Forks Over Knives (Or, the Western diet vs. a plant-based diet)
 

Based on QuikSand's post below, I put Forks Over Knives in my Netflix cue a while back, and it has been sitting on our shelf for some time. Finally watched it last night. It was an eye-opening experience for me. As a guy whose preferred diet includes meat at lunch and dinner, it really made me sit up and take notice. I'm 5'10, 215 lbs. Clearly, my normal diet is not working for me. So, I'm going to give the plant-based diet a real shot. Maybe even do a dynasty about. :)

By coincidence, I had already started a diet (actually, my wife and I agreed to a weight-loss competition) last Friday when I stopped drinking soda and chose healthy snacks over the usual crap I eat. In the afternoon at work, I decided to go for 15-minute walks instead of grabbing a soda and candy bar on my break to wake me up. I noticed I get the same uptick in energy from the walk as I did from the caffeine/sugar fix. In the first week, I lost 3.6 pounds. A good start. I'd like to get down to 175 or 180.

Good stuff. I have probably gone back to QS' post in that thread four or five times. I have often thought through the ramifications of cutting dairy, meat and wheat from my diet. If I lived alone, I think it would be a cinch - but definitely much tougher with five other people in my house.

Of course, that's just a crazy excuse. I really should try it. Will be interested to read if you decide to go into dynasty mode.

I'll try to post here without the blinders of being a dairy producer, but that'd be close to impossible. The simplest way to put it is that each person needs to assess their own risk factors and adjust their diets accordingly.

I'm a firm believer that genetics plays a large role. While we may share 99.9999% DNA with all other humans that 0.0001% is actually quite an enormous amount of genetic material. Looking at the affect of diet on Chinese people doesn't necessarily mean much to somebody of Northern European stock. Speaking in evolutionary terms, the body's nutritional traits would be some of the most adaptable traits. A group of humans that moves into a certain geographic area adapts to the sources of nutrition available.

My descendants from the frigid climates of Scandinavia didn't have lots of vegetation available that are digestible to the human body compared to people from a more tropical climate. They adapted by eating animals and animal products from animals that could digest the vegetation available.

My grandfathers made 89 and 87 years old and my grandmothers are in their late 80s and going strong and all have been on a meat and potatoes diet their whole lives. I think it's pretty safe to say I'll do fine on a meat and potatoes diet (everything in moderation of course). If I had a family history of heart problems or whatever, I would definitely see the merit in reducing animal products from my diet.

And with the evolutionary angle, introducing an animal-heavy diet has been a disaster to nationalities of people not traditionally accustomed to animal-heavy diets. From a selfish point of view, I'm going to hope the Chinese don't figure this out as China is one of the great emerging export markets for my dairy products (SE Asia too) :)

I was dating a girl for a while who had a pretty crazy lifestyle, and to try to win some brownie points, I suggested we go watch this movie in the theater. It was pretty fascinating stuff. It's been a while since I watched it, and I remember being a little disappointed that they didn't explore some other options with their research (I felt it was a somewhat one-sided account), but overall I came away with a much healthier respect for the diet part of her "crazy lifestyle." The thing that struck me the most was the study of Norway during the Nazi occupation. It was over a very small period of time in the scheme of things, but the results were staggering.

I wish that it had done more to change my dietary habits (the fact that the girl and I broke up didn't help), but for now just knowing about it and applying it occasionally is a step in the right direction.

Uh wow....

Well for us, we came across this movie after trying to find solutions for my son. On top of his Autism, we found out he needed to be on a gluten-free/casein-free diet. Gluten would cause his stomach to bloat and I won't describe what casein does. Since we knew he had limitations on what he could eat, we wanted to convert over as a family. So we kept dairy, gluten as well as sugar (as much as we can) out of our diet. Was quite amazed at how many products were on the shelves that at least contained 2 of those.

But this last summer we came across Forks Over Knives and that basically changed our whole way of thinking. In the last 5 months, it was amazing to see the changes in the way we ate. We basically had to force them to eat small portions of vegetables. Now we eat some amount of leafy greens (mostly spinach and kale) everyday with other assorted vegetables and/or fruits. And for the most part I would say about 70% of our meals are raw while the other 30 is vegetarian. Stevia and Honey replaced sugar (which is not even used that much). Spirulina and tumeric have been normal things to add to some meals.

That time span also yielded some positive results to our health. At first, it was a bit strange, because it was as if my body was purging and I could not understand how 3 corn tortillas stuff with vegetables was causing this. Well in time, that went away. Apparently I was clearing stuff from my body and I dropped 20 lbs, getting down to my high school weight (165 lbs). I also noticed that this winter my bronchitis didn't flare up like it usually does when the season changes to winter. So that was a nice little surprise.

However, this changes the way you shop as well. To keep things on a similar budget, you have to know what fruits/veggies are in season. You are going to have to go to the store more often since you want to buy in smaller quantities to make sure that you food is close to fresh as possible. Luckily our stores carry a lot of organic produce and the prices are reasonable. But we do go to the local farmer markets since we can actually know where our food is coming from. I learned much about this from this book Raw Food on a Budget. This is not just for raw foodist since she gives a slew of tips on saving money eating organic foods. I believe she also sells her book through Amazon as well.

I am convinced that there is something to it since none of us has felt energy depleted not having meat in our diet. Not to say I have vowed never to eat meat again. We still ate turkey for Thanksgiving and while it had a different feeling in my stomach, there was no ill effect. I am just treating meat as I treat sweet treats. They are meant to be enjoyed once in a great while.

So yeah, Fork Over Knives was a kickstarter for us, but we did this out of necessity for my son and I don't foresee us going back.

Yeah, my plan is not to drop meat entirely (as it is my favorite kind of food), but to make it an occasional treat, rather than a major staple of my diet. Thanks for your story. It's encouraging to hear what a positive effect changing your diet had for you.

I'm hoping I got the juicer I mentioned as a potential gift to my family. Meat has already decreased significantly as a component of my diet (and when I do have it it's 95% chicken) as part of my whole lifestyle-change.

Just feels...healthier. Although seafood is delicious too I must admit.

I've been a longtime lurker on here, since I found this board to get some tips on FOF years ago... I noticed there were far more viewers on the Off Topic page so I checked it out, and have been using this board as a major source of news from everything from the whole conference realignment fiasco to politics to music and so on and so forth... This place was kinda like a collection of blogs for stuff that interested me, before blogs were really all that common. Never felt compelled to sign up and post anything til now, but this subject is something near and dear to my heart...

