Open letter to Skydog, moderator of the FOF board
 

Skydog,

I am very disapointed to still see that "sticky" thread of yours praying the militaries at the top of the board (among other great initiatives of yours).
I'd like to -respectfully- express my exasperation as you being the moderator of this board.
All you did since becoming the official dictator here (a military word which you might understand first hand this time )was not only promote but make sure everyone was obligated (forced ?) to follow your ideas and convictions...or else you were quick to display your "hatred" towards these people (me included but this is not an issue nor the question to this point).

Basically, all I see here is that most FOF related threads are disapearing one by one...this has become everything but a football, let alone FOF, board and you don't encourage things to change since you insist with your personal thread (that are YOUR point of view and not necessarily everyone's) about your personal beliefs/adorations (sometimes you do scare me with this) at the TOP of the board, un-removalbe and un-answerable : so to make sure that you are un-contested.

Do what you please now, hopefully you won't delete this tread as you were quick to post my last PM (which you were right to do so). This time I need no cover, I am respectfully disgusted by your managing this board as you made it all but what it used to be.

this is a shame and this is my opinon.

just a reminder before you start bashing out loud the "he's not here anymore and comes back to piss off, what a jerk" thing : I am still a member of this board, and I am free to comeback whenever I want and express my non-football thoughts since this is the main thing here now. thank you.

See? Now isn't that so much easier than when you rant against the moderator without coming off like a complete jackass, and insulting the far, far majority of the board's membership with ridiculous accusations and extremely poor word choice?

I think you'll get a lot more constructive posts with this than your last one, so kudos to you for learning from your grievous error.

Oh, your comments? Poppycock. But that's another matter.

From: a member of a terrorist country

CR

First of all, the "sticky" that you refer to actually is devoted to the members of this board who are away. The sticky itself makes no judgment on the right or wrong of why they've been called up, simply that they're away and we wish them a speedy return.

If that offends you then you've got some serious problems.

BTW, I've seen more FOF threads in the past week than I've seen here in the past couple of months... but that's neither here nor there.

Re: Open letter to Skydog, moderator of the FOF board
 

Okay, Darkiller, I'd like to say, that I have loved your input when it comes to FOF. You are a very dedicated member to the game, and your insight and constant tinkering, have helped countless members of the board. I've enjoyed your SF dynasties.

But enough, there are still coalition soliders being killed. There is still disorder in Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Israel, and Palestine.

I can respect your anti-American views, I can even understand your anger at being bashed again and again for being French, but I for one, am glad for that sticky. Not so much as a sign of sticking it to the enemies, but that the "coalition" troops do come home safe...why is there such disgust at that? Because this is a football board, please look at the posts, it is more than that.


I don't believe Skydog forces you to post here. I certainly don't agree with all of Skydog's beliefs, but I have never felt coerced in supporting them. Nor have I felt Skydog has "hated" anyone, please show me some proof please.


Most Americans/British/Australian/any other coalition nation (pro-war, pro-peace) who post on this board would agree that we all want our troops to come home safe and sound.

I think most of the posts about football are disappearing because
a: season's over
b: FOF football just wasn't the same exciting, engaging product.


Hey you have the right to be disgusted, but don't play the martyr card, it belittles you...I doubt anyone else could have done the job as well as Skydog, there have been many critical issues, but the board is still here, it's new and improved, working better...Skydog isn't forcing me to be patriotic, isn't forcing me to buy his CDs...he's allowing you to post your vitriol, perhaps he's not the closed-minded one?


I agree...it is a shame.


Very true, but be constructive, not a mindless rant. You are lashing out, and you are free to come back and express your views, but the same goes for everyone else that is here (yes, even you Mr Buttercup).

Humdedumde...where do I begin....

1. The thread in question was requested by a board member, who strongly encouraged me to post such a thread, stickied and closed.

2. What is your problem with wishing our friends from this board a safe return??? To put it bluntly, it sounds like you wish that Ardent Enthusiast, Lenoidas, and other FOFC'ers serving in the military had died, rather than returned home safely. I'm sorry to sound so harsh, but I can't think of any other way to interpret your complaint.

