July console sales numbers......
 

June numbers were similar to the previous months in North America. Wii way ahead, PS2 in 2nd, 360 in 3rd and the PS3 bringing up the rear. Pretty mundane stuff.

Finally, there's something interesting to discuss with the PS3 price drop. Here is the data for the first two weeks in July (no handhelds in these numbers).


Some points:

1. Wii continues to climb the ladder, selling 12% more Wii's than the previous week.

2. PS3 sales jump from 17.7K to 41K.

3. PS2 sales only dipped by about 2K. I thought they would drop a bit more with a cheaper PS3 as an alternative, but it appears that the PS2 and PS3 sales numbers don't necessarily correlate in that if one sells more, the other one dips.

4. 360 sales go up very slightly. Good sign for them that the PS3 sales increase didn't take away their steady sales numbers.

5. Who were the 11 people that bought an Xbox?????

I should note that these are numbers from vgchartz, so they may be somewhat inaccurate, but they provide a good trending indicator overall.

Lol, I want to buy an XBox next month so I can say I'm one of the handful that did. :D

Looks like a good month (sales increase) for everyone, with a big jump by the PS3. I wonder if the handheld is about the same? If all the consoles went up, did the handhelds go down?

Nothing really changes for the long term forecast.

Wii is still going to dominate this generation. The PS3 is still in a world of hurt. The price drop generated about 23k units. But it still just barely clipped the 360 and it's pretty safe assumption to make that they are going to rubber band back a little after the initial influx.

The number that continues to amaze me is the PS2. Just an incredible system.

I'd buy a PS2 right now if I could get the thicker ones. I don't like the thin ones, so I'm borrowing a friend's thick PS2 right now.

The people picking up a PS2 now probably won't consider a PS3 till 2010 or later. The price of the PS2 is a major attraction to people who are looking for a cheap console with a ton of available games.

That's hot.

...

I'm going to respectfully disagree on the point of the Wii dominating this generation. The numbers are great so far and that will never take away from what they have done to this point, but I still firmly believe that in a year or so, the fad will fade away and the 360 and PS3 will catch up quite a bit over the long haul.

Certainly not saying that the Wii sucks or will get hammered in the end, but given that console generations are going to be 7-10 years, first year sales are huge, but not the be all end all. Once more people start entering the HDTV market (along with the PS3 establishing a better overall game base) and another wave of price cuts (I know, lots of conditions, but none that are that far fetched for either the 360 or PS3), the two will start the road back to evening out this battle.

Will they ever match the overall console number sales, maybe not. Will the Wii still be outselling them in total sales at a 2 or 3 to 1 clip in 5 years, I just can't see it (talking overall sales at that point, not just current/monthly).

Complete agreement on the PS2 numbers. I have a hard time believing any system from the current gen will have that sort of staying power at the next switch over.

Again, just my opinion, feel free to flame away (not directed at you on that one Troy, just in general).

I'm not sure what'll be in the future, but you really think it'll be 2014-2017 until we see the next generation?

It will be interesting to see how much of that gain in sales the PS3 will keep in the weeks and months to come.

Travis,

The Wii is going to continue to have a base the other two systems don't:

It appeals to both children and adults and it's the cheapest of the three.

It's going to stay strong. I think it will win this round by millions. And no, I don't think the next generation is 10 years away. Sony would like you to believe it is, but I don't think so. 7 years max.

Talking about the Wii winning...the console sales numbers are not the end all, be all of the bottom line. Game sales make up a lot of it for everyone involved, and something tells me, long term, the expensive systems will sell more games than the Wii, which will mostly sell a few select first party titles en masse.

Wii and PS3 both came out in late 06 (PS2 in late 2000 and the Gamecube in late 2001) with the 360 in late 05 (Xbox near the end of 2001). Wouldn't surprise me at all if this one goes 10 years, though certainly not my area of expertise and I have 0 contacts in the industry to know what is under development or if one of the three may try to get a jump on the other two next time around.

Just seems like a bit of a trend given how much work goes into the design of the console and how long it then takes for developers to fully utilize the differing features to each (ie: Wii likely getting better 3rd party games next year with their sprint start and the PS3 now getting more games developed for their system rather than ports of 360 titles) along with MS and Sony each really developing systems that are intended for the next wave of home theatre technology. I'd be surprised if the gap between consoles shrunk anyways.

When you get a huge install base, it does a few things for you.

1) More developers make games for your system.
2) That means more games, with more people who own the system to buy those games, it equals major sales for any "hit" title.

As of now the Wii is selling a ton of games. I think it continues. I think it has more "sleeper" hits than the other two systems as we go forward. Time will tell.

Not to mention the different controller set per game that litter the display cases at Futureshop/Bestbuy ;)

They've done a great job marketing themselves as the cheaper alternative, but I wonder when all is said and done, once you factor in kids and mom/dad giving in to not just the game, but the game specific *extras* just how quickly they make up that cost differential.

