U of M is at it again
 

Dearborn is the highest populated muslim city in the United States, its why they do it and not UM Ann Arbor

using public funds?

From the article:

Again from the article:

and I assume all of the students who pay this fee are muslims?



what if the issue was over a crucifix?...would you be defending this as much?


The last time I checked, U of M was a public University

$100,000 spread over a significant student population is not much of a cost at all. Further, if it supports diversity throughout, I have no problem with such.


If that is the will of the student population, then it should not be a problem.


The idea of church and state being seperated is a very weak argument. If you don't think so, go to your local courthouse and see how many religious insignias you see presented.

Again from the article:




Please point out where I have come out for or against this. All of my posts have simply pointed out the answers to your questions, which are contained in the article.

I actually agree about the seperation of church and state, but it seems people only have a problem when it pertains to Christianity. I don't care how much it costs though, it's the principle of the issue. Why should non muslims be paying for something they won't be using. I see this project as non essential, and a waste of money...especially for those who don't give two craps about islam.

I think you'd be surprised at what you pay for and how much of it is used for many things that have nothing to do with you or for you. That being said, I think this is a very worthwhile initiative, no matter what the religion. If a significant number of students want a large crucfix on campus for the same cost, I see no problem with that. I see no problem with celebrating and respecting each of the religions. Further, as part of a nation of tolerance (which as unrealistic as it sounds, I hope and wish it to be), then there should be education and respect for all types of religions, faiths, and beliefs, whether wanted or not.

Thus, the eleven dollars that these "non-Muslims" would spend on installation of the foot-baths actually serves an educational purpose as it forces students to recognize and see a difference in belief structure.

I also find it laughable that the ACLU won't get involved in this(likely because it fits their liberal template) when if the issue were in fact over a Christian religious debate, they'd be there in a flash.

Again, it's the principle, not the cost.

I guarantee you that if Christians wanted to set up something similar strictly for religious purpose, people would be all over this. But because it's a "minority" religion, that's ok.

If I were a U of M student, I'd be pissed that my money is paying for this. If Muslim students want to set up something like this, they should be able to, as long as they used their own money.

Where in the article does it state that only Muslims can use the foot washing stations? The stations in and of themselves do not hold any special significance to the Muslim religion. If you are Catholic, does the sink you wash your hands in before taking communion have any religious significance? This is the same thing. A Muslim isn't going to be offended if someone wearing sandals (which quite a few college students wear) uses the stations to wash their feet.

Please!!.....Ok if that's the way you want it, I'll hang out in those baths all day reading my Bible...let's see what happens.

If they were using the money to build a mosque, or to buy students prayer blankets, then that would be totally different. There is nothing inherently religious about foot baths. This is a non-issue.

Then why are they being built?...It's humerous that the ACLU won't get involved in this case.

The stated purpose of that footstation in that article is so it's easier for Muslims to wash their feet before prayer. I think that's fine, but I don't think it's right for EVERYONE to pay for it. If Muslim students wish to have something like this, they should foot the bill for it.

Again, if this were some sort of Christian thing, there would be huge protests that student money is being used for it.

Wrong, according to the article ..

"The university claims the stations are needed to accommodate Muslim students, who must ritually wash their bodies -- including the feet -- up to five times each day before prayers ... "

The stations are SPECIFICALLY being built for the purpose of a religious rite (the washing of feet before a Muslim prayer). In this case, foot baths are very much focal to the point.

From a Blog written by Debbie Schlussel:


When I asked why the footbaths were being installed, Gallagher told me that this is "an accommodation to a significant portion of our student body and their friends and visitors in accordance with our mission." He said that it is a growing trend with Boston University, Cal State-Fullerton, University of Wisconsin-Madison, and Washington University of St. Louis, all installing footbaths. "We wanted to be part of that trend in accommodating Muslim students."

But when I asked Gallagher what portion of the U-M Dearborn is Muslim, he said that the most recent information the school has is from a 2004 survey of incoming freshman. The survey only identified 11% of students as Muslims, whereas 37% of incoming freshman were Roman Catholic. When I asked if there was any accommodation or money spent on Catholic students, he could not identify any.

Gallagher said the foot baths are the result of "years of ongoing negotiations with the Muslim Student Association." The Chicago Tribune exposed the radical Muslim Student Association (MSA) as an American branch of the Egyptian terrorist group, Muslim Brotherhood, which took part in the murder of Egyptian President Anwar El-Sadat as well as the shootings at the Temples at Luxor.