I've been meat-free for about two years now, most of that being a completely plant based diet (vegan). Before this I could count on being sick to varying degrees about 6 months out of the year, as I work a job where catching germs is pretty easy. I would have mild fits of depression and lethargy. I was about 230, 35% body fat. Just physically and mentally out of shape. Within 2 months of giving up meat I had dropped down to 190, and within 5 was down to 170 and about 8-9% BF. Recently, in order to prove to myself that I could gain muscle on a plant based diet, I've gotten up to about 210 at about 8%. I haven't been sick once since, nor have I had any feelings of depression and my energy levels are higher than they were when I was in my early 20's (I'm 33 now)... At a time in my life that my strength should be decreasing I'm currently throwing up 325 on the bench which is about 25 pounds more than I could get up when I was choking down chicken breast and egg whites at the age of 21... Moving to a plant based diet has essentially improved every facet of my life. I know its not for everyone, but I felt the need to pop in with my own testimonial, so to speak, for anyone that's thinking about dabbling in the lifestyle. Its been the best decision I've made for myself in quite a long time, and I don't say that lightly...

That said, I still haven't seen "Forks over Knives." Haha... I spent a lot of time reading up on related literature when I was first getting into a plant based diet and I've just put seeing the movie on the backburner... Since I'm already a convert, I think I'm just subconsciously saving it in case I ever start to wonder to myself, "Why am I doing this?" Not that I see that ever happening at this point...

Here is my repost from the Weight Loss Dynasty:


Basically, If I hadn't seen it first hand, I'd never have believed it. This is the real deal. It's a hard truth to face, especially for me, but it is the best solution for our futures, and overall health for people all over.

Awww, your stories put a smile on my face, so awesome! I mentioned it in a thread somewhere but yes, this movie completely changed our lives. When my son comes home and says he chose fruits and gluten free food at a school holiday party, we know we made the right choice because he feels the difference.

One thing that I found with a low carb diet - at least when I started and was really strict - is that just having a set of foods you absolutely couldn't touch cut down on intake. Mac & Cheese left over from the kids? Can't touch it. Stray candy or desert? Can't touch it. It leads to a lot less snacking just because your options are limited. You have to seek something out rather than just munching on whatever is around, which is usually a lot.

Even outside of the merits of a diet like this, I'd assume the same would apply.

fwiw, i'm living proof that it's possible to be a fat vegetarian.

Ok, this thread has piqued my interest.

Reason being, I was diagnosed several years ago with polymyositis and as most of you know I love food. Without the travel and the constant running around I was doing, my weight gain and love for food is going to catch up with me. But I have also been experiencing my muscle issues more than usual.

My girlfriend is lactose intolerant so no true dairy is had with her. We have soy cheese and soy milk.

This would be a major change for me as I love my cheese and milk, but I think it is a change I need to make. I don't eat a ton of red meat, it's mostly chicken and fish so I need to treat it like others are saying, it's a treat.

I will be watching this within this week and as usual, the turn of the year, I will be making a shift...

Also watch "Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead."

I haven't seen the specific film you are talking about, but I know Vegetables and the nutrients they provide are very healthy, but there is no need to cut out meat from your diet (when I say meat, I include the lean meats like chicken, turkey and fish). In fact, I think that it is rather unhealthy unless substituted with other proteins like eggs, milk, etc... as thin doesn't mean healthy and protein is essential for good health. And getting your protein from soy is bad for you, if you are male. It increases your levels of estrogen hormones and decreases your levels of testosterone.

For me it would be awfully difficult to obtain my daily protein intake (300 grams) without meat. A lot comes from my use of whey and casein, but I love me my meat (though, when I say meat, it's actually almost all turkey, chicken, and tuna). I only eat beef or pork maybe once a week, though I love that as well.

Right now I am 6'3 and 275. I've been bulking and while I need to cut about 15-20 pounds of fat, I am predominantly muscle. I am also in the best physical shape of my life, extremely strong and still as fast as I was when I was thinner. My cardiovascular shape is a little off as I am still getting back to where I was before I hurt my ankle, but it's still very good for someone my size and with a sedentary lifestyle (not including working out and playing sports, but general work, friends and family life).

See, this is a far better change than reducing your meat intake. Meat is good for you, and eliminating soda and things like chips and candy will give you the calorie reduction in order to lose weight. And then paired with regular exercise will leave you healthy and at a good weight.

I am not that familiar with your diagnosis, and just going off what I know, so I would definitely ask your doctor. But I can't imagine lower levels of testosterone and higher levels of estrogen would be good for a muscle related disability.

All these fad diets are so interesting, it still comes down to calorie intake vs. calorie's burned. Veggie diets work for weight loss because it significantly reduces your calorie in take. But again, you would be far better off long term by eating more and exercising more. And again, for purposes of people on here, who are almost all men, there are differences between men and women's bodies. An all veggie diet is healthier for women because they can supplement their loss of protein with soy. That is not healthy for men.

With all due respect - you're not in the weight loss dynasty thread and you're not a weight-loss expert. "Eat more and exercise more" isn't going to help someone that wants or needs to lose a significant amount of weight lose that weight.

And the changes PilotMan is making aren't part of a "fad diet" - they're part of a lifestyle change and a change in his relationship with food.

"Meat here or there" isn't an unhealthy lifestyle necessarily. It may work better for some people than for others.

I am not claiming to be an expert, just sharing some thoughts. Oh and I struggled with my weight throughout my childhood and early adult life. And even now, I have to always be conscious of it. I have always had a slow metabolism and obesity runs on my moms side of the family. Her dad died of heart problems in his 50's as he weighed over 450 pounds. I personally weighed 300 pounds and was obese when I was 14. And after losing weight doing extreme calorie reduction that was unsustainable, weighed back at 325 pounds and was obese when I was 20.

But oh forgive me, I have not posted in the dynasty thread :rolleyes:

Again, I have a chronic slow metabolism, but have built it up to a normal level with some of the things I have mentioned. Regular weight lifting, 6-7 meals throughout the day, high protein in take, plenty of vitamins, drinking plenty of water.

It's more more than simply calorie intake and burning calories. The two main people in "Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead" are two overweight men and they do a vegetarian diet. "Fork Over Knives" pretty much takes care of the "we need meat for the protein" debate.

Sorry if my posts have come off as acting as if I know everything. That is not my intention. Issues regarding diet and weight are a topic I care very much about due to my life experience.