Certainly not berating them for it, it's great marketing and hides the price a lot better than slapping a $599 price tag on the box.

This time next year is when the Wii will actually be coming into its own, not a becoming a fading fad.

what "game specific controllers"? I havent found a game yet I can't play with either my nunchuk/wiimotes, or a gamecube controller. dont forget, the sixaxis controllers are $50 a pop too.

If you think this is just a fad, you're missing whats going on here. Honestly, I think for the next 2 years or so, the Wii is going to continue to widen the weekly sales gap. Nintendo is giving the thing away to nursing homes. What do you think Gramma is gonna get the kiddies for christmas?

I think the Wii is going to crush the PS3 and 360 almost as badly as the PS2 crushed the Xbox and Gamecube

Someone mentioned in a previous version of this thread that a third party developer could invent a game for the Wii that really takes unique advatage of the Wiimote and become a major system seller--a'la Guitar Hero.

It may, of course, not happen. But with an install base that large, you would have to think that it is now worth the development costs for people to try.

And, even if 3rd party developers never create the Holy Grail game for the Wii, the fact that they are even going to try is a huge win for the Wii. They will not be the system of poorly done ports and kids games like I initially expected.

I don't have any console yet (haven't since Super Nintendo), but that's what I'm thinking about getting. Cheap, established base of games, plus cutting edge matters little to me......especially since I'm not sure how much I'll like console games.

Not saying you can't play them with the stock controllers, but I've seen more than a few different controller sets sitting at Futureshop around here. It's a great marketing plan for game interaction like the Wii has to make controllers specific to a game where they can so long as they can keep the price of those controller manageable. Of course kids are going to want to use a sword and shield for Zelda if they can, why not cash in on that. A lot easier sell for interactive gaming than it is for couch'n'go.

That is it, i can't handle the wiiboys anymore. I will have to start driving all bigtrucks with wii's enroute to stores, off the road. Lets see those sale numbers then. :evil laugh:

I just haven't seen any evidence that Nintendo is going to rally massive amounts of third party support around the Wii yet. They haven't had anything third party support in 10 years, with or without an installed user base.

Just to add my two cents, I think the large installed base of PS2 gamers will lead to increased sales of the PS3 down the road. As a parent of three kids that have a PS2, I'm leaning heavily towards the PS3 due to the large game library that we have already accumulated.

There is no chance this generation will last 10 years. It will most likely last 3-5 years like previous generations.

There are a few reasons for this.

1 - While game console specs are pretty much set in stone, PC hardware updates all the time and in a few years console games will look terrible compared games you can play on a fairly basic spec PC

2 - Microsoft and Sony can not risk the chance of the other company releasing a new model and being left behind with dated hardware. I heard rumors as long ago as last summer than the PS4 was planned for approx 2010.

There will never be a console generation that lasts more than a few years.

They also have not had a customer base like they do now since the days of the Super Nintendo.

We'll see. I love the Wii, but the lack of success for 3rd party titles so far is certainly a concern for any publisher looking to jump on the Wii gravy train - so far the gravy train is only operating for Nintendo.

That's not to say that 3rd party publishers won't try and that some 3rd party game is going to break through and become a huge hit, but it hasn't happened so far. A large install base doesn't mean as much when consumers haven't been buying a lot of 3rd party games.

Why? Does your PS2 no longer work?

I guess I don't see the logic here - if you're willing to get a next-gen system, what does it matter what you already have? If you and your kids still want to play your PS2 games after you get a new system (most don't), why couldn't you just play them on the PS2 you already have? Why wouldn't you get the next-gen system that has the next-gen game library that best fits your tastes?

I think you can look at the DS to see the kind of explosion that will happen when a 3rd party game really utilizes the hardware correctly (for DS, it was Meteos).

also, to follow up on dawgfan's point, I would lean towards a next-gen that is compatible with a different older system than you already have. The Wii was more attractive than the PS3 in backwards compatibility to me because of all the cheap Gamecube games that are now open to me (for the cheap PS2 games, I have a PS2 already so the PS3 adds nothing). I am buying killer games I've never played for $5 and less that I can play on my Wii because of the gamecube library.

My PS2 is still working, but showing it's age. It wouldn't be a big surprise if it quit working tomorrow. The thing to me is that it's been a very good system. Since I had such good luck with it, I'm inclined to stick with the same company. Brand loyalty is something that could help PS3 sales down the line.

Not that it means much absent context, but 14 of the top 20 selling Wii games have been third party games.

Now, see, if the majority of the third party games weren't utter dreck, that would mean a lot more than "six million sellers from Nintendo and everything else after that."