Again, from the article, the funds to build the bathrooms come from student fees. It is impossible to tell if 25% of the student body is Muslim, because they don't track enrollment by religion. Additionally, the foot bath stations are non-religious. Yes, the more than likely will be predominately used by Muslims, but they are not used exclusively by Muslims. I don't know if you have ever seen a foot washing station, but it is basically a faucet close to the floor over a drain. It is simply another bathroom fixture. There is nothing inherently "Muslim" about a foot washing station, just as there isn't anything inherently "European" about a bidet. You are making this sound like a foot washing station is comparable to a holy water fountain or baptismal font, when that could not be further from the truth.

But when I asked Gallagher what portion of the U-M Dearborn is Muslim, he said that the most recent information the school has is from a 2004 survey of incoming freshman. The survey only identified 11% of students as Muslims, whereas 37% of incoming freshman were Roman Catholic. When I asked if there was any accommodation or money spent on Catholic students, he could not identify any.

then why do they need to be built?

The blog says that Gallagher quoted percentages, but in the article, Gallagher is quoted as saying they don't track enrollment by religious affiliation. Something doesn't add up there.

My point is that is shouldn't matter what part of the student body is Muslim. Student fees on a public university should not be used for religious purposes.


I consider them a religious tool in the same fashion as a holy water fountain . Neither would be built if not for religious needs. Seriously, would $100,000 have been spent on foot stations if NOT for Muslim student needs?

Again, I'm not saying Muslim students shouldn't be able to have foot stations installed. I'm saying that the Muslim student organizations should be the ones paying for it. Whether non-Muslim students can or can't use it is irrevelent. The purpose of them is for the Muslim rite of prayer, just like a holy water fountain is used by Catholics for much the same reason.

They are being built because a large number of students are washing their feet in the sinks. Why they are washing their feet in the sink is irrelevent. There is a health and safety issue here that the school must address, and this is how they are addressing it.

The $100K was for the whole construction project. $25K of that was for the foot washing stations.

I agree that they wouldn't have been included if not for the requests of the Muslim students. If there had simply had a line-item in the construction that 3 of the sinks in each bathroom would have been built only 6 inches off of the ground, no one would have ever heard about this. The article doesn't mention it, but by your line of reasoning, if showers are part of the construction as well, they shouldn't be built either, since general body cleaning is part of the prayer ritual, and it you said it doesn't matter if a non-Muslim can use the bathroom fixture or not.

I really have no comment on the main issue here, but I'd just like to point out that I don't understand the delineation between "student fees" and "taxpayer's money." The standard is simply the use of state/public funds, which would include funds generated both from state taxes and from state-mandated fees of any kind. AFAIK, once paid to the state, they become state funds, the use of which can be an issue with something like this. Again, I'm not really getting into whether the use here is proper, but this notion that the funds are protected because they are student fees doesn't seem to work. But this is hardly my area of expertise, so I could be wrong.

So if I don't wash my hands, should I not have to pay for the sinks?

I have no problem whatsoever with this.

Bingo.

If this really bothers some students, they can always leave some dead fetal pigs in the sinks.

Problem solved.

Has U of M done this before, or tried to do this before? I mean, it's not like I still live there or anything, but I've never heard about it.

I am constantly stunned and amazed at the unbridled bigotry shown by certain persons on this board...and I'm ashamed that my home states primary college is represented by one of them.

My initial inclination is to agree with WVUFan here, the foot washing stations themselves are probably fine but I have an issue with the funding. I don't really understand the distinction between student fees and taxpayer dollars(what KSyrup brought up earlier), but common sense tells me this should piss me off a bit. Taking money that is collected by a public university and using it for a project that clearly has a religous reason and context is not something I'd be ok with if I was a student, I don't care what the religon is.


Note, btw, that I'm agreeing with WVUFan here, not PSUColonel. PSU seems to want to use this story to attack those who attack Christianity based on his comments, and I'm not ok with that at all. "What if this were a crucifix" and "espicially those who don't give two craps about islam" really, really don't come off well in this argument, but on the whole I have a problem w/ this from a church and state issue.

