towards excluding people, or creating cliques or whatever you want to call it, without good solid reasoning.

So I vote it's fine they can play together, but they are both "on notice" so to speak. Maybe cronin will have a couple people willing to be alternates in case there's obvious funny-business (though I doubt there would be). And we can discuss after the game how we all thought it went.

make sense?

I'd feel a lot better about having blade and bek play together if there had only been one incident. It's happened at least twice already. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

two incidents? do tell. I guess i've only been a WW-player for one of them

I'd rather someone more impartial than myself tell the story, if possible, but I think it's about time the entire story was laid out from someone other than blade or myself. Honestly, I'd feel much better about this poll if blade wasn't the one that had started it.

I was unaware of any of this, so more information is helpful. If there's still more to the story, now's probably the time to get it out there.

I remember the game hoops was referring to cuz I was in it. I have posted under Ant's name by mistake and I feel Blade/Bek might have done the same thing.

Blade takes this game too seriously, I think, to cheat like that. We talk on AIM on a regular basis and not once has he spilled the beans on games where we've played together... NOT ONCE. I think it was an honest mistake.

i say we let Blade play, he makes the game some much more fun with his wacky assertions. besides i bet we hang him early anyways. as long as he vows on his WW heart not to cheat

dola,

so is it suggested that blade or bek withdraw because of WHO says no as opposed to what the majority says? That's how it's looking.

Either that or he gets night killed... yup, I totally agree bullet, Blade makes the game very enjoyable for me too.

I voted no. Blade and Bek are the reason GE doesn't play anymore. I believe they are the same person cuz they play from the same IP address. Hoops and I have had many discussions about this

The bolded sections from my earlier post indicate that I think this is more than a one-time issue.

Earlier I quoted the game where it is indisputable that Blade posted as Bek. Anyone who wants to read through the posts as that game evolves will clearly see that Blade was posting under the Bek account far earlier than the slip-up.

I'll leave it up to Blade to decide if he wants me to bring up more issues from past games. If he still wants to participate with Bek, while publicly making it seem like he is being unfairly persecuted, then I'll continue on this course. If not, then I don't see a compelling reason to dredge up stuff that hasn't taken place in months. I like playing werewolf with Blade, but I like playing werewolf on a level playing field more than any one person (or two people).

GE and I never talk about the game until we are both dead. And I dont have a problem with either Blade or Bek playing, but not both. And I never went to Barkeep about this, but I should have, I went to hoops instead because we had talked about it on AIM after Blade knew things that only Bek could after a game way back in the day.

But I love Rome and I am excited to get this game started, so lets get this over with and start asap Cronin :)

WW politics... luv it

I have no idea about what Blade has done in the past, but I disagree with this statement. Most of the cheaters I have come across in similar play-for-fun type games as this (such as online leagues or other multiplayer games) have done so precisely BECAUSE they take winning way too seriously and are willing to lie, cheat, and steal in order to win.

Are Blade and Bek married? How are they posting from the same IP address? Unless close friend is code for passionate lovers.

I can see where you're coming from but from the conversations blade and I have had he could have easily disclosed information to me but didn't.

I'll stop here and wait to see what blade says, but ya'll know how I feel.

Apparently bek is Blade's split personality that shows up only in WW games.

Okay, I should stop now I don't wanna get lynched on my first day.

By the way, I voted yes. From what I know of Blade, I know he could be overly emotional and that is why I would like for him to play. Although I think it is a little strange that two friends are posting from the same computer, it is not really a stretch unless it is happening on a consistent basis.

You say it as a joke. I don't think it's a joke. I really enjoy playing with Blade as well. One only need look at how well he played in Alan's game to see that his intuitive play is entertaining and good for the game. However, there has been, on more than one occasion, evidence suggesting that at the bare minimum Blade and Bek are working off the same page. It would be one thing if their IPs occasionally matched. However, there have been games where Bek has ONLY been on when Blade has been on. There is other, more circumstantial evidence, but I am going to have to go find it as I don't want to unfairly throw stuff out against Blade, liking him as I do. I think hoops has other firm facts and would encourage him to post them at this point just so we're all working from the same page and people understand, even if they disagree, where this is coming from.