Yeah, I've had similar thoughts. My PS2 is quite old now, nearly first gen, and it's showing signs of flaking out. Doesn't really want to read PS1 discs anymore, is much, much pickier about what DVDs it likes than other DVD players. But I would still really want to play PS2 games if I got a new system (SUIKODEN 5!), and that would lean me towards a PS3. And while Playstation hardware has been generally bleh for me (my PS1 broke like two months after I got it, during the middle of FF7, made me really mad), the X-Box has had similar alarming problems.

I'm interested to see if there is going to be a "Madden" upswing for the ps3. Last year it was a launch title(I think), but that title a pretty good seller, especially in the first month or so. Perhaps instead of buying the ps2 version, people will finally upgrade to the new console.

Wii may be selling lots of units, but I just don't see any games for the system that have any real staying power outside of maybe Zelda.

360 trounces both Wii and PS3 for game library quality right now, but my gut feeling tells me that PS3 will eventually close the library quality and quantity game, with the Wii left in the dust as far as library options go.

LOL... For the guy that is going to run the Wii truck off the road, Please open the back and pick me up one.:) I still can not lay my hands on a Wii anywhere.


I predict that yesterday's PS2 buyers will turn into next years Wii buyers.



Also, does the Wii offer an internet browser?

While I love my PS2 (launch PS2 and still going strong), The fact that Sony is toying with consumers with a price drop/hike, etc makes me wonder if I will ever buy a PS3. I'd seriously consider it if it dropped a bit more in price, but that is probably a long while away.

Right now, it isn't feasible for me to get one since I work 50+ hours a week plus have an hour commute on top of that not to mention that currently we have gone to mandatory 6 day work weeks (60+ hrs/wk). As a work-induced casual gamer it is not worth it for me to plunk down $500+ for a system that won't get used much.

If we assume your points to be true, there's absolutely no reason that the Wii should be anywhere other than 3rd behind the PS3 and 360 because processing power = sales, right?

Most of the industry people that I've chatted with believe that this generation will be around for quite awhile. The 360 and PS3 were honestly released at least 1 year before they should have been released. Processing power is a really nice feature, but you have to be able to release the technology where you can assure the quality control of that technology along with a price point that will appeal to the mass market.

Nintendo is winning right now because they didn't stretch on their product. It may not be the biggest or the best system, but it's a reliable system at a price point that the mass market can handle.

Sony and MS aren't going to be in any big hurry to jump into the next generation for quite awhile. They have to stretch out this generation at this point because the most profitable years are the later years when costs are low. Rushing out a Xbox 720 or PS4 too quickly could make the current console owners feel slighted, lead to quality control concerns, and result in another system that's overpriced for a market that is obviously very sensitive to overpriced consoles.

Yeah the whole "omg third parties will never sell games on a nintendo console" thing is a bit overblown. Tiger Woods only got average reviews and sold pretty well here (coming out seven months after 07 on the other consoles) and even better in Europe. RE4 is a two year old game that will make the June top ten. Red Steel and Raving Rabbids are over or close to a million worldwide, Trauma Center: Second Opinion was the biggest seller Atlus has ever had in the US.

Other than RE4 these games fall into the good but not great category (except for Red Steel which got poor reviews) yet have all done well. If third parties make good games they will sell. If they quick port some licensed piece of shit then they shouldn't expect the game to sell like hotcakes.

Yes, a pretty good one too (considering you're browsing without a keyboard/mouse).

I picked it up when it was a free download, but now they're charging for it (something like 5 bucks, I think).

Are you talking games that are currently released?

There are games on the way that will definitely have staying power, Mario and Metroid to name a couple.

The brand loyalty factor is a BIG reason the PS3 has failed spectacularly. With their brand loyalty, it should have locked them into huge release numbers. It should have been right at the Wii level. Instead, they are sucking wind.

Here is the problem with everyone talking about a Sony comeback:

They are over 6 MILLION units behind TWO seperate consoles. That's not something you "fix" in a couple of years. The PS2 never had to worry about that. They competed with the Dreamcast (very briefly at the start) and the Xbox (toward the very end after it was to late for the Xbox to make any kind of a run). The Gamecube? It was the kids system.

Now they are in the hole 6 million units to two companies and those two companies have superior fall/Christmas lineups. They should consider themselves VERY, VERY lucky if they don't go down a ton more this holiday season.

Nintendo and MS aren't just going to stop and roll over for Sony. Their sales have been spectacular (Nintendo) and steady (MS). Even if Sony figures it out, they have a ways to go to resolve this.

FWIW.......Sony can (and will) sell a few million units worldwide during the weeks when Metal Gear Solid 4, Final Fantasy XIII, and FF XIII Versus (especially in Asia where MMO's are extremely popular) are released. Now you can argue that Sony is going to have some problems in the short term (next year or so) and will likely just equal the 360 sales while waiting for those games to be released, but the system will have some major titles by the '08 holiday season (and likely a $399 or less price) by that point. They easily could 'fix' that difference in the next 18-24 months if they can get all their major franchises (FF XIII, MGS4, GT5) out in time for that '08 holiday season.