See the point here isn't that it is specifically for a religious reason, it is a SANTITATION issue. The students are going to wash their feet, wether they install these things or not. however if they do NOT install them, this large group of people are going to wash their feet in the sinks which directly impacts EVERY student and faculty member at the school.

There is NO issue whatsoever with the funding of these installations coming from the maintenance fees the students pay.

I actually have no knowledge of the law at all on this, but I'll see if I can defend this. Student fees are for student activities. Religious practice is a student activity, something that the students have decided, with no urging of the administration, to do.

I agree that this sounds like much ado about nothing. Schools have to cater to their students. If the students are creating a sanitation problem because of the need to wash their feet, a foot washing station doesn't seem so terrible.

Not related, but every bar I've ever been at that contains a sand volleyball court has foot washing stations. If people need to wash their feet, give them a way to do it.

This money is coming from the maintence fees, which is simply the school taking money to upkeep the school, the students have no say and no rights in any way as to HOW the school uses that money. Its for upkeep of the campus and this project is simply that, upgrading the campus facilities.

Or to look at it from another standpoint, how else would you solve the problem of students washing their feet in sinks?

Ban them from washing their feet in sinks?

Okay, you do that, then you need to find some way to monitor them so they don't *gasp* wash their feet in the sinks! Then there's the costs associated with punishing them for washing their feet, appeals, etc...

Given that these would also be recurring costs rather than largely being a one-off expense, from an economic standpoint, it makes sense to simply build the foot washing stations and be done with it.

Do a google search of "Debbie Schlussel" and you will find all the answers. The fact that PSUColonel cites her says a lot about him. I was going to post some blog entries from her about the Virginia Tech shooting, but she apparently decided to delete her posts (and all the ridiculous things she said in her own comments section). Here were the links (hxxp://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2007/04/is_this_ismail.html and hxxp://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2007/04/who_is_the_asia.html). She kept posting about how the media was covering up the fact that the shooter was Muslim despite all evidence to the contrary and said some really ugly things to commenters who disagreed.

Mediamatters has a summary of a few incidents, but they really miss out on the completely offensive, totally insane things she said about Virginia Tech (which I read in real-time): hxxp://mediamatters.org/items/200705020006?src=item200705020006, hxxp://mediamatters.org/items/200704170006.

She is basically an Anne Coulter wannabe who will say ANYTHING to get attention.

Yeah, cuz washing your feet in the sink is so much more unsanitary than washing the hands you just wiped your ass with. :)

That said, if they want to put in foot washing stations for whatever reason, I don't really care. If it *really* honks people off to pay a few extra bucks a year for this, they can always go to another university.

So are you also up in arms about cafeterias at state university campuses providing kosher food during Passover?

And while the person quoted said he couldn't think of any specific accommodations for Catholic students, I betcha their cafeteria makes sure there's meatless meals available in the cafeteria on Fridays during Lent.

as long as it keeps you the fuck away from here, I'm all for it

Its a college cafeteria, they'll have vegetarian offerings every day. :D

:)

True enough.. although they'll probably also be more likely to have fish on Fridays, especially during Lent. Because although it's not required to eat fish, it's traditional to do so. (mmmmm... beer battered fish fries...)

These numbers and the fact that there does not appear to be a single Muslim on the university's administration completely undercut the idea that there is any meaninful church-state issue here. This is hardly the tyranny of the majority. This was a completely non-muslim administration at an overwhelmingly non-muslim university taking an action to make its campus more hospitable to Muslims. If you don't understand why this fails to implicate the same church-state concerns invoked by, say, Christian elected officials in Christian-dominated communities posting the 10 Commandments all over the place, then you fail to have a basic grasp of what the basic doctrine is and why it exists. No one here sought to exercise or abuse political power to favor their own beliefs. If you want to have an exceedingly strict view of what separation of church and state means, I guess you can find an issue here. But if you look to the purpose of the doctrine, there is absolutely no cause for concern.

see, this is why DD is cool. :D

This person is past the point of no return.
He has such a victim complex that it could only be described as "Not quite scary, but a little too disturbing to be funny".

Getting your ass chapped over foot-washing stations? Oh, the horror! THEY'RE TAKING OVER THE COUNTRY!!!!!
SOON I WILL NOT BE ABLE TO TURN AROUND WITHOUT SEEING FRESHLY WASHED MUSLIM FEET!!!!