3. It is interesting that among all the folks on this board who are/were passionately against the war, you are the only one who has expressed ANY complaint about that thread.

4. With regards to non-FOF posts...do you REALLY think that I can control what topics people post about, or that doing so would be a good idea??? If I tried to dictate everything on this board, it would die very quickly.

5. Please tell me you're speaking out of your emotions, and not from logic, because if you REALLY think that everyone here follows my ideas and convictions, then something is seriously amiss here. There are posts every day (actually probably every hour) on this message board that go against my ideas and convictions that are allowed to stay up without any comment whatsoever from me, and certainly not "expressing my hatred," as you accused me of.

6. If I AM a "dictator," then I am a pretty poor one. See #5. There is so much on here that goes against my personal convictions that it isn't even funny, but somehow as "dictator" I don't use whatever admin powers I have to bring things into line with my personal convictions. I guess I need to go to dictator school. Since they say "those who can't, teach", maybe that is what Saddam is doing these days--teaching dictator's classes. Since apparently you wish he was still in power over there, maybe it'll make you happy if I learn a few things from him....

Ta ta for now.

--Ben

Skydog, it is indeed high time for you to remove the following thread at the TOP of the board, un-removalbe and un-answerable :
"Announcement: SLIGHTLY MODIFIED FORUM RULES"

It has been there way too long already !!!


(sorry guys, but stupid humor is my way of dealing with this heavy stuff... there's enough shit in real life, we don't need any more on this board IMHO...)

Funny you should say that...I was JUST looking at it and saying to myself, "why is that still there?" I thought it was only going to be up for a week. It will be down before most/any of you read this message.

i hope this thread does not get ugly

I prefer my froggies fantastic and flying...but that's just me.

You and me both :D

To add to this thread, I really don't see what's so offensive in that sticky. I reread it and it's not saying in any way that we hope our away friends killed a lot of people or anything, it simply says we wish they take good care and come back safe. No harm in that... I don't know Leonidas very much but I've exchange regularly with Ardent over the last month or so, mostly because of our common interest in Hattrick, and I wouldn't want him hurt in any way...

Just my canadian 2 cents, which every day are worth a little more ;)

FM

No, there is nothing "offensive" in that sticky. of course not ; and no, Skydog, I don't cheer for our FOFC members who went there do die !!! (where's your mind on this ?). My point, which I'm exasperated with, is that these messages HAVE NOTHING TO DO HERE.
If you pray for them, fine (and you'll be surprised to hear that I did too) but no way I am going to give it some exposure on a board like this one ; For what sake ? what is the purpose ? to make you look good ? grateful ??
And to see that week after weeks after weeks it is still there, makes me turn green.

it's there so that when our friends like Ardent manage to check in, they know they're not forgotten. Again, what's the big freakin' deal on this? Why does it make you turn green? All the crap to complain about in this world (or on this board for that matter) and this is what you come up with?

I disagree 100% with you on that. Yes, this is Front Office Football Central, but clearly it is also an online community. Members of this community have been sent into harm's way. I think it is a good thing to have an expression of support from the community, and you're not going to sway me on that opinion.

the thing is : I agree on this whole heartedly.
It is a community.
Except when things are not "in the mold" then the "community" gets pretty excited and the "community" forgets a lot of things...the "community" doesn't like to hear someone say something that it doesn't bear listening and the community reacts violently etc..etc...

I'm not gonna change you on this and you won't either.
Just for the sake of the "community", I felt I had to express my individual point of view, now the chief sticks with his sticky...and the community stands still.

That's indeed how it works generally in a "community".

I don't get what you're saying here. Please elucidate.

No, Darkiller, the majority of the community doesn't like to hear what you say. But, it is your right to say it. Kudos for doing so, if it is what you believe. We, however, also have a right to say your opionion on this matter is crap.

nope. you're clever enough to understand.
and I'm sure you already did anyway. It's not an issue.

Let me elucidate. We're all Nazi's because we see nothing wrong with wishing other members of our community a safe return from war.