It's just not gonna happen. This gap won't be closed in 18 to 24 months. Just my opinion. . . I could be wildly off base. But I don't see any way in hell it happens.

I'd expect it to be more of an upswing for the 360 since the NCAA version on the PS3 runs only at 30 FPS compared to 60 on the 360, and there is a quote by an EA exec out there that it will be the same for Madden. There is also another quote out there that Madden may run at 60 FPS on the PS3, but that confusion would seem to push people towards the 360 who were going to upgrade for just that game, or those who definitely wanted the smoother version of NCAA.

I agree. Don't forget that MS will get a HUGE bump when Halo3 comes out (probably enough to offset or atleast minimize the FF release). They will also get a bump for Madden given they have the most next-gen units out now. Plus, you have the image issue - no one like's to bet on the losing horse and there's a chance that Halo3 + a good holiday season for Wii/XBox starts the PS3 down a path of less relevancy to 3rd parties (esp from an exclusive standpoint).

The PS3 badly needs FF out ASAP. If that slips too far behind Halo on release date, it could be a tough couple years for Sony.

That will be interesting to watch as well. I'm not sure that the bump for Halo will be nearly as significant as some think. I think that most of the people that are Halo fans already have a 360. We'll have to see how that all plays out.

FF is obviously going to create a major bump in all three major gaming regions. I don't think MS can do enough with Halo in North America to offset that bump, but it's certainly not going to hurt MS at all in the short run. They need some good press at this point to offset the articles that continue to come out concerning quality control in the 360.

FYI for those in Europe. It appears that the much-rumored price cut on the PS3 will likely happen at the Leipzig game show in late August. Food for thought if you're waiting for a price cut on the PS3.

FYI - MS isn't trying to win the worldwide console war. They know they have no chance in hell in Japan. They are trying to win the US and Euro markets. They also didn't expect to "win" this round in either of those countries. They wanted to strip some market share away and start making some money next year or the year after to set themselves up for the next gen.

They never counted on Sony bumbling the release of the PS3 so badly to where they could win those markets. Even with Japan, MS has a very, very good chance of beating Sony this round, even in the long haul. This is more than they ever could have hoped to expect.

I don't get this. Halo 3 won't cause a bump because all fans already have 360s, but all the FF fans don't already have PS3s? What's the difference here that makes you say that? Why wouldn't a bunch of Halo fans have held off on buying the 360 until 3 came out?

Currently released, yes. Mario and Metroid will indeed have staying power for most gamers, I agree.

Most of my friends that have 360's are Halo fans. They went ahead and purchased the console for either next-gen sports games last year or Gears of War, knowing that they would eventually have Halo 3 as well.

There's a lot of people holding off on any PS3 purchase until it's confirmed (basically when it's released) that it's a PS3 exclusive. It's even moreso that way in Japan. The price drop will get a few to jump, but the majority will wait until the big titles are released or they get one for Christmas (so they don't have to pay for it themselves).

The one friend of mine that wants a PS3 for MGS4, already bought one at launch. So... based on my knowledge, I'm not sure how much of a spike MGS4 and FF will have for the PS3, or Halo 3 for the 360. But I'll guess it does spike. :)

Honest question: has any system ever come from behind to win a 'generation' when behind by a significant amount after the first year?

I've always had the impression that the first year is make-or-break for a system, and if it isn't Top 2 at that point it never will be.

This is exactly where I was last October. Hadn't had a console in years, didn't care necessarily about being cutting edge, really just wanted it for Guitar Hero. Since then, I've added about a dozen games, mostly older, cheap games, and have enjoyed the system as a casual gamer. I'm not sure when I'll consider getting a next gen, but my guess is probably at the same point I got the PS2 - towards the end of its cycle, when the "next big thing" is on its way.

I'm not sure we've had a situation even remotely similar to this before. We've got a new 'underpowered' system selling extremely well and a last-gen workhorse that continues to sell more units than either of the 'next-gen' systems. Some would question from those numbers whether the 'next generation' has even started yet. It appears that most consumers are more than happy with the last-gen technology right now.

People keep bringing up the "Wii is underpowered" thing. This seems another case where the big guys (and the supreme geeks) just dont get it. The Public doesnt want $600 graphics cards. The public doesnt want cutting edge. They want good, at a good price.

People keep pushing the "Wii isnt HD" thing. The percentage of homes with HDTVs is still under 20%. Most people DONT CARE if the system supports HD. Most people DONT CARE about HDDVD, or Blu-Ray. They just know they dont want to spend $400+ for a videogame. They want a system thats fun to play, and is reasonably priced. The PS3 isnt either one of those(no games). The Wii is both. The 360 is fun to play, but for most of us, is STILL too expensive.