And that part you quoted, is the thing that has helped me the most, by far. It may not work for everyone, but I know personally that the linek of thinking that one needs to severely restrict one's own diet can be very tough to sustain and often results in at the very least, an unhealthy approach to diet and exercise and sometimes eating disorders.

I should probably watch it then and see what they have to say. Do they advocate not eating meat? Or do they simply say you don't need to eat meat? Cause that is a big difference. While protein is important, you can get protein from things like eggs, fish, milk etc...

This diet probably does work for some, but for those like me, if I tried to go on vegetarian diet at some point (and I did something similar), it can work for weight loss, but is not something that can be sustained and results in ending up at or beyond your original weight (again, for those similar to me).

"Fork over Knives" is straight up endorsing a vegan diet without really hammering the word vegan. It's hardly spoken in the movie all things considered. The key phrase is a plant based diet. They do cover dairy as well. One of the two main guys grew up on a farm and was taught milk being the perfect food. The movie also shows a MMA fighter who is a vegetarian/vegan.

So they are vegan and advocate not consuming animal products like milk? Or they are vegetarian and say milk is ok? You seem to be using vegan and vegetarian interchangeably when they are very different.

And not to completely discount the mma fighter cause he may be clean, but I don't really trust the results of those in profession where probably at least half and likely more take steroids.

I suppose "plant-based diet" could be taken as a code-phrase for vegan, but if you really just pay attention to the studies that are referenced in the documentary, none of them are "OMG Vegan is good and everything else sucks".

One of the main studies that's referenced a few times is one showing the difference between two groups. One group had 20% of their consumption from animal products while the other was at 5%. The 20% showed long term health issues while the 5% showed few if any at all.

It goes back to what was quoted from QS in the first post.

"-Amidst all this, I think the healthful effects of a much-reduced consumption of animal proteins, especially dairy, is very strongly supported. What I don't see enough clear evidence for is the health-driven necessity of going to absolute zero. The most powerful changes seem to take place when going from "high animal" to "low animal" content in the diet. This isn't as thrilling to the animal rights side of the debate, who really really want to have strong science behind their pre-existing viewpoint... but thus far there doesn't seem to be a powerful case (to me) that an absolute vegan diet is separable from one where, say, 5% of your calories come from animal proteins (still far lower than our standard diet here, of course)."

So while the documentary might advocate a vegan diet (implicitly or covertly), the research it cites doesn't quite go that far, nor do many (or any...it's been awhile since I watched it) of the experts that appear in the film.

And that seems a much more reasonable approach. Again for me though, while it may better for my long term health if I had a more plant based diet, I know having eating habits that I can stick to and keeps me in good physical shape and at a better weight will be far better for my health and happiness than going with diets that I wouldn't stick to and would constantly struggle with.

Its ironic that you claim that soy will increase your levels of estrogen, while you yourself admit you get a lot of your protein from dairy based products... Soy does contain phytoestrogens, but these do not effect the actual estrogen levels in your body and certainly do not decrease testosterone. Dairy cows on the other hand are pumped full of estrogen, so that they can start producing milk earlier, which in turn ends up in dairy products. This is why over the last couple of generations girls are starting to mature earlier and earlier than they ever have, among other problems... so if you're actually, concerned about your testosterone/estrogen balance, you are much better off getting rid of dairy than soy.

Also, on the whole protein consumption argument. Even for an extremely active athlete 300 grams seems a bit excessive. Your body can only process about 30-40 grams every 3-4 hours anyway, and everything beyond that is stored as body fat or burned away as energy. You could probably easily get by with half of what you are taking in, and experience no loss of muscle (and you will lose body fat, provided you don't replace the protein with other foods). I'm currently sitting at about 215 lbs. right now at about 7-8% bodyfat and am lifting more than a lot of the dudes that are much bigger than I am at the gym, and I get by just fine on about 100-130 grams a day... Everyone is different, of course, but most people have had more protein equals more muscle driven into their heads repeatedly, and at a certain point this just isn't true. I could get into the effects of extreme levels of protein on your liver, kidenys, bones, etc, but I'll digress for now...

Because... the whole point of the movie, from what I've heard, isn't about weight loss or body composition, but on total health... People who consume little to no meat live longer, don't get heart disease, have lower cancer rates, and are just generally more healthy... A very small part of this probably has something to do with vegetarians and vegans having far, far less cases of obesity than meat eaters, but it is mostly because the human body isn't built to process the large amounts of meat that people try to cram into our bodies. For example, true carnivores have mechanisms in their bodies to deal with the high amounts of cholesterol in a meat based diet. Humans, however, weren't designed to eat a mostly plant based diet, so when we consume high amounts of cholesterol, it builds up in our arteries, and the complications go on from there...

What you want to put in your body, is your own choice, but to say that not eating meat is unhealthy is simply ignoring study after study that says the exact opposite is true.

On the first part, I have read a lot of studies that say too much soy does increase estrogen levels. In fact I read a long one recently that advocated for soy, but still admitted that it does raise estrogen levels slightly. And I have read a lot about isolated whey and casein and have never read any research stating they raise estrogen levels (but if you have some, I would be interested in reading).

For the second paragraph, you are probably right that I don't need 300 grams a day (I actually average 240-300, but I had read a lot that stating it is good to take in 1 gram per pound of body weight, so I try for that and have had excellent results. Additionally, doing that keeps me content with my diet and helps me feel full throughout the day. If some of it is converted to energy then that is fine. And it's certainly not stored as fat. Before my bulking phase I had lost 35 pounds while consuming that amount of protein. But like you said, everyone is different. I didn't start with that amount, but have found that I have the best results with that. Regarding the negative impact of protein on your kidneys, liver etc... all the research I have read states that there is absolutely no negative health impacts on either of these as long as you drink enough water (with the 250-300 gram range I mentioned). I do know there are some people who take in 400+ grams a day and even I would admit that is way overboard.

I think a large issue is lumping in meat together. All these studies talk about animal products, but don't seem to be differentiating between the dozens of individual products. Yes, if you eat a lot of beef, pork, dark meet chicken, that is definitely bad for you. I exclusively eat white meat chicken, tuna and white meat turkey on a daily basis which has very little cholesterol. My cholesterol levels are good, at this point at least.

I have read a lot that says eating lean chicken, turkey and fish is good for you. None ofthe studies I have seen pointed out in this thread seem to specifically study the effects of specific animal products independently. If in the one study just talked about that extra 15% of animal products included whole milk, eggs with yolk, beef, etc... (as I would bet they did) then of course results would indicate that lowering animal products from 20% to 5% would be good

It sounds like you are in fantastic shape and and have a much better overall life after going with no meat, so well done. For me, having been significantly overweight much of my life, I am very happy with the results that I have had (even if I never reach 8% body fat). And again, this is something I've been dealing with since I was 6, so it's not like I don't have a body of work to measure the kind of results I have had. I think each person needs to do what works for them and I definitely don't think one thing works the same for everyone.