No. I really don't get what you're trying to say in that paragraph. I've re-read it a couple of times.

I am not crazy about the sticky either. I would rather we express our feelings and sentimentality through dirty limmericks.

I'm just waiting for that hockey sticky to come down (and I generally like hockey).

Are the playoffs over?

As soon as the Cup is over it'll be down.

I've seen this a few times now, would you prefer that we have 8 or 9 threads going with hockey, or just 1, so we don't clutter the board?

I know they're not over - it's just that the NHL playoffs or so dang long!!! :D

Ok, aside from that, I'm done with expressing my "political" issues.
As I mentionned to a FOFC friend seconds ago, I had to release that "open letter" to Skydog to be true to myself.

I am here to talk FOF, Football and nothing else. I agree that I used some words that were inappropriate and I apologize for that although I stay put to my convictions.

This to say that I'll ignore and won't "reply" to anymore on this issue.

I guess then our temperamental Frenchie won't be joining the revolution to change the name of this community to something more accurate and better than Front Office Football Central? :)

Okay, so I'm hitting this late as you're not going to reply, but my only suggestion would be to ignore all threads on this board not related to FOF if you're intent when visiting this board is to discuss the game.

Yes, there have been a few more threads lately dealing with the game, and I'm sure once the NFL gets going full swing again, many more will pop up (personally, I'm getting the itch to play some TCY again).

As far as the wide variety of other threads and topics around here, that's what makes this board great. I check in here a couple of times a day to see what's cooking on the dynasty forum (where the variety is beautiful) and to see if I can contribute some nonsensical humor to the 'off topic' area because I like to try to be cocky and funny sometimes.

In the end, it's your choice what you read on here, and what you ignore, and it sounds like your experience around here will be 100% more enjoyable if you stick to what you like. I mean, I ignore all the Hat Trick talk because they're all silly people who smell of elderberries. A lot of people, like myself, enjoy coming here to read about any of the zany topics that get posted, and I really doubt you'll get many people to support a "FOF or nothing" board.

If you started one, I'd visit to check out what's being said, but I'd still be coming here to bore people.

Wow, that was long winded, I'm going to bed now.

Well, just my thoughts on this, which are nothing over enlightening...

This board started out because everyone loved to play FOF. But, since the start of the board, we have evolved as a community. I think that it is great that we can talk about all sorts of things as a community, and not just be constrained to talk about FOF.

I really love coming to this board, and the reason for that is I want to see what kind of topics are being discussed today. I come here for the humour, for the debate, for the heart-touching stories, for the other FOFC'ers who are sharing a part of their lives.

If there are those in the community who only want to talk about FOF, fine, that is great...just ignore the other topics. Don't push the rest of the stuff out, because we will be losing something very important if we do so.

Just my thoughts.

I disagree strongly with this. Obviously, we talk about much more than Front Office Football. However, since Jim doesn't have his own message board, this is still THE #1 place on the internet to come to talk FOF strategy and ask questions. If someone is doing an internet search for info on this line of games, this board needs to come up.

You're going to bed? Now? Long night.

The joys of working graveyard.

At least I have my porn to come home to though.

Ben, I was joking.

Since Jim does not have his own message board maybe he can come here to talk FOF strategy and ask questions??? ;)

If he felt like he was wanted, I'm sure he would.

I agree.
And I want it to remain the #1 place to talk FOF.

uhhmmm, is there even a #2? ;)

DK, check out the many GroupThink - Little Rock Roller threads in the Dynasty section over the past month or two. I think you would quickly come to conclusion that FOF2 was still Jim's best product (or at least that FOF4 added almost nothing of value, except for a lousy player acquisition/management AI, despite his time and efforts).

Yup, I miss those days of the playoff injury bug, no booms or busts, not being able to see the draftee list during free agency, and players that fell very neatly into three tiers with ratings pretty much equal across the board.

No booms or busts may be better than predictable booms or busts. Seeing the draft list really doesn't matter you get who you want anyways (AI can't draft well). Three tier ratings are still there (albeit better) but still you can easily know and acquire the stars and avoid the non-stars (which the AI cannot do).