I was a Sony Fanboy. I owned a PS. I Owned a PSOne. I Owned a PS2. I owned a PSP. I own a sony digital camera, and a sony digital camcorder. I bought a Wii back in February. In March, I dropped my PS2 and all my PS2/PS1 games off at my brother's house. Sony REALLY blew it this generation.


The longer FF13 slips back, the more I think its NOT going to be a PS3 exclusive.

I think you missed my point. I put quotes around the word 'underpowered' for a reason. People argue that, but I was indicating that I didn't agree with that argument. 'Underpowered' is only in the eye of the given consumer making the purchase.

I do find fault with your argument that the public doesn't want cutting edge. Millions of 60 GB PS3's or premium 360 would be flying off the shelves if they were priced at the $250 price point that the Wii currently occupies. People want cutting edge, they just don't want it at the price it's currently selling, especially when there's affordable alternatives like the PS2 and Wii to keep them busy until the prices do fall.

I was trying to use your post as a jump off point more than contradict it. I'm just not that clear.

You can't seperate cutting edge and the associated price of cutting edge. 640mb graphics cards would be flying off the shelves at Best Buy if they were priced at $99. But theyre not, theyre $599.

Honestly, for the average family, the Wii is STILL too expensive, and thats why the PS2 is selling so well. Sony/MS just dont realize that most families dont have an extra $600 sitting around. Right now, a Wii will cost you $400 (system, 2nd controller setup, 2 games, etc). Thats STILL too much for most people. The same thing with the PS2 costs you $150. Thats what people want to spend. The PS3 being about $800 with an extra controller, cables, game, etc, is absurd.


FWIW, If the PS3 was $250, I STILL think the Wii would be outselling it. The Wii opens up gaming to a whole bunch of people who weren't previously targets.

Agree fully with your first statement. Totally disagree with your second statement. The PS3's $600 release price was a HUGE turnoff to anyone who already owned another system and a huge price barrier to anyone who had any notion of owning a PS3. My point is not that the PS3 would be blowing the Wii out of the water by any means, but the Wii wouldn't be winning by anything close to the substantial margin that it holds right now. The 360 would sell just as well at $250.

I agree that the gap wouldnt be as wide, but I still think there'd be a gap. The Wii appeals to a whole segment of gamers that the other two options dont. If the Ps3 debuted at $250, I agree. But dropping the price to $250 right now still woudnt get them back in. Theres too many people who budget for 1 system, and have already made that purchase.

I'm a hardcore gamer. I own a Wii now. Why? Because the PS3/360 can't keep up with my PC, and are more expensive. The Wii gives me something totally different.

I own both a PS3 and a Wii. I use the PS3 for my personal gaming and bring out the Wii for parties. I have a PC, but I can't stand using it for anything more than text sim gaming. Every game requires a new card here or a new driver there. Way too much of a pain in the ass for my taste. I just upgrade to a new laptop every 5 years or so for text sim purposes.

Lol, thats because you're using laptops. A $2500 laptop can't keep up with a $600 PC

Epic Games president has announced that Unreal Tournament 2007 will have cross-platform play for the PS3 and PC. The 360 games will be separate on the Live server. Interesting move as Microsoft has been strongly advocating the ease of cross platform gaming between the 360 and PC. Microsoft may have to change their stance on mods to avoid being shut out of cross-platform play on games where mods are available. Interesting situation to watch to see if any other developers use mods on the PS3 or if it's just an isolated situation.

I've got 1 HD TV, but I wouldn't hook up my console to it even if I had one that was HD. The console is in the basement, and that's where it will stay. In fact, I don't even have it hooked up to the internet.

I have two desktop computers as well. I understand that a laptop isn't as easy to modify for cheap. Desktops are expensive as well. You can spend way over $800 to get a good gaming experience on your PC.

The difficult part of assessing that question is that, when you think about it, we're in the 7th generation or so of hardware, depending on how you reckon it, but there have really only been three generations - since 1996 or so - where you actually had more than two viable competitors at any given time.

The last remotely analogous situation I can think of was the 16-bit era. Sega launched Genesis in '89, and on the strength of Sonic the Hedgehog and EA Sports, it raced out to a significant market share over the previously dominant Nintendo hegemony. Nintendo finally got into the 16-bit game in 1991, and ultimately wound up with 55% of the market share.

That sort of addresses the latter point - first year isn't necessarily make-or-break, but it is incredibly circumstantial. If you have three competing machines, and two of them sell very well, you'd better have a damn compelling case to make to the public for why they should also buy machine #3, because just on the strength of not being Top 2 right away you have a tougher row to hoe.

This generation isn't like the last, though; last time, you had three competitors all kind of going after the same market, and while Sony was pretty universally successful, Nintendo and Microsoft kind of traded punches.