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

Wait a minute...I never heard that these footwashing stations are equipped with footwashing servants. That changes everything.

Another issue not broguth up is the potential for lawsuits. If some students slip, fall and injure themselves, they might sue the school. They might lose, but the cost to the university to fight the lawsuits, or to simply make settlements, would probably be a lot more than $25,000. So you spend $25,000 for foot baths so students won't need to wash their feet in sinks anymore, or you take the risk of spending millions fighting injury lawsuits.

Same here, but I'm a hippie liberal, so my opinion doesn't count. I'm not sure what's more amusing, though - the amount of time the right-wing blogosphere is spending on this (do a google of "Michigan footbath" and you'll see), or that PSU is demanding that the ACLU get involved.


True, however students have a pretty long and rich history of protesting themselves silly whenever they feel their fees are being used for wrong/stupid reasons. I think the fact that they're not protesting probably means that they don't mind this use of their fees.


You have the same problem with showers and, to a lesser extent, tiled floors under sinks and urinals. Unless you have actuarial data to back it up, I very much doubt there's a bump in insurance premiums for doing this, and the insurance rate would very much be the indicator of potential for injury/lawsuit.

I think you misread what I wrote....

If anyone's curious, here's a list of student groups at U of M. Note that all of these student groups receive money from student fees as well.

http://uuis.umich.edu/maizepgs/

I think there was a potential ambiguity in the first part of your post. You mentioned students slipping and falling, but I was unsure if you meant from washing your feet in the sink, or from the footbath.

Actually, I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic or not. My bad.

Yeah, I seem to do that a lot...

I meant slipping and falling from washing their feet in the sink. Putting footbaths in make it safer for the students who are currently washing their feet in the sink, thus lowering the potential for injury lawsuits.

Gotcha. So basically this is a money-saving exercise by the U of M. I'm surprised conservatives aren't applauding this.

Scrollling through the list a group called "The F-Word" stood out as a group that I could really get behind and support, the name is pretty deceptive though.

I understand where you're going with this, and I hadn't thought of it in that context.

If $100,000 (and they installed 4 footstations on campus, at $25,000 each, not just a single $25 thousand dollar cost) were spent on kosher or meatless food for Jewish or Catholic students, I would have a problem with that, too. In a public institution, no public funds should be spend for specific religious purposes. If you're gonna enforce that whole idea of church and state division, then enforce it for everyone.

But call it what it is ... this isn't a health issue, and that's not the reason why the colleges set this up. They set this up for convenience for Muslim students to pray, and that's perfectly fine they did it. My issue isn't with the footstations themselves, but how they're paying for it.

Again, if I were a member of a Catholic student organization and we wanted to install, for whatever reason, some system to make it easier for us to pray, I would fully expect that our organization to pay for it.

Uh-huh. So defending the right of the KKK to march in public fits the "liberal template" of the ACLU?

Now there's an amusing freudian slip...

It's not a freudian slip, just a really bad spelling error.

(weak grin)

I really need to stop clicking on PSUColonel threads. The idiocy smudges my soul.

Read it again. They're building two new bathrooms for a total cost of $100,000, including $25,000 for the footstations.

EDIT: Nope, you're right. It's $25,000. My mistake.

ahem...if you look at my original comments at the start of this thread, you'd realize that my argument is exactly the same as WVUFan.

;)

A poetic diss. And an accurate one as well.

I just don't see why the funds should go toward footbaths, when the majority of the people paying for them wil not be using them. I also fail to see how a student fund is somehow independent of tax money.

But that argument can be applied to lots of things. If the rule for spending has to be that it benefits a majority of students most items would have to be eliminated.

The overwhelming majority of the time religious practice is a good thing. Getting bent out of shape because a University is doing something which makes religious practice a better experience is an incredibly destructive reaction.

The only potential issue I see here is whether state funds can be used for this purpose. The idea that, excising the religious issues from this, student activity fees should benefit X percent of the student population is a non-issue. I mean, I recall when I was at FSU students getting pissed that the activity fee funded, in part, student tickets to football games, when (a) some people didn't want to attend football games, and (b) there were more students than available tickets for every game, but there wasn't a damn thing anyone could do about it.