FOF4 is a much improved version of the series. Just about any game can be manipulated to beat AI.

OOTP is a perfect example. I can take a team, go into the Top 100 prospects list, trade for the guys that are A or B at fielding positions and the pitchers that are good or brilliant at walks and build a farm system where I can have a middle of the pack payroll and just trade guys when they are going for FA and just keep putting fresh young talent in. It's possible to take a team in with a low fan interest and no cash and in 10 years make it a dominate team with over $100 mil cash.

The best AI sports game I have played is CM, and even that game can be manipulated.

So, I wonder if it's just something personal, because I've seen you defend OOTP, but bash FOF.

I rather like the evolution to FOF4. Of course I must be a real chimp because other teams routinely have more talent in some key places.

That about sums it up.. Good Post Triple F.

hey, can you move the FOF4 discussion to another thread so we can continue sniping at one another here? :)

CamEdwards has little hands

FOF 4 is also my favorite of the series. I do wish there would have been more evolution in the series, but I will play FOF4 over FOF2 anyday of the week.

TroyF

But I don't think DK will (play 4 over 2), which was the original point.

Cards, I had been critical of OOTP4 where I couldn't come up with enough house rules to make it competitive. FOF falls into the same trap. But at least with OOTP5, I can have fun playing it because there are many things going on (much like how others feel about CM) instead of feeling like I'm just playing a spreadsheet game.

If the AI wasn't drafting (and especially trading the #1 pick for Matt Stover) I'd be playing FOF2 every free hour.

It almost inspires me to create my own football text sim. (Almost as I don't have enough time, quality software and football analysis for doing so at the moment.)

Dark, good to see you back to discuss FOF and the NFL.
Any FOF2 action lately?

I want to echo the sentiments of seveal people. This is much more than a FOF board. Yes it is still the primary place that people come for FOF info, but if that is all that it was then we would have maybe 5-10 people come in here each day. Frankly, there is very little to talk about with FOF that has not already been said. The vast majority of the people who regularly come here are not here for FOF discussion, they are here because we have developed friendships with each other and we are interested in what each other has to say.

In addition, the way that the board is now, it is better for new people who want to find out information about FOF. If there were no or few OT discussions there would be less than 10 people in here per day. But with the board the way that it is, someone new can post their FOF question, and there will be 40+ people around to try to answer it. ANd people generally answer those questions quickly. It actually makes this a much better place for FOF discussion.

I feel the same way. I think the game needs some spice, but only after some reworking of the AI.


Todd

Hi buddy :-)
good to see you too.

Yeah a bit, I posted my all-time Draft analysis (1999-2026) for the Real49ersFootball career (on my website). Basically what I did was look at the best and worst pick of any draft I ran...see who panned out, who busted, who was the true gem etc ;-) was fun to do !

What about you ? what are you up to recently ?

Oh, are you still here?

Darkiller,

I echo the idea that this is a community. Sure are common bond is FOF and text-based sports sims, but we've grown to talk about all sorts of subjects.

As for the thread in question, I personally see nothing wrong with it. Perhaps it's because you are from foreign soil, but the concept of prayer is significant in America. "You're in our/my prayers" is a common expression for someone in need. Many people here in the United States, on both sides of the political spectrum, pray for peace and the safe return of soldiers.

Even pro-war people pray for peace. I'm willing to bet that George W. Bush prays for peace and a safe return of our troops as much as the peaceniks themselves.

And on the idea of community, there will always be dissenters. Nothing wrong with that, as long as the dissent doesn't interfere with the normal flow of business.

As for SkyDog's role as the moderator. I think he's done a decent job. He's fair and usually resolves bad issues rather quickly. Do I always agree with the moves he makes? No. But, than again, I never agree with all the moves the President of the United States makes either.

SkyDog has done a great job and has helped keep the peace on this board. He's kept many of us in check (myself included) when we let our personal emotions get the best of us.

Skippy

Not only that, but who wants his job? I bet it's a pain in the ass moderating many different personalities, while keeping your personal feelings out of it somewhat.

I've been a part of many forums and I think Skydog (Ben) has done just as good a job as anyone at moderating a fairly busy forum.