This time, Nintendo is universally successful, but they're doing it on the whole "Blue Ocean" marketing strategy. Their success isn't necessarily parasitic with respect to the other two consoles, and so the Wii is not directly inhibiting the success (or lack thereof) of the PlayStation 3.

Don't try to make a valid post with MizzouBBfan, he has ps3 glasses, always will. Most of his posts make no f'n sense, yet he still tries to vailidate the exsistance of the ps3.

I'm so tired of his console sales, game sales, and general "360 sucks" and "ps3 totally rulz duDez" posts.... although we still have the U of Missouri in common.. go figure.

Do most think it's the price that's kept the PS3 in 4th place, or it is the fact the the Wii is more easily accessable to non-gamers?

I mean, do you think the PS3 would have Wii-like numbers if the PS3 was, say a $300 system?

I think the price and the lack of quality games is the reason why the PS3 is staying on store shelves.

For me, I don't think I would have one at $300 either. I got a 360 at launch and shouldn't have. None of the launch titles justified the purchase for me. After the first 2 weeks, mine sat unused until Oblivion came out the following March. So, I don't think I would have made the same mistake with the PS3.

Those were like the Japanese numbers for the XBox all last gen. It was comical to see stuff like the Wonderswan and PSX outselling it.

SI

A big fat "No" but thanks for playing. The console numbers for when an "A+" game come out are typically in the low hundred thousand range, even early in a generation. It's not a bad number but it's nothing in the millions. The only time console numbers reach even close to 1M per week are the last week in November and the first couple in December and that's, of course, for an entirely different reason.

SI

I could be wrong but wasn't Nintendo leading during the N64/PSX days when Mario 64 got them off to a quick start?

SI

You know, as much as I love Reggie and his whole talk of Blue Ocean, I've seen a couple of statistics about how realistically, they're pulling in a little bit of non-gamer market but with the relatively high price point ($250 is still quite a bit), they're mostly just stealing from other systems.

SI

We went over this in another thread. Halo 2, on a system that wasn't as successful as the 360 and was being dominated by the PS2, still led to a boost of roughly 1 million or so consoles.

Halo 3 is the first Halo to be released on the 360, I think you'll see similar numbers.

I really think you've OD'd on the PS3 Kool-Aid or something because the blatant fanboyism is getting ridiculous.

Anyone see Microsoft's news for the past week?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/200...fficedoingwell
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/806/806886p1.html

Most notably:

"Microsoft announced July 5 that it would take a $1.1 billion charge to extend warranties on Xbox 360 consoles that were malfunctioning at a high rate. It had sold 11.6 million consoles as of June 30, shy of its forecast of 12 million.

What's more, Peter Moore, who oversaw the Xbox business, abruptly resigned this week to join game maker Electronic Arts. "

"As expected, the recent extension of the 360 warranty resulted in an increased operating loss of $1.2 billion, partially offset by decreasing manufacturing costs for the console.

Revenue increased for the full fiscal year, however, by 28 percent to $6.1 billion. Specifically, software revenue increased by 19 percent to $650 million. Again, though, operating loss increased by 47 percent to $1.9 billion."

So, as successful as the XBox 360 is in theory, they lost almost $2B on it this past year.

SI

They might mean sold to retailers in that 11.6 million.

There's all kinds of distinctions I can make there that really separate the mid-90s from the current market.

1) We term that the N64/PSX days now, but Sony was really an unknown quantity, a newcomer to the market. Early on it was widely considered to be more of a two-horse race - Sega and Nintendo - since those had been the main combatants in the previous generation.

Sega was not a complete unknown in the 16-bit generation. Their Mega Drive/Master System did very well in Europe and in South America, so they at least had something to build off of.

The ball got dropped by Sega launching their system six months early with no games, and by Nintendo failing to follow Super Mario 64 up with anything of note, either on the first-party or third-party fronts. Sony picked up that ball and ran like they stole something.

2) One of the ways they did that was by cultivating third-party relationships with favorable licensing terms (one of the ways Sega stole 45% of Nintendo's market share in the previous generation before trying to emulate Nintendo's licensing policies). Additionally, optical media gave them a price advantage over N64's cartridges - one of the factors that allowed them to seduce Final Fantasy away from Nintendo - and they enjoyed an architecture that developers found easier to work with than Saturn's.

This time around, they find themselves in the opposite boat. Instead of seducing third parties away from their rivals, they're finding those third parties increasingly either making titles exclusive to non-Sony consoles, or at least committing a form of e-bigamy by putting the game on PS3 and Xbox 360. The latter isn't necessarily Sony's fault, and speaks more to the financial dynamics of this generation than to anything wrong with the PlayStation itself, but you have to view that as either a direct hurdle or the removal of a previous advantage.

3) Ultimately Sony had one strong competitor to deal with in that generation. Sega shot themselves in the foot with the aborted 32X launch, and went downhill from there. This time around, Nintendo's raking in the dollars like they're going out of style, and Microsoft not only has the marketplace presence Sega was attempting to establish with the Saturn, but they have significantly greater financial resources to draw upon.