And by the way, I think it is fascinating that there is research that supports what both of us are saying. I know I have read A LOT about protein consumption. I'm sure you have as well. It just shows how easily researchers can manipulate results by conducting studies in a certain way.

Many of these studies and fad diets have the same thing in common. If you eat less calories you will live longer. Atkins diet helped a lot of people because if you severely limit carbohydrates, it's pretty tough to overeat. Just as if you avoid all animal products and fill up on a ton of veggies, you'll probably have a tough time eating too many calories.

And all these fads try and manipulate data to make it seem like their particular fad is causing this. But it still boils down to the fact that these fad diets are about tricking you into lowering your calorie consumption. That in and of itself is the most important thing someone can do. Not some shitty pseudoscience claiming all these little things cause all our ailments. If people enjoy the diet and can follow through on it, then I'm all for it.

I think the film does offer good advice. We should be eating less animal products and more veggies. Our diets have gotten a bit out of whack. But it also mixes in a lot of pseudoscience and misrepresents the China Study to scare people into it.

It makes broad sweeping judgements on things that have many variables. Saying "we started eating more meat and thus we started seeing more diseases" is as open ended as saying "we started using home computers and thus we started seeing more diseases". There are a lot of factors in play for why the country has become unhealthy.

LOL this is 100% not true, not even close to true.

Soy does contain phytoestrogens, or isoflavens, which effect the way estrogen acts inside your body, but don't actually increase the levels of estrogen in your body. All the studies that I've read about soy and estrogen pretty much focus on this effect on women, and dismiss the effects on men. In particular, breast cancer has been linked to high levels of soy consumption, but I've seen studies say there is no connection. Even so, a vegan diet, as a meat eating diet, should strive to get its protein from as many different sources as possible, so I get a good chuck of mine from nuts, grains, veggies, legumes, etc, and of course some soy products... I read casein and whey and just assumed dairy products, so I'm not quite sure of the effects of isolated casein and whey or if hormones in dairy would get transferred in the process of isolating the protein from the milk, so I'll hafta plead ignorance on this one. I do assume that any animal products that aren't organically raised and drug free are going to have hormones in them that will increase your estrogen levels. I would assume protein powders would be the same, but I really don't know for sure...

That's awesome that you're seeing such good results with that high of a protein intake. My point is that its not entirely necessary to get all that protein to still build muscle and/or lose weight. I used to be firmly in the one gram per pound camp when I first got into fitness, and I got good results as well. But more recently I've found that I have more energy and better results without a diet that's skewed so heavily toward protein consumption. I figured out that if I can replace some of that protein with a raw veggie or fruit or something, I'm going to reap the benefits of that food, while still providing my body with enough protein to build and repair my muscles. At the end of the day, however, a calorie is a calorie, and if you're doing something to burn that calorie off, it doesn't matter where it came from...

Its definitely true that a lot of these studies lump meat as one category, and there's most certainly differing levels in the healthiness of certain meats. Especially, if you're choosing organically raised animals. Factory farms = hormones which messes up the natural balance of the chemicals in your body. I don't necessarily believe that meat is in and of itself is bad for you, but I do believe that the way we as a society produce and consume meat (and other animal products) is.

and I agree with everything in that last paragraph. Every single person reacts to different stimuli differently, and while the basic concepts of diet, fitness, and wellness its up to each person to figure out what works best for them and do it...

I don't find it fascinating at all, I find it par for the course. Wait 2 years, there will be an entire new set of guidelines on what we should or should not be eating more or less og.

Again this isn't about losing weight. Basically the idea that heart disease, cancer and a host of other maladies are avoidable without the consumption of animal proteins.

I say this as I watch my wife go through days with greatly reduced pain, days from having to walk with a cane when her mid 30's body is perfectly healthy, to days where she can walk 5 miles at a time with manageable pain. Until you watch the total transformation of a loved one for the better with no more than a dietary change you won't understand.

It all sounds good on paper. I have given little thought and care to what is actually in our food. I figured that it was really overblown, overhyped. I grew up a meat and potatoes person. But the science doesn't lie. The research is solid. Why does America have all these health problems? Why are our incidence rates for these diseases so high and rising? It may not answer all the questions but the stats do show some very strong relationships that cannot be denied.

Like Quick said at the outset:

I had a heart attack scare (I'm 40) a couple of weeks ago and have slowly reduced what meat I'm eating and I have to say that I am feeling better. Been on blood pressure medicine for the last two years and eating better has done far more to control it than the medicine ever has (201/110 when I went to the hospital, 144/78 when I went to the doctor last Thursday).

I'm also down to 290 from 302 two weeks ago. :D

EDIT: Still having a problem cutting down the sodium in my diet though. It seems like anything that is processed has tons of it.

I tried the paleo diet for a while. Too hard to stick to when your wife isn't also on it, but it was great. Felt my energy levels stabilize and definitely lost weight and gained definition (while continuing to work out). I noticed a huge difference in cutting out dairy and grains. Although I was probably also simply consuming fewer calories a day as well.

I don't believe it's simply # of calories in - # of calories out. Timing and type of food definitely changes the impact the quantity of calories has. For example, I will guarantee that you would gain more weight eating five big macs right before bed as opposed to when you first wake up in the morning.

But your arteries are going to harden either way. :eek:

I was just thinking about the paleo diet in the context of this thread. I don't think it's simply net calories either, but I don't think it's as simple as meat is evil either. I'm sure excluding meat gets people thinking more about what they're putting in their body - they're probably not replacing meat with soda, for example. I think for most regular people, that's the most important thing, thinking about it, making actual decisions, avoiding the universally condemned kind of stuff. Paleos can get in heated arguments with vegans, and with vegetarians, and with the meat and potatoes in moderation people, and with everyone else, but if you're making conscious decisions based on your health and what works for you, you're already doing really well.

Edit: It's kind of like religion in a way. All the strict rules, etc, aren't necessarily critical on their own, it's how they change your perspective and actions. If I could do a study about people who can only eat foods starting with the letter D, or whatever, I'd predict some modest health and eating habit improvements as people are forced to think carefully about the food choices, what they're not getting nutrition wise, what they need to get, etc. It's not a perfect example, obviously some foods are considered universally healthier than others, I just think where get into debates about various healthy ways to eat, there's probably no perfect answer. And I'm certainly not ready to meat in the "universally bad" category.