I have never cheated, but the fact people believe i would, or even that bek and i are the same person, is insulting. There have already been more then the pre-set # i gave myself about withdrawing, so i will simply say have a good day everyone.

Aha... played out just like I thought.

It's okay because even though the Blade character is gone, we still have bek which is the same person... no big loss right?

I don't really have an opinion on all this, I remember the incident that hoops mentioned, and I remember hearing that Blade and bek had agreed not to play in the same game for a while.

Anyway, for the Rome game, Blade is out (per his request) and bek is in, until I hear otherwise.

Nobody minds Blade playing the game DC. I dont think anybody has a problem with Blade playing cuz he is a good player. We mind that Blade plays as two seperate people.

Bek has not been online since he signed up, so I've pulled his name (for now) as well.

+1, with the exception of I knew of their friendship, but wasn't aware of everything else.

While I understand there is an "enquiring minds want to know" sentiment on this topic, I don't have any overwhelming urge to try and take shots at Blade (or Bek). My point was that he is not a victim in all of this, as his original post in this thread indicated.

Blade has withdrawn from the game. The issue causing the PM that spawned this thread is no longer in play. The character of the players have now been publicly called into question. What it the upside of continuing down this path by giving more detailed information at this point? I only see it further polarizing people, which I would like to avoid as much as possible.

I'm glad Ant has been exposed to WW and hope that he takes this drama and makes use of it :)

At a minimum Bek is back. I think it's far more likely that our new friend Lax is Blade. When Bek reappeared signing up for the game last night, I deleted the posts hoping it would go away. Bek contacted me and after some discussion I told him to create a new name, in hopes that the return would be discreet. The return has been anything but discreet.

I would have liked to have seen an actual apology and an acceptance that cheating occurred. What I got was a tacit admission, hardly the remorse that this situation deserves. Much to my own disappointment our community didn't see this originally for the travesty that it was. And as a result I wimped out and posted the above, trying to mitigate it in someway by not doing my moderator routine. This in no way reflected my opinion at the time. I sincerely regret making that post. What Blade did deserved stronger condemnation from me than it received.

That said we're 14 months past. People deserve second chances, just as our game deserves integrity and honesty. If you don't want to let Lax/Blade play in your games, fine. I don't blame you. Why have the specter of cheating hanging over it? If you believe that people deserve second chances? Well that's the side I came down on. No more than one of the Blade/Bek/Lax trio should play in an a game, but one of them certainly can if the GM is alright with it. I hope that my faith in the goodness of the people who want to play this game, even if it has failed in the past, will be rewarded now.

~Barkeep49, Your Friendly Werewolf Moderator

I think they are all the same person and will make my game descions accordingly

I wasn't playing WW when the Bek/Blade drama happened, but I will definitely be cautious of our new member Lax. Not going to go so far as to say I don't think he should play, but will definitely have my guard up.

if Schmidty and Mrs Schmidty can play together....

The whole Bek/Blade thing (and another unrelated incident) drove me out of the ww games and the community. Blade by himself was infuriating enough with his rants, arguments, and insults every game, but the cheating was the end of my ever playing a game with him again.

I feel very strongly about this and do not think he should be allowed back. If he is - in any of his 3 (or more) guises - I will not be playing in any game that he is allowed into.

I am glad KWhit bought this up.

I didn't wasnt to crap all over AlanT's game but the more I think about it the more I agree with this sentiment.

I have had this discussion with other people in the past day about this. Alot of us put alot of effort into these games and even if the potential for cheating is/ was there that is enough to make it less fun.

I couldn't disagree more.