4) Sony beat Nintendo to the market. They hit American shores on 9/2/95, while the N64 didn't even hit shelves until over a year later, on September 29 the following year. Additionally, their pricing was in line with the competition. If memory serves, N64 launched at around $199. Saturn launched at $399 at E3 '95, while Sony announced a launch price point of $299 to sort of blunt the impact of the surprise launch announcement by Sega.

This time around, Sony was last to market, and with a moderate price disadvantage against Microsoft, and a significant price disadvantage against Nintendo. You can talk about the system being "future-proof" and a great value for the money, and I'll even concede those points for the purpose of this discussion.

Point is, Wii's been selling like crazy all year round because of its attractive price point compared to its rivals. If Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 were closer to Nintendo in pricing, I wonder if we'd see that phenomenon. The PlayStation 3 is not the 3DO, but it's worth noting that the $699 price point on 3DO scared away an awful lot of people.

Heck, I'm fairly certain Microsoft has sold more consoles north of $299 than any console manufacturer in history.

Wikipedia seems to back me up on that, as the Saturn - which launched at $399, remember - apparently didn't quite hit the 10 million mark.

I could keep going, but I think the essential point has been made - the market dynamic was very different in 1995 than it was in 1989, so the Genesis/PlayStation comparisons just aren't similar enough to be worth discussing in this context. Additionally, to tie the PlayStation 3 back into that general argument, their market situation and obstacles - of their own making or otherwise - are significantly more cumbersome than anything the Genesis or PlayStation had to overcome.

If Sony winds up 2nd in this race, it will be a damn fine example of bootstrapping. If they finish on top in this generation, it will be the video game equivalent of the rope-a-dope, and one of the two greatest comebacks the industry has ever seen. I'm not sure if it would top Nintendo single-handedly reviving a moribund industry in 1984, but it would be no worse than #2 to that.

Dola,

I should probably give Microsoft an asterisk on that whole "more consoles north of $299" bit, just because I haven't seen a sales breakdown between the Core and Premium/Elite SKUs. I think it's safe to say they will surpass 9.58 million Premium/Elites sold, but they may not have done so quite yet.

I've contacted Microsoft to see if I can get a breakdown on those numbers, but I don't know if they'll release them.

They knew they were going to take a bath on this gen. They knew they'd take a bath on the last gen. I'm not trying to be a fanboy in reverse here, but it's important people understand, MS knew exactly what they were getting into. The goal was always to make money the last few years of this gen and then try to be profitable next gen.

I'm not saying they'll succeed in that, but that was the goal. I could have told you what those numbers would have looked like last year. MS is putting a crapload of money into the gaming division. Not only for the 360 hardware, but all of the software developers they are snapping up. Those exclusives didn't come cheap. Nor did the repair of the 360's. But they've succeeded bigtime in one of their biggets goals. . . slash the Sony market share.

Wow - hadn't heard the Peter Moore news; that's a blow for Xbox.

As for the financials, I wonder if those numbers include the profits on 360 games (they get a cut of every 360 game sold) or if it's specific to the hardware side of the business.

That may be, but from what I can find the top 5 Wii sellers have been Nintendo games, with Rayman the highest 3rd party title at just over 1M units sold worldwide. That's certainly a decent number and almost assuredly a profitable game, but the fact is the biggest sellers for the Wii (by a big margin) have been 1st party titles.

It should also be noted that game sales in general are favoring the 360 - there seems to be more games sold per 360 than per Wii. Probably not enough of a difference yet to offset the major differences in hardware costs and the profitability Nintendo is experiencing on the hardware side (Nintendo is surely vastly more profitable at this point with the Wii than MS is with the 360), but it is certainly the more critical factor when projecting what platforms game developers will be focusing on moving forward.

Another interesting thing to watch on the console sales front the next couple of weeks. Sony is releasing a new bundle in Japan with the new release of Hot Shots Golf 5. HSG5 in Japan already has 300,000 preorders. Always been a pretty popular franchise in Japan.

Agreed. Nintendo is going down the same road they have always used. 1st party games have always been the staple of their console, good or bad. This generation hasn't been any different. I'm somewhat frustrated right now as a Wii owner because I was hoping that might change as I'm not a huge fan of the Mario franchise games in general. I'll hold off judgement until next year when more 3rd party games are supposed to be ready. I'm just hoping they aren't rushed to market.

Anyone hear more about Howard Stringer (Sony CEO) calling Steve Jobs "greedy"?

http://www.betanews.com/article/Stri...edy/1184951615

Not sure how much credence to lend to this as I haven't seen any of the original bits and haven't seen it on the tech sites I follow regularly, but given the recent foot-in-mouth syndrome from Sony I'm not surprised either.