The lack of FOF posts only shows that most (myself NOT included) people have lost some luster for Jim's offerings presently. His stock has plumeted just like the stock market.


Todd

"elucidate" thats a big word for us football type, don't ya think. :)

If we were forced to talk only about FOF....I wouldn't be here nearly as often, and this wouldn't be as welcome a diversion as it is now (though, maybe that's a good thing :) )

I wouldn't come as much if this were FOF only.

eeeewwww

I said come, not cum. Get your head out of the gutter.

You obviously are not up on slang

You have obviously never doinked a gutter

Darkiller, I think you need to make up your mind. Is Skydog doing a crappy job because:

a) He allows non-FOFC topics?

b) He allows people to flame you in non-FOFC topics (the most notorious of which YOU STARTED).

c) He posts/allows others to post opinions with which you disagree.

There is a bunch of contradiction in your arguments. I think you are just bitter because he disagreed with you on the war. Are you not intelligent enough to realize that Ben's opinion does not necesarily represent that of the average poster, and in no way should ever be construed as the official position of FOFC. This may be presumptuous on my part, but I am fairly certain that he does not want the responsibility of dictating our opinions to us (in fact, I think he is in a very small minority on the subject of teenage girls as objects of desire).

It sounds very much to me like you want him to do a better job of moderating everyone else.

Flame deterrent. I know this post will get me accused of being a SkyDog fanboy, but that could not be further from the truth. I hardly agree with all of his decisions, but I do realize that in the end, they do not mean very much (sorry to break that to you, big guy). If a thread, even a sticky one, looks like it is high in religious content, and low in smut, I know it will not interest me. Guess what I do. Surprise, it is not start a new thread whining about our underpaid moderator, I DON"T OPEN IT. I manage to survive countless unread threads with barely a scratch on me, and my life is not adversely affected by their content at all.

So stay, contribute what you will, be it interesting dynasties, outsider opinions of US culture, or nonsensical, uninformed diatribes, or decide that the injustice of it all is too much for your delicate constitution, and leave, but whatever you do, STOP WHINING!

This collection of run-on sentences brought to you by your overburdened public education system.

I find it funny how people were yelling at DK to not let the door hit him on the ass on the way out when he said we was leaving are now welcoming his return. :)

As for the thread in question.

mrskippy said:
"As for the thread in question, I personally see nothing wrong with it. Perhaps it's because you are from foreign soil, but the concept of prayer is significant in America. "You're in our/my prayers" is a common expression for someone in need. Many people here in the United States, on both sides of the political spectrum, pray for peace and the safe return of soldiers.

Even pro-war people pray for peace. I'm willing to bet that George W. Bush prays for peace and a safe return of our troops as much as the peaceniks themselves."

I don't pray. And I know at least a good minority of this community does not pray. Some of them may do other religious things for the troops. Their version of "prayer" if you will. And some simply don't, because they have no religion. But the word pray is exclusive to jews and christians.

So basically having a thread like this at the top that includes prayer in its message implies that this is a judao-christian community.

It'd be one thing if a regular member of the community said this, but when the moderator does it, that is what it implies.

I would have no problem with a message that says "We hope you have a safe return" and whatnot, but the inclusion of prayer in the message excludes part of this community.

I never really cared about this post, since I know SkyDog is a Jesus freak that throws his religion in whenever he wants to (:D), but for the new members of the board and those who may find this place, a few MIGHT be turned off by such a message.

But according to your hero, George Bush, the war is over. If the hockey thread comes down after the cup, why doesn't the "we support our troops" thread come down after the war?

Like I said, I don't really care about it, but if you want to discuss it, those are my thoughts. I'd like to be included in a message expressing that we hope the members of the military the frequent this board come home safe, but when you say "we are praying for you", it excludes me from such message.

Because the troops are still there. They are still getting shot at. And they are still dying.

"Because the troops are still there. They are still getting shot at. And they are still dying."

Troops are always somewhere. That's the life of the military.

For whatever reason, this really tickled me. QOTM material to be sure.