Schmidty and Mrs. Schmidty haven't shown and patters of cheating. Blade/ Bek ware caught red handed. And Blade has never shown any attempt at an apology, even going so far as attempting to make himself a victim.

there are a number of people who have real world relationships that play together and they have never had any issues at all.

I remember one weekend Saldana and his wife came to visit me and Mollymurphy and Me, Saldana and MollyMurphy were all playing and there was never a problem.

I think people who know each other should absolutly be encouraged to play in the same game until there is a reason to not allow it, Blade/Bek gave us a reason

Are you serious with this comment?

I'm willing to give a second chance. But I totally understand the feelings of those who aren't.

I agree with the wolfy one here. It's completely different. I suspect that a lot of people still don't get the whole Bek/Blade thing and think it's just two friends who maybe talked a little bit too much about the game outside of the game thread. That's not my understanding of the situation.

I agree with this post entirely, especially the part above that I bolded.

I enjoyed playing the game with Blade, as he was a guy who put thought into the game and was always willing to take part in the conversation. In my opinion, you can't get enough of those types of players. However, when the integrity of the game is compromised it is going to push people away - KWhit has already said that this was the case with him. I'm just glad he came back as I enjoy having him in our communicty. There isn't a person in the game who is more important than the group, especially with the good vibe that we have had going for the last year or so.

There are others who no longer play the game (I know of at least two) that had similar concerns to the ones KWhit mentioned. The method that Blade came back under - posting under Bek again, then going with a new handle when he met with resistance - is also disappointing. It gives me the impression that he still doesn't understand that what he did was wrong. This poll already told me that he didn't get it last year.

That is indeed not the situation as I understand it. There is just far too much evidence to suggest anything but Blade also playing under the account of Bek. We're not talking friends collobarating here, we're talking one player playing multiple accounts.

~BK, YFWWM

It happened in my Necromancer's game, I'm convinced it happened in Path's Animal Farm game, and Blade/Bek cross-posted in the example I showed above. That is a pattern of behavior, not an accident.

These are only the games where I was involved and sensitive to the potential situation - I would expect that if moderator's were to review their previous games that they might find other examples of this taking place that have not yet been discussed (privately or publicly).

I think the fact that it has come to this point again already indicate it is going to be a problem

dola- I would be curious to hear what some of the "newer" players have to say who weren't here last time.

I wasn't around during the situation, although I do know of the Bek/Blade and have heard about what happened. IMO, if one person is posting in multiple accounts, neither account should be allowed to play in a WW game. And that sounds like exactly what happened. It ruins the integrity of the game and I wouldn't want to be a part of a game like that. Now it sounds like he wants to come back - well what's to stop him from doing it again (other than not allowing him in)?

I also wasn't around for it, and I'm sure they are nice guys and all of that, but I'm not going to play in a game, and invest the X amount of hours in it, just to find out that needless cheating may or may not be happening when there is no need for it.

So yeah, if Blade/Bek/Lax whoever is playing a game, I'll likely not be. I've just got better ways to invest my time.

I wasn't around previously either, but if he wants to have a shot, with a name that we can recognisze of as him, then I could deal with a trial basis.

+1

Let me clarify my +1. I would leave it up to the game's GM on whether or not he/she will allow them in. For me personally, I would likely then sit out that game but it's a reasonable way to monitor the situation without completely shutting someone out.

That is why I asked if Bullet was serious with his comment about Schmidty/Mrs Schmidty. RendeR and Telle play in WW together all the time, SL and I played a game together - aside from the joking "I know you are a wolf" or similar arbitrary comment, we didn't discuss it. He asked me a few general questions, or asked me about the dynamic between certain players (Lathum and Saldana for instance), but details of the game were not discussed.

As BK has stated, this case was of Blade/Bek being the SAME person. It's a totally different situation. It was dishonest, calculated and underhanded.

im all for him playing :)

then someone else can get lynched day one every time :)

prvous post was made in jest, just dont lycnh me!

i was around at the time, but wasn't in that game and didn't necessarily recognize the transgression when it happened b/c i wasn't in the game in question.