Interesting thread.

Here's an interesting read...rather long, but interesting, nonetheless.

http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/for...-and-critique/

That's cool - I'd love to hear more about how you've managed to do that actually. My metabolism is slow...I'd love to boost it sensibly.

Just saw this thread for the first time. Have a bit to add, and lots and lots of links for anyone interested, will share in time.

I have been 100% plant based for about six months, and have been working on increasing the overall good health of my diet from "pretty good" to "very good" even further lately. I'm still making progress.

I'm the textbook case of the guy who needs to do this, or at least something like this. I'm in my early 40s, just lost my dad to heart disease, have had struggles with weight, and have small kids I'd really like to be around to see. And I have a very committed wife who wants to eat this way, and likes to cook together. I'm in about as good a position possible to do this.

So far, so good. I'm not the perfect spokesperson, but I *know* what I'm doing is better, and it might actually be very powerfully better for me and anyone else.

Among many observations, I will offer this -- I wouldn't really claim that weight loss is the primary motivation for switching to a plant-based whole-foods diet. It's about saving your life. In most cases, the dietary change will result in weight loss, but also a dramatic drop in heart disease contributors, blood pressure, and (it appears) both cancer and a variety of other diseases, many of which seem nearly untreatable otherwise. Losing weight may be an immediate goal, and it surely helps to sell more books, but the "movement" here is that there's a very compelling all-health argument behind the diet that goes beyond the counting of calories, fad diets, or other strictly weight loss driven approaches.

For those confused by the terminology, here's a quick guide:

"Plant based" is basically a less nutty way of saying vegan. No meat, poultry, fish, dairy, eggs or any other animal product. (There are subtle differences with "true believer" vegans who won't eat honey and so forth, but that's an aside here)

"Whole foods" is the premise that most foods are far better off consumed close to their natural state, as little processing as possible. In practice, this means (some variability here): use whole grains rather than processed "white" grains, no refined sugars, reduce as much as possible your use of oils (even "healthy" oils like olive oil), and in general stick to the fewer-ingredient, less-processed options whenever possible.

What is generally implied by the use of both phrases together (essentially the message of "Forks Over Knives") is that you eat a diet nearly exclusively derived from plants, and get rid of nearly all the processed foods and chemical additives. There are derivatives of this general direction from author to author and site to site, but the principle is the same -- the over-processed, over-animaled, over-advertised and over-subsidized American diet is based on a lie, appeals to our worst side, and is largely what's making us obese and sick as a country.

Sorry if my earlier post came off sarcastic. I think many of us are sensitive regarding this issue and I was grumpy at the time.

The main things that have really worked for:

1. Eating 6-7 times throughout the day instead of 3. This includes eating less at each meal (holidays withstanding), but overall more. With each meal, I make sure to have a protein source, but veggies and nuts and the like are all great to include as well.

2. Regular weight lifting. While I've increased the intensity of my workouts as I became stronger, even lifting a few times a week for 30 minutes is huge. It increases your resting metabolic rate. Also, I have a set of Ironmaster dumbells with the extra weight additions and a super bench with attachments and I can get a good workout on any part of my body. To start out even just doing a combo of pushups and squats with your body weight can help a lot.

3. I kind of mentioned it, but protein consumption. I am sure you don't need what I do, but just making sure I have consistent protein sources throughout the day helps me a lot.

4. low carb count in the evening. You can have some with dinner, but assuming you eat 6 and go to bed at 11 or so, very little or no carbs at all after your dinner.

5. Limit junk food. And if you do have some of these, eat them in the morning or early afternoon. Working in a school they always have junk food around, but try to avoid eating it and or have a little if its early in the day. I also dont keep any junk food at all in the house. It's important you get your calories from quality foods.

6. Drink plenty of water, and no soda, juice, etc... I have an occasional diet soda which I know isn't good for me, but predominantly drink water or the 10 calories version of vitamin water if I want something flavored.

Oh the last thing I was going which helped a lot was I found a sport I really enjoyed to play that was good exercise. Before I hurt my ankle I played floorball twice a week for two hours each time. This alone probably burned a pound each week cause there is a lot of running and moving while playing. And while my ankle still isn't 100%, I started playing regularly again in November, though games are down for a few weeks during the holidays.

Ordered this book earlier today and will watch the movie tomorrow on Netflix. My diet is pretty good most of the time, but I like to weekend/holiday binge and that really kills me. My main fear has always been getting some of the essential vitamins and enough protein with this type of diet, without having to eat tons of Soy.

Currently I am pretty much back to the level of activity I was at pre Achilles tendon rupture last March. Strength training 4-5 times a week and 8+ miles on an eliptical trainer 5 times a week. Will probably resume Jiu Jitsu as well over the next couple of weeks, so obviously I want to maintain a good enough protein intake to feed my muscles.

Anybody doing this diet or something similar, but still using a whey protein supplement? I use Lean One from nutrition 53 for the aminos and various other things and was considering following this diet while keeping the Lean One as part of it.

I googled this and the very first article that came up was a news item from the Harvard Gazette.

Hormones in milk can be dangerous

Cows are milked up to 300 times per year and are often pregnant while being milked. The farther along into pregnancy a cow is, the higher its estrogen levels are, and this is passed along through the milk. We get 60-80% of our estrogen from dairy sources.

Pregnant cows produce up to 33x more estrogen than non-pregnant cows.

The takeaway is that - even if lungs is right and cows are not being pumped full of estrogen, they still produce enough in their own right to have some cause for concern.

I think we're all sensitive about this issue...yeah :).

Cool. Yeah...I definitely don't eat 6x per day, or probably eat all that much protein. But one of my goals for the new year is to shift from doing more cardio to more of a mix of cardio+lifting, so I'm thinking ahead to how I'll have to adjust my diet.

Quality calories is definitely huge. I've basically cut all the bad food down a minimum - sure I'll have a cookie at lunch and some type of sweet lower-calorie dessert, but that's it. And I probably still have a bit too many carbs at dinner/snacking after dinner (although a couple handfuls of dry cheerios aren't going to kill me), but just trying to plan ahead for how I could/will need to change things up in the New Year.

No worries man!

One thing that the plat-based movement suggests is that our need for both protein and calcium is dramatically overstated. I don't claim personal expertise in this regard (and I know it's heretical to most people to make this argument) but there's a pretty substantial body of evidence suggesting that our common school-taught stress on protein for growth/health and calcium for bones/teeth may be misguided.