Besides the "money issue" let's just take a look at what's going on in the world. I realize we all have religious freedom in this nation, but I do find it odd that public organizations are attempting to accomodate a potential enemy of the U.S. I also realize that not all muslims are enemies of this nation. However let's take a quick look at all of the conflicts around the world, and what those conflicts could mean for the United States as it pertains to the religion of islam:


http://www.savage-productions.com/Mu..._Conflicts.pdf

And here is the part where PSU goes completely off the deep end.

dola,

Do I need to say "in before the lock" here?

Bye-bye, PSU.

Here's where we're gonna differ, PSU.

It doesn't matter what religion this is. If Jewish people washes their feet before praying, I'd have the same problem. What religion this is being made for makes no difference whatsoever.

Also, for what it's worth, the enemy of the US is NOT the religion of Islam. That's like saying Christians are evil because of the morons in Kansas who protest funerals.

Not yet. He's censoring himself a little still. He wrote an initial reply to DD (which I missed), then edited it to say "fuck you", then edited it again to the smiley.

Word. Next thing you know, we'll all be taking our shoes off before we enter classrooms!

Jesus. You, sir, are a supreme asshat.

True, but he followed up his complain to Radii that he was making the same non-anti-Muslim complaints as WVU and then followed it up with a directly anti-Muslim rant. It is a little sad that he can't whip up the same level of ire from the rest of the board yet keeps trying.

Very true, and I agree with your premise, but the idiots in Kansas aren't causing global conflicts on an unprecedented level either.

Yeah...I guess it's just that I'm curious as to what he could have said before he edited his first post -- I guess it was something meaner than "fuck you"

But people washing their feet in Dearborn are?

If they are muslim, it's certainly plausable that they dislike Israel and perhaps even western values. Again not all muslims fall into this category, but based on the bigger picture, there is a signifigant amount of muslim hate mongers out there compared to most other religions, hence the number of conflicts muslims are involved in globally in the name of islam.


http://www.savage-productions.com/Mu..._Conflicts.pdf

You are missing the point on the money thing altogether.

This money is coming from the maintenance fund, this is not "public funding" this is a fee every student must pay to attend this school. This fee is in no way controlled or for the benefit of the students in specific. This money is for upgrade, upkeep and costs of maintaining the campus facilities. This isn't like an "activities fee" or something where the money is given to specific student groups for their own use. This money is the administration's in its entirity and can be used for any thing they so choose in terms of managing the campus facilities.

So, utterly failing in your "its public funding of religious BS" argument, you're left with little more than your freakishly right-wing ignorance and a deep rooted bigotry for muslims.

Must be good to be you eh?.......


Sheesh.

I think I'm going to make some PSUColonel T-shirts. Any suggestions for what they say?

this generalization is as bad as saying "Yeah but Christians haven't caused more deatha nd destruction in world history either."

My god do you even read your own posts?

I have to admit I didn't click on the link. But did you just cite Michael Savage as an authority? I mean, seriously? There's stupid and then there's evil. And then there is Michael Savage who manages to be both completely stupid and totally evil.

Pretty Stupid Uber-Colon Endlessly Lame

Thank you for saying it so that I didn't have to.


Bets on when he deletes the thread?

Twice. And it was the same exact link both times.

I'll set the over/under equal to the time my flight leaves O'Hare. It's scheduled for 8:45 PM.

What a bullshit list.

Can we please get rid of PSU now?

I'm a Catholic.

Having said that, the Catholic Church, on the whole, has DIRECTLY caused more pain and death and anguish over the course of it's life than any other religion. Does that mean I should be blamed for what others have done in the name of Christianity? Of course not, just as you shouldn't blame all Muslims for the acts of a very small minority.

Again, the acts of a small minority does not justify the hatred of everyone in the group. Any religion, when taken to the extreme, is capable of some pretty bad stuff.

EDIT: Let's get back on track, and not turn this into an anti-Muslim thing. We've been down that road before, and it doesn't end well. This issue isn't what religion it is, but rather how funds are being used.

The formatting is off, but for those who won't click the link, here's PSU's "insight".

If ever there's been a time when an emoticon applied perfectly, this is it.

:rolleyes:

I don't have a problem with UM doing something to help support a religious minority on campus. I do have a problem with the fact that if the religious majority wanted some sort of convenience the entire county would blow up. Part of protecting the minority from the majority is that the majority presumably gets its way every once in a while. In this country we've practically made it a sin to be a white Christian male. I'm for equal rights and practices for everyone, and everyone includes the average guy.