I'm all for second chances in situations like this - but I wish there was some way to monitor it more conclusively.

my only thought on the subject falls in line with those who have i guess said "1 name plays" out of those names - and i also wouldn't want to see any one of those names in a game with anyone else who we didn't recognize. but i'm not sure that that's enough, and that that is possible.

this to me is the biggest problem.

Are we gonna say that anytime someone new plays Lax/Blade/Bek can't play?

That to me shows enough of an inherent lack of trust that we should just not allow him to play.

To be honest I am leaning towards not letting him play in a game I run because it isn't worth the potential drama

ok, so ive been keeping quiet on the issue up to this point, but I feel like my part of the story should be heard.

Ok, so i guess keeping this quiet didnt happen. I thought that I was allowed to come back quietly but apparently not. There are two different people in the blade/bek/lax issue. One person is blade, ill give you his facebook to prove it as well. The other person is bek/lax, which is myself. You may browse my myspace, www.myspace.com/laxjunkie62

As far as the previous issues that were stated, yes I was over at blade's house using his pc when the name flopping occured. He has his set up to auto sign-on and I had not realized it until the comment had already been posted. And like blade said in that forum, it was my dumbass mistake. Ive played many games as bek, including WoW and Guild Wars and Tabula Rasa, all while sticking with the same guild. You can ask any of them at www.hititlikeyoumeanit.com and they will verify that I am a loyal and trustworthy individual. Again, I am sorry if this has caused people to leave the game, but no harm was intended. I hope you can understand.

I will address any other issues that any of you have, i am an open book.

--bek/laxjunkie62

did you ever share info with Blade?

we shared general info, and since i joined later then him, he shared play styles of some of the veteran players, and some of the possible different play styles that I could use to play. Yes he took me under his wing, but no there were no rules that were intentionally broken

it seems you are dodging the question in a blade like fashion.

did you guys ever share in game information that could effect the outcome?

NO, im not trying do dodge anything, just two friends trying to play a game together, like many other pairs on here.

Can you take a picture with Blade, holding up a sign that says, "Poli Rules"?

its possible, ill have to talk to him though

Just curious - why would you choose here to play WW, given the past history with your account? There are certainly other places that have active werewolf/mafia communities that would not come with the baggage that your name(s) has (have) at FOFC.

I'm gonna back out of this thread now before it seems like I am cross examining Bek.

So if that is your myspace, what is Blade's?

because I feel like you all are a good group of guys and gals and that i have played with you all before. You all seem level headed, and are fun and enjoyable to talk to. Sure we have gone through our ups and downs, but isnt that part of growing and building a relationship?

Not sure this will work:
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...iendid=7720601

I dont mind Lathum, i want this to be in the open, I have nothing to hide. All i want to do is to be welcomed back to playing again.

yes, thats his

Bonus points if you post a youtube video with him singing "Poli Rules" over and over to the Djiboutian national anthem.

Now i think that might be a stretch, in fact, im going to have to say no to this one

Sure, but I would expect it would be easier to grow/build a relationship that doesn't start with acrimony.

Regardless of what you do/say there are going to be people here who are going to associate you with Blade and that are going to be convinced that there were past indiscretions involved with info sharing and account swapping. I'm including myself in that group. You are likely going to be censured from some games by moderators who don't want to lose out on having players not participate because you are in the game. That seems pretty clear from the responses in this thread over the past 24 hours.

I'm just wondering why would you put yourself through the hassle when you haven't seemed all that interested in clearing these issues up over the past 1.5 years.

Don't worry he wasn't ever being serious :).

His willingness to come back here and be forthright with-out being defensive is what tells me this isn't Blade. Doesn't speak to any possible cheating that occurred in the past.