But they are not always engaged in combat. The troops in Iraq still are even if not on a large enough scale to still call it a war.

Then don't tell their parents on TV that the war is over.

That's an issue for you to take up with leadership. But a silly reply to what I have stated when the fact is soldiers were killed this last weekend.

I don't care what Bush calls it, or what you call it. As long as service men and women are in danger, I will pray for their safe return.

"But they are not always engaged in combat. The troops in Iraq still are even if not on a large enough scale to still call it a war."

I understand your point, but what I was getting at was that I questioned SkyDog's motives. (I forgot to put the smiley after the question, too.)

With the war in Afganistan, we didn't have a sticky like this. But then again, no one opposed the war.

Now we have the hotly debated war in Iraq, and we see this. I just question if SkyDog did it to poke a jab at the anti-war crowd.

edit: took out last part because it might have been taken the wrong way...

dola,

"As long as service men and women are in danger, I will pray for their safe return."

And I won't. (which was the big, major point of my post)

Just because you won't doesn't mean the majority of the board won't, you don't want us speaking for you, but you want to speak for all of us.

"Just because you won't doesn't mean the majority of the board won't, you don't want us speaking for you, but you want to speak for all of us."

That's total nonsense. Please tell me where I said "Everyone must conform to my beleifs." I never said such a thing. All I'm saying is that in a message that is "from the community" shouldn't exclude parts of the community.

I understand that argument. My only beef was why it still remains in place.

Not at all. As I said before, not one "anti-war crowd" member here ever complained about the thread. Literally this thread is the very first complaint EVER about it (apart from one bizarre incident a month or so ago that I'd forgotten about). Also as I mentioned earlier, the thread wasn't even my idea in the first place, but I thought it was a good idea. The spirit of the thread was simply to wish any FOFC'ers who might be put in harm's way a safe return. There's nothing more to it than that, because it never occurred to me that anyone would NOT want ardent, etc. to return home safely.

It's not nonsense, you want the post removed also from my understanding, so since you don't like what it says it should be removed... How is that any different then skydog posting it because he likes what it says?

Plus it doesn't say from the community, it says the FOFC Crew, so that could just as well mean Skydog and RyanS, but i'm sure anyone who opposes to that sticky will nitpick that too.

Exactly... I'm not even sure everyone here complaining about the post is anti-war... Apparently they think Anti-war means they hope everyone dies.

The Anti-war crowd should actually applaud the sticky, it's not encouraging war, its just wishing for a safe return of everyone we have over there which is what part of the anti-war crowd were protesting in the first place... sending troops to war and in harms way.

Maybe I should go back on vacation.

FYI, any argument NOW about the content of that thread rings EXTREMELY hollow to me. The thread has been up for OVER TWO MONTHS!!! Frankly, if someone had complained two months ago about the "you are in our prayers" sentence, I would have changed it to something else like "you are in our thoughts." If you had sincere concerns about the thread, you could/should have said something then. I've said it twice in this thread, and I'll say it again: Other than Darkiller NO ONE has complained about the thread, neither its overall sentiment nor its specific content. That one complaint I got was after the thread had already been up for around a month or so, and it was sent via a PM from a phony screen name. (I've said before that I find hiding behind a NEW fake name in an internet community to be the epitome of cowardliness, and such behavior will cause one's complaints to be completely dismissed.) Other than that, not one single complaint. Zip. Zero. Nada. Of all the things people complain about me, I hear NOTHING from any of you until now??? Puh-leez.

"It's not nonsense, you want the post removed also from my understanding, so since you don't like what it says it should be removed... How is that any different then skydog posting it because he likes what it says?"

I never said I wanted it removed. Personally, I like to have a message on the board that says we want the troops who frequent this board to return home safe. I'm just saying that one that did not contain religious meaning would be more appriciated from my standpoint and probably many others (since it wouldn't exclude me)

So to be clear, I do not want it to be removed. I even said in my original post that I didn't care about it. Since the topic was brought up, I just threw my thoughts on it out there.

Okay, so I'm hitting this late as you're not going to reply, but my only suggestion would be to ignore all threads on this board not related to FOF if you're intent when visiting this board is to discuss the game.