Another console post of the week by Bill Harris. Discussing the failure rate of the 360 and concerns that it likely is at least 25%, if not more. Also, two new class-action lawsuits (one for disc scratching and one for reliability) have been brought against MS and the 360........

http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/2...microsoft.html

I hope that Skip guy is right and they do a $100 price cut in the fall. :D

I also hope the failure rate goes down a lot.

It doesn't change the fact that MS is still kicking PS3's ass and is going to keep doing it with the games that are on the way.

Exactly. Gamespot released the top 20 game sales of June. No PS3 titles made the top 20. They were 5 or 6 360 titles in the top 20 (and 5 or 6 Wii titles.)

Actually, here is the list copied from Gamespot:

1. Mario Party 8--Nintendo--Wii
2. Wii Play with Wii Remote--Nintendo--Wii
3. Pokemon Diamond--Nintendo--DS
4. Pokemon Pearl--Nintendo--DS
5. Forza Motorsport 2--Microsoft--Xbox 360
6. Guitar Hero II bundle--Activision--PS2
7. Guitar Hero II bundle--Activision--Xbox 360
8. Pokemon Battle Revolution--Nintendo--Wii
9. Resident Evil Wii Edition--Capcom--Wii
10. The Darkness--2K Games--Xbox 360
11. Naruto: Ultimate Ninja 2--Namco Bandai--PS2
12. Transformers: The Game--Activision--PS2
13. Tenchu Z--Microsoft--Xbox 360
14. New Super Mario Bros.--Nintendo--DS
15. Tomb Raider: Anniversary--Eidos--PS2
16. Super Paper Mario--Nintendo--Wii
17. Transformers: The Game--Activision--Xbox 360
18. MLB '07: The Show--SCEA--PS2
19. Big Brain Academy--Nintendo--Wii
20. DiRT--Codemasters--Xbox 360

I know it's more fun to post mindless flames, but the discussion does have merit. If MS incurs further expenses and bad PR in the form of lawsuits or further recalls/warranty extension, it's going to hurt the 360 in a big way. The 360's failure rate is honestly putting the old PS1/PS2 failure rates to shame, and that's saying something.

This bad PR has been going on for a long time now, yet the 360 continues to outsell the PS3 by a wide margin.

Honestly, the top sales charts don't provide a good measurement of success for a console. As dawgfan had stated before, the key indicator is attach rate to determine how successful a console currently is and how developers will respond to that console. The 360 is in first, Wii in second and PS3 third.

I realize that the order would be similar right now in regards to the top sales chart, but that chart could be misleading. If Sony had 3 of the top 5 at some point in the future with 3 AAA titles coming out quickly, that still wouldn't mean that was the best console. It would just mean that those games were good games. Attach rate is a much better consideration in determining the number of quality games without being weighted by the number of consoles.

I disagree. The queries by the Australian and EU consumer boards along with the class action lawsuits and MS recent extention of the warranty have all occured in the past 2 months.

Also, the 360 is currently losing on a weekly sales basis in all three major markets.

Which branch of Sony do you work for?

Obviously, I work for Sony because I have harshly criticized the management of Sony in addition to their slow price cut. :rolleyes:

I did nothing more than post something that a respected blogger posted about the 360 situation, which is obviously a big topic right now. I certainly think that's relevant to the discussion. Bill Harris wrote a critical assessment of the situation. Is he an employee of Sony too?

Another post by Bill Harris concerning the just released June numbers. PS3, PS2, and Wii sales remain steady or slightly increase. 360 sales fall 33% in the first month after quality control issues hit the mainstream press (European sales fall over 40%). Also, note that these numbers are from last month before the price drop on the PS3.

Also, discussion on 3rd party Wii games and Japanese TV claims that Wii is lowering TV viewership.

Interesting totals regarding top 10 sales by console for the month as well (for EF27)

Wii: 4
PS2: 3
360: 3

Insane that the PS2 is still selling a ton of games. I'm sure games will continue to come out for the console as long as games sell. GH: The 80s will likely sell a lot of copies for the PS2 this month.

http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/2...plemental.html

And yet, the 360 continues to sell more than twice as many PS3's.

Note that is last month, before the PS3 price drop. There's certainly nothing unexpected in that.

That is not surprising. The PS2 is very popular and has such a huge advantage in install base. Of course, it is going to continue to sell games well, particularly among families who cannot afford or do not want to buy a next gen system. You mentioned the attach rate, but that is also abysmal for the PS3 compared to the 360.

I like how you just pick out what makes Sony look good. Harris talks about why he thinks there hasn't been a 360 price drop yet, and it makes sense. Could result in more sales later in the year. He also mentions a good point about 3rd-party Wii games, and the fact that Wii owners want to buy software this generation.

This generation is really interesting. :)

And when sales of the PS3 peaks next month that's not going to be unexpected either. It's what happens in August and September that's going to be interesting.