Over the past 1.5 years, I have been drowning myself in my job and I realized that I wouldn't have the time to properly play these games, thats why I didnt. Recently, I have created time to, and thus have come back. I am putting myself through this because I do want to come back and play. I would like to play here, and if not playing in some games is what it takes, then I'm willing to sacrifice that.

understood, i missed putting the lol on the end of that

Bite your tongue.

Ouch.

bah, I dont get it. as someone pointed out there are tons of places to play, and if you play here, there will be lots of people out for you. and there is a history of acrimony.

I personally dont care, but even if one other does.... thats enough for me!

That's better.

meh. much ado about something.

as someone who was always, in my own opinion of myself, trying to mediate the ongoing wars between blade and the rest of the community...trying to calm down some of the agressive, sometimes personal attacks from him, or sooth the pissed off masses that he attacked, and also someone who chatted with blade regularly and considered him to be a nice guy, this is the stance I will take on the matter:

i will never play another game with either blade or bek or lax involved, and none of them are ever welcome in a game i GM

i fully believe they are the same person

i think blade's presence in the game is detrimental, despite what he adds as a player with some insightful analysis....the number of people that have quit playing in our community because of him is abhorrent...kwhit enumerated his feelings, and i know that EagleFan27 won't play any more because of Blade

regardless of what he claims are his feelings for this community, i consider Blade to be a detriment...no one that claims that this group of players and GMs and their games would do what Blade did to me...i do not know every detail, because Barkeep refrained from telling me in an attempt to mediate the situation, but after I trusted blade enough to give him the role listing so he could follow along with the Star Wars game, he outed hoopsguy to barkeep in the middle of the game, while both were still playing...if it hadnt been for the integrity of BK, who withdrew from the game, all the work i put into that game would have been ruined...that is not what someone who cares about the FOFC Werewolf Community does.

to this day, i have never received an apology for that from blade.

Yeah, potentially ruining people's games too?

No thanks, I'll pass. Go find another board to mess with Blade/Bek/Lax/Whatever.

In fairness it was not as simple as "hoops is a bad guy" but it was clear enough that I knew him to be a bad guy based on what was said. As that was a while ago I do not remember the details. So it was inadvertent but no less damaging and it is sad that Blade never offered an apology to either of us and I was upset to have to drop-out since I had been very invested in the game.

Saldana put it very well. I was tired of Blade's act (constant bickering, insulting other players, etc) even before the Bek fiasco.

I don't believe anything that lax has said in this thread, so as I stated before, I will not be playing in any game that one of his guises is in.

Note: I wasn't even aware of the BK-Hoops outing that Saldana talks about, so that's even more reason for my stance on this.

and just another tidbit on the inflamatory nature of blade...

lathum and i have been best friends for 13 years...i have never, even when I was drunk and screaming right in his face in the only (and stupidest) argument we have ever had, seen lathum lose his temper the way he did with blade in the pharaoh game...do we really want someone that can infuriate the most laid back, even tempered person i have ever known involved in our games?

Umm....you sure yer talking about Lathum? OUR Lathum???....umm....

+1

The Necro game said enough.

Does say something about our community that I'm not convinced he's wrong? ;)

LETS GET HIM!!!!!!




oh, wait...

in all seriousnes though, there have been many times when I have been chatting with BK, hoops, Clap, Sal, Alan, Tyrith, Pass, and others and have said " OK, I am gonna stop talking before I say someting I shouldn't"

also, those who have met me in person will testify that oddly enough I am really laid back.

That was pretty rude, and based on nothing. I shouldn't even comment on it, other than to say that I barely see my wife in real life, we have separate computers, and I also spend a lot of my time posting and reading WW on my laptop at work. I'm 33 years old with a family. I don't play WW to win - I play it because I like the people, and I have fun watching things unfold in front of me (which might be why I suck so much).

Your comment leaves me with only a modicum of respect for you. It was a classless, baseless insinuation, and is beneath contempt.