AGREED!! Don't read or reply anything that does not have something to do with the game and leave the rest of us alone. If you have issues that prevent you from coming to this board then start your own adn run it as you see fit.

Really? Than what is than tinny sound coming from the mineret in Baghdad all about?

And other religions do pray their their gods.


Maybe it does. Does it matter? I mean, a majority of the people don't seem offended by the thread.


So when the President of the United States says to pray, does that mean you've been excluded. And George W. isn't the first president to do this. In fact, our previous President was a devout Christian as much as Bush.

And I've heard lots of people including "unbiased" TV journalists (and not just on Fox) talk about praying for the troops. "We're praying for you." or "You're in our prayers."


Why would the basic concept of prayer turn anyone off. Prayer is not exclusive to Jews and Christians.

Many, if not most, religions have some form of prayers.


The major part of the war is over. But troops remain. Fighting still goes on. You just don't hear much about it on TV.

Even the war in Afghanistant isn't over.

Heck, the first Gulf War never even ended. Did you realize that if you went to the Gulf aboard ship between 1990 and now, you are legally a Veteran -- even if you didn't see a minute of combat? It's true!!!

And the larger war on terrorism will continue for sometime to come.

Skippy was the kid who always went his parents and said that he should be able to stay up late and watch TV because the kid down the block always was up past midnight and ate ice cream three meals a day.

Just because other people did it doesn't mean it is right. Believe it or not, some of us here don't pray and some of us even believing that praying is bad.

mrskippy,

I was typing fast. I forgot to include muslims. Sue me.

My point was that not all religions pray. They all worshop something. They all have religious ceremonies. They all have religious...everything else. My point was what it implies. That's all.

"So when the President of the United States says to pray, does that mean you've been excluded. "

Yes.

"The major part of the war is over. But troops remain. Fighting still goes on. You just don't hear much about it on TV.

Even the war in Afghanistant isn't over."

According to Bush, the war in Afghanistan is over...didn't we already go over this part of my post? Damn man, read the whole thread before replying.

"Why would the basic concept of prayer turn anyone off. Prayer is not exclusive to Jews and Christians. "

A lot of people, even some jews and christians, get a little turned off by religious expressions by those in power.

Have I made myself clear yet?

"I'd like to hear an example of how praying can be considered bad."

If a train is coming at you and instead of moving you pray for God to not let the train hit you.

:D

You pray and run at the same time.

Yeah that would be bad for the person praying, or just plain dumb. But not necessairly offensive to others. Unless they feel that by praying you exposed them to a gory incident which will require years of intense counseling to get over.

When the post first went up I thought about commenting but I didn't for two reasons....

1) It was locked
2) Life is too short

In an ideal world I think the thread would have simply wished our soldiers luck and a safe return without any religious context, but what are you going to do... we don't live in an ideal world. Some people want to make religion a part of everything and I know they mean no harm to us non-religious folk, so I won't bring up the issue myself very often. If someone else does it bring it up I'm more apt to speak up though. I imagine others are like this, which might explain why no said anything about it at all until now.

"You pray and run at the same time."

I think running would show a severe lack of faith. :D

dola,

Daimyo pretty much summed up why I never said anything either.

even folks that aren't religous evidently.

I don't think Bush said the war is over in the sense that everybody is coming home and there is no fighting.

What Bush has said is the "major hostilities are over." That is correct.

As for religions that pray. Let me add Buddhists and Hindus to the mix. Just start doing a Google search. The following is an interesting piece on prayer from the Buddhist perspective:

http://www.sotozen-net.or.jp/kokusai/friends/zen11_1_04.html

And I did find this piece just a little interesting on the concept of God:

http://blogs.salon.com/0001847/stories/2003/01/06/whatIsGod.html

But I'm going to cut the interesting part out:


And who said Atheists don't pray? :D

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2003/Apr/12/il/il12afaith.html

And this is just one of many version's of The Lord's Prayer. I know it is done in humor, but I think it gives some insight:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/GAMOW/GAMOW24.htm

There's a difference between stupidity and faith.