In any event, a lot of "experts" agree that getting 10% of your calories from protein is suitable, and that's a snap. I'm getting between 60-80 grams of protein a day without really stressing over it at all. Calcium is another divisive issue, but there's a ton of calcium in leafy green vegetables making that a pretty easy target as well if you're committed to pursuing a target amount in your diet.

It is pretty amazing to see the difference of opinions in this thread and on the topic as a whole. I think someone made a good point that it is very similar to religion. It just goes to show that no one really knows what is best for us.

I tired the paleo diet for a little bit and got results from it. I had increased energy levels, clearer skin, etc. The only problem is you spend a lot of time cooking the food and I was too lazy for it.

The paleo diet makes the argument that modern diseases such as obesity, heart disease, and autism did not show up until the agriculture revolution. I have not seen the documentary, but I am assuming it blames meat for heart disease, etc. I don't think anyone knows what is truly correct for our bodies.

The only thing both diets seem to agree on is processed foods. So I guess if your are looking at being healthier, that is the first thing that you should cut out.

The original claim that we pump our cows full of estrogen was probably mistaking estrogen for somatotropin supplementation. Completely different things, and the only link between somatotropin and estrogen is that supplemented cows will have slightly elevated levels of estradiol at the stage of estrous where estradiol increases (this takes place on a single day).

Just paging through the Endocrinology of Pregnancy and while I don't have any clear cut numbers, it states that estrogen levels in pregnant cattle are low through most of the pregnancy but near-term is where estrogen levels peak. Standard practice is to not milk cows in the last 60 days of pregnancy to allow the cows' mammary tissue to regenerate. I'll try to dig around for more concrete information from scientific sources. But from what I do know at this point, we do not harvest milk from cows at peak levels of estrogen production.

The article is also a bit misleading about milking of pregnant cows. While it is correct that we do milk lots of pregnant cows (it's not economical or healthy to the cow to feed her for 9 months while not milking), they really don't quantify the proportion of cows being milked while pregnant. Using my herd as an example, 36% (159 of 436) of my cows being milked are pregnant. This number usually ranges from the 35-50% in herds that don't calve seasonally. 13% of my herd is from 1-100 days pregnant, 15% are from 101-200 days pregnant and 9% are over 200 days and like I said earlier, we don't milk anything that is 60 or fewer days to calving.

And that's all without considering that peak production occurs from 100-150 days post calving when any pregnant cows are in the earliest stages of pregnancy. There is a 25 pound difference in daily production between my peak milk production/non-pregnant or early pregnancy cows (81 lbs/day) and cows that have been pregnant over 200 days (56 lbs/day).

So take what you will from my own information. I'm fairly typical, though seasonal calving herds like in New Zealand will be different as almost all milking cows are in the same stages of lactation and pregnancy in seasonal calving herds. I just think that the article posted blows things out of proportion and at worst is downright misleading considering that nobody milks cows straight through a pregnancy.

If I don't eat protein, I get shaky fairly soon after eating. And nut-based sources of protein have me not feeling very well either later, not sure if it's a mild allergy or what (my daughter is allergic to cashews and pistachios, but not peanuts for some odd reason).

We're not supposed to eat fats (bad for your heart), carbs (bad for diabetes and weight), or now animal-based protein (causes cancer). Gluten is bad and has been linked to autism.

When scientists finally figure out what I'm allowed to eat, I'll eat a diet that helps keep my weight in line and helps me have energy through the day. I'lll conitnue following the golden rule: you need a little bit of everything, but not too much of anything.

I like to look at diet through a fairly simple evolutionary lens. Clearly our bodies were designed for the diet that our ancestors long ago ate. The main difference between then and now is scarcity.

Those of us in modern America do not deal with scarcity. We have the appetite for sweet foods, fatty foods and meats that our ancestors developed, yet do not have the scarcity of those items to balance it. We do not have to find a fruit tree in season, or hunt an animal to satisfy those needs. +

So it seems natural to me that we are going to desire more fat, more sweets and more meat than we should eat. We live in an "unnatural" setting, and so are going to have to get used to the idea that we have to resist our natural urges and find ways to eat that replicate somewhat what our bodies were built for. It's difficult because our ancestors could want sweets all they want, it didn't mean they had them, but we have to build up mental skills to control our appetites. I think one thing a vegetarian diet has going for it is that it's much simpler to just decide you won't meat, for example, than to attempt to stick to artificial limits. I was a vegetarian for 14 years and had no problem with it, but now that I eat meat it's much harder to resist the urges and eat a reasonable amount.

I still think it all comes down to which diet will prevent you from overeating. A lot of the details seem to be people overthinking things.

Thanks lungs. You have always struck me as a fairly responsible dairy farmer, but one that doesn't necessarily serve as representative for the rest of your industry.

Those of us in the industry argue amongst ourselves enough, we really don't have a unifying message anyway.

Many farmers aren't really in the position to defend themselves against attacks because they've never sat through a semester of Advanced Reproductive Physiology and other such courses. Now to be honest, before this estrogen thing came up, I didn't know the answer nor had I ever considered it. The first comment about us pumping our cows full of estrogen got a bit of a condescending answer from me because I get sick of hearing comments like that where absolutely no research has gone into them other than hearing or reading something on the internet from poor alarmist sources.

Now when you posted the article you did, I had more to work with. The easiest part for me was that I could just go back to a physiology book and tie it into my own practices (which are common practices for all farmers) to at least dispel some of the alarm the article creates.

I'll leave the choice of whether the consumer wants to consume the end-product up to the consumer. For a lot of people in this thread, consuming lots of dairy or any at all is not their best choice and that's fine. I just find a lot of the hysteria in how we derive our products to be completely overblown.

I try to stay out of a lot of the arguments on Twitter and such because the discourse is too extreme for me. If I was having this same conversation on Twitter with some nut, it'd probably involve that person accusing me of being a Monsanto hack or other industry hack even when I clearly got my information from a physiology text book and my own herd. I'm more comfortable discussing things around here where the discourse is at least above adolescence for the most part. "Agvocacy" is a new word that's pretty big in the ag industry as a whole. I'll do my part in my own corner of the world here, but I have no desire to bring my own brand of agvocacy to the masses. The masses suck.

For those who are interested in the background on some of this thinking, you might find this site to be interesting:

NutritionFacts.org

Dr. Michael Greger specializes in surveying the latest studies regarding health and nutrition, and sorts through to pull out the findings, or lack thereof. He is, by virtue of his own research, a plant-based advocate, but in my estimation he gives a pretty fair treatment of a wide range of issues.