Standing on the track and praying the train doesn't hit you would be suicide. If you did survive you'd be locked up in a padded room for awhile.

Trying to get away and praying that you make it while you're running makes sense.

Skippy

There may be cultural forces at work here as well. Although I am Christ-oriented (but heaven knows I ain't "religious"--ugh!), in that thread, the generic phrase "you're in our prayers" to me means about the equivalent of "we're thinkin' 'bout ya." Perhaps the problem here is you've got an Ol' Boy from South Georgia posting the thread. I don't recall thinking any literal "religious" implication. It probably isn't healthy, but in my cultural background, "you're in our prayers" just isn't a literal phrase at all. That's why I said (and I meant) that if someone had complained about it two months ago, I'm pretty sure I would have changed the wording without hesitation.

"You're in our prayers" is generic. Very generic. I hear TV anchors (not just Fox) use it all the time during times of crisis and it was used often during the war.

Lest you forget, Congress has a chaplain in each house and begins each session with prayer.

Skydog --

Y'know, that's actually something I've thought about numerous times in the past few years & I've actually made a conscious effort to either a) actually offer at least a short prayer if I say that or b) don't say it if I don't intend to actually offer the prayer.

Which probably has little to do with the original topic but ... sue me for it, I just found it interesting that you made reference to something I don't hear talked about much

Also, re: running/praying about oncoming train -- I'm reminded here of the joke about the flood, the guy on the roof, and the raft, boat & helicopter that came by to rescue him :)

"Hell, we sent two boats and a helicopter, what'd ya want???" :D

I miss Lewis Grizzard. :(

I find this funny that a bunch of adults(mostly) on a message board are fighting because of a thread about prayer for troops.

Also, I love the fact that because I am against something, it should be taken down because it doesn't stand for all the people. I don't like hockey. I don't bitch that there is a 9 or 10 page hockey thread at the top.

You're not the only one. His columns were always witty and funny, probably even better than Dave Berry.

I did find Grizzard's official Web site with archived columns.

You just don't get it, do you? Read my above post.

There are many ways prayer could be bad (I don't believe all of them):

Prayer can make people look outside themselves for guidance and responsibility.

Prayer engages in a leap of faith that many logic-oriented people (not me) on this board would find dangerous. This is especially so when one believes prayer is a two-way communication.

Prayer can dehumanize the individual. While most Christian call this "humility" and recognizing your place in the world, others would argue that in extreme form it amounts to debasing a person's worth.

Prayer can be a substitute for action.

Prayer for "small" things can trivialize the important things in life. See Notre Dame football.

Prayer by people in power can create cultural norms that are antithetical to those who don't believe. They can act to prefer religion over non-religion and imply that those that don't follow are enemies. See Bush's repeated "with us or against us" references in combination with calls for prayer.

There are many reasons prayer CAN be bad. It is always bad or that bad most of the time. Yet, to pretend it is neutral or harmless is short-sighted.

BTW, I had no problem (and still have no problem) with the stickied thread. I just thought people were missing a point about prayer in this thread.

sigh. Sometimes I miss HornsManiac. At least when he was around the stupid shit we argued about was amusing.

There's nothing wrong with that.

Have you ever asked anyone for advice? For guidance? EVER???

If you haven't you're a liar.

Just because some people turn to God, Allah, the Virgin Mary, Buddah, the Saints, Moses, Vishnu, etc. instead of a spouse, a sibling, a child, a co-worker, a friend, etc. doesn't make it any different.

And for some people there's greater comfort in turning to a higher power.


Yeah, prayer does require faith. I won't deny that.

But I don't see how prayer is dangerous.


Prayer doesn't make you less of a human.

There is nothing wrong with humility or being humble. Do you know what the opposite of being humble is. It's called being prideful.

While there is nothing wrong with having pride in yourself, it is wrong when that pride dehumanizes or hurts others.


That's not necessarily a bad thing.

If you substitute prayer for action in an obvious situation, yeah, that's probably bad. But how often does that really happen?

Really now, you make prayer sound as if it is evil.