His site is also pretty easy-to-take, as it's published as a YouTube hosted video blog. A recent item was of interest to me personally, as I lost my dad just last year to an aortic aneurysm, and Shermer talks about a large study detailing risk factors for such afflictions:

How to help prevent abdominal aortic aneurysms | NutritionFacts.org

For someone like me, with my own still-evolving views, I'm surprised to see that the top thing one can do through diet to reduce risk of these aneurysms is... stop eating animals altogether. So it goes.

By the way, I have been unusually crunched at work of late, but I do plan to share a few more links that I'd recommend for those interested in these issues.

As a teaser, here's a very useful survey of information on the advantages of a plant-based diet, hosted by the site of one of the docs featured in Forks Over Knives and the author of The China Study:

*Articles*&#124* T. Colin Campbell Foundation

Okay, a few more nutshell thoughts here, more or less my own personal non-medical distillation of things I have been trying to read and understand for the last year or so.

-If weight loss is primary, or singular, on your list of goals, I don't think it's likely that you're going to see massive magical changes just from switching to a plant-based whole-foods diet, even if you do so pretty effectively. My suspicion is that most people who make the change end up making an implicit change in their calorie intake/burning, and I remain inclined to agree with most people that this is the principal underlying element of nearly all meaningful weight loss. Switching to a smarter plant based diet could well help you lose weight, but perhaps not much more than just counting calories and getting more exercise in a conventional (and maybe easier) sense. That's going to be an up-to-you deal, I think.

On that note - I finally got serious about calories within the last few months, and have seen a productive move on the scale while doing so. Some sort of discipline system (I'm using an web/app system called Lose It!) is the key for me, as it has helped me be more reticent to grab those six fruit juice-sweetened vegan cookies as a quick snack... not against the rules, but 300 calories I don't really need.

The *real* reason to make the big diet switch isn't to lose weight. It's to improve your overall health. I think we all have always understood at some level the general argument from every nutrition study -- it always goes like this: if you eat less of this [bad food], your chance of [bad thing] drops by [some percentage]. Right? Okay, let's set aside the powerful evidence about cancer, diabetes, autoimmune diseases, dementia, and allergies for a minute -- since while the evidence suggests that a plant-based diet helps all these, it's just a percentages game. Let's just focus on heart disease, our civilized country's number one killer and the massive driver in government and private costs on health care.

People who switch to this kind of diet can almost immediately make themselves essentially heart attack proof. You can get off your statins, your beta blockers, and your blood pressure medications. Nobody in this country has to die of a heart attack, and nobody needs to be in a debilitating long-term situation because of these maladies. If you believe you're just out of luck because it's in your family history, you're missing the point. Eat better, don't smoke, and that's pretty much it. It's just off-the-charts powerful.

I'm exactly the guy who is a candidate to have a heart attack before I'm out of my 40s, unless I get my act together. Incremental stuff -- less fatty food, more exercise, and so forth -- would all help. This switch in lifestyle and diet could mean much more than that.


-If you are interested in trying to eat more healthily overall, but not sold on completely eclipsing animal products from your diet, I'd recommend a look at this site:

Dr. Joel Fuhrman Improves Health - Lose Weight Naturally | Reverse Diabetes | Prevent Heart Disease and Cancer | Lower Cholesterol

He's the author of a best selling book Eat To Live, and his basic pitch is to eat nutrient-dense foods as the foundation of your diet. He has a "holiday challenge" that asks participants to do several things for six weeks:


There's honestly nothing on that list that is impossible to do. And his approach is basically that if you build a foundation like that (for me, that turns out to be something like 1000 calories a day, with <10g of fat and roughly 25-30g of protein) and remain reasonable with the rest of what you eat, you are going to land in a good place.

Signing up for the pledge to do it for 6 weeks gets you a free gold pass to his sit with a lot of other information and strategies. Incidentally, Fuhrman himself is plant-based arising from his own research, but he does not insist that his patients/followers completely eschew animal products (just get rid of most of them) -- so if you're looking for a rounded edge, there's an angle.

A very attractive thing about Fuhrman's approach is that if you switch to eating for nutrition (for lack of a clearer term), you can get to the point where you actually trust your body, and your hunger. He writes convincingly about "toxic hunger" as that feeling we get when we don't really need to eat but still want to... and a compelling pitch of his is that once you get out of eating garbage, your body will only be craving nutrients. So, when you're hungry, it's because you need to eat -- not because of the wide range of other reasons most of us hit the pantry once too often. I like that thinking, personally.


-If you're actually interested in learning more about the science behind this thinking, to me the best read on the topic has been ::: THE CHINA STUDY ::: , as mentioned above. I had already committed to dietary changes by the time I actually read it myself, but I have since bought a gift copy for five or six friends (people who have expressed interest, I'm not trying to proselytize to every audience).

Watching the documentary "Forks Over Knives" is obviously a quick test of whether you're open to the ideas. It's well done, but it's abbreviated and simplified by necessity. However, you get a glimpse at the super strong connections between the modern diet and so many health problems that it at least can be an eye opener.

From there, there are a lot of directions to go. One I find approachable is the Engine 2 Diet, another best seller from bookstores and now being promoted at Whole Foods groceries. Pitch there is a group of Texas firefighters engaged in a plant-based challenge, and saw all their measurable health conditions improve massively, leaving nearly all of them permanent converts. The book is a combination rah-rah with a somewhat male-oriented slant, and then a decent series of recipes (most of them pretty reliable).

What's wrong with artificial sweeteners?

Some studies link many of them (but not all of them) to increase chance of various cancers.

And speaking from personal experience, most of them give me heart burn and make me feel a lot hungrier throughout the day. The only one that hasn't is stevia, but I haven't tried erythritol.

Here's one of the videos from NutritionFactsOrg that QS linked to before about artificial sweeteners: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdec8clsV7Q

Something my brother pointed out the other day:

We all have to die of something. Fact of the matter is that so many of the things that used to kill us don't anymore (look at how many people survive heart attacks for instance), so eventually people end up dying from Cancer as it's one of the most resistant to treatment in elderly.

So really...it's not that instances of cancer are increasing...it's that everything else is decreasing. Not that long ago people would die of other things at an age before they really had a chance to develop cancer. That's not the case anymore.

Note: obviously people who are not elderly can get cancer too. I'm not trying to attribute all instances of cancer to this or anything...just a random thought.

That's a great point actually. I was doing some baseball related research and was really shocked at how many people under 50 were dying of consumption (TB) in the late 1800's and early 1900's. TB was a death sentence back then and now is not only rare in westernized countries, but only fatal in about 4% of cases.

The largest study that was done showed no correlation. It used half a million people and was independant. There really aren't any reliable studies that show a link.

The only downsides I've seen are that people think they can eat a lot more if they drink diet soda.

This is a good point. Many of the deadliest cancers occur in elderly people. I'd be curious to see if cancer rates have increased for say people under 50.

Please understand that this is not the first time someone has contemplated age as a variable in studying things like cancer. You'll see the term "age adjusted" as a common element in all the most viable studies about cancer appearance.

I'll have two big macs, a large fries, and filet o fish please. Oh and a diet coke

First off, I truly enjoy eating certain meats. A thic juicy steak, count me in. And if that is one of my pleasures in life, what is the purpose of sustaining existence if you remove all pleasures.

All that said, I am not sure how you conduct a fair study. I'd love to see a study of heart attack incidents in marathon runners, who eat meat for example. I imagine most who take on a vegan life style are also generally more healthy in general than a 2 pot of coffee, 2 pack of cigs and fried twinkie fiend. SO is it the meat causing the cancers, or the absence of exercise?

For example, many of my father's family lived long lives. His grandmother and her brother each live to 105. The brother (my great great uncle who I adored as a child) smoked and dipped snuff til his dieing day, enjoyed a shot of whicky now and then (every day) drank sweet tea so thick you had to chew it, and fried three meals a day every day he lived. BUT at 105 he died in his sleep after a full day of raking autumn leaves. I never saw the man sit before 6pm and then only for the evening news before he went back outside. A daily routine was fried bacon AND sausage with a fired egg for breakfast, a fried bologna sandwich for lunch (slathered in mayo) and some fried meat for dinner. So does he just have lucky genes? Or was his uncommon activity level the cure for the ailments?

I know very few lazy vegetarians...to me I find activity level to be the biggest indicator, but admitttedly I have done no thorough scientific reseacrh study to test that theory. But there are many low carb advocates that subsist on 80+% meat based diets that claim to have lower incident rates of heart disease as well.

Got the recipe book for this today and there are some interesting concoctions in there. Looking forward to trying it out. We have some chicken and fish to get through still, but when they are gone I plan on giving this a serious effort. I will use a whey protein supplement, but apart from that stay true to the diet.

I want to tag on to CU Tigers post too as he brings up an interesting point about staying active while living an "unhealthy" lifestyle.

I think you can look at NFL players for a partial answer to this. during their careers they really eat a less than healthy diet for the most part loaded with carbs, calories and fat to get the protein and fuel they need for their high level of exercise/performance. They burn a ton of calories and reap the benefits of elite level exercise, but also have a shorter life span than the average population.

How much of this is due to the physical toll of playing football at that level takes on the body, vs how much can be attributed to maintaining the same type of diet, while becoming sedentary or reducing their physical activity a great deal would make for an interesting debate. I would love to see a study on this.

I think he presented an interesting point on the activity / diet argument. That said, I don't think looking at former NFL players tells you anything on this as there is just too many other variables to account for. The physical toll on the body, possible steroid use, changing activity level (but keeping same diet) once retired, etc...

Not a drastic change as I don't gplan to chane my protein consumption, but now that I am going into more of a cute mode I plan to incorporate more fruit and veggies into my diet as slightly less animal based product for more of a balance. I had been eating pretty bad over the holidays, so this should help along with more cardio now that I can run without pain and swelling in my ankle.

I eat things that are tasty. Over indulgence in anything you eat is not healthy. I'm not worried about living to 100 or 150. If I live to 80, great. A steak tastes great, so does broccoli, so does chocolate cake, so does corn. You can eat whatever you want (other than for medical or allergy reasons), whenever you want. You just can't always eat the chocolate cake or the ice cream all the time. I love donuts, but, I don't eat them all the time. I may go months without having any.

I just think it's odd that someone (I'm not saying anyone here) would completely cut out tasty foods simply because of a fear of it being 'unhealthy', unless there's a medical condition involved. It reminds me of when women complain about eating a piece of cheesecake will make them fat. No, eating several pieces of cheesecake, day after day and not exercising, will make you fat.

However, using the law of supply and demand, all you vegans and vegetarians, keep it up, since I would not complain one bit if the price of steak went down.

I'm not that concerned about living forever either, although I would like to be around and highly functional for my kids as long as possible, since I didn't have them until my mid-30s. My main goal is to avoid the dragged out, lingering death due to cancer, a stroke, or things of that nature. I don't think anyone in this thread is trying to tell others what to eat. I think most of us on the eat less meat side are just mentioning what we are doing for ourselves. I can't make you wear a helmet or stop riding motorcycles. I can't stop you from smoking. I can't prevent you from eating nothing but meat and dairy all the time. I can and have done those things for myself. To each their own. As for me, I'm not giving up eating meat. Just cutting it way back so that it is an occasional treat instead of a staple food in my diet. Same thing goes for soda. Hopefully that works out well for me and my health improves. An ounce of prevention and all that. I just had a friend from high school die at the age of 40 from some undisclosed disease. It was a bit of an eye opener. I don't know that it was diet-related, but I suspect it was a factor for him.

This movie was so boring. I watched it sort of as a kickstart for a New Year diet type thing, and I just wasn't engaged at all. I found the portion of the movie that talks about the lady who got her cancer to go into remission mostly based on diet and exercise somewhat irresponsible.

I hear you man. I don't have kids, but, want at least one, so I would like to be around and mobile as they grow up. Soda is pretty big. It's so convenient to get and it's fairly cheap. I force myself to buy water or juice (usually apple or orange juice). There is no soda at all in my house. I eat mostly chicken and I'll get a prime rib on Fridays and every once in a while, I'll eat some porkchops. However, I always try and have a large portion of vegetables with whatever I'm eating.

I just think there's certain things we have no control over when we get hit by something like cancer. My grandpa (my dads dad) had bone cancer and prostate cancer. Skinny as a rail, ate pretty healthy, always was doing some kind of physical activity, but, cancer still came calling. However, he got the last laugh. He died about a week after breaking his neck from falling in the shower.

I'm all for doing little things to help my odds. :)

Been meat and diary free all week, made our first dish from the Forks over Knives cookbook tonight. Black bean and rice casserole on polenta crust, pretty damn tasty. Also surprised how good vanilla almond milk tastes.

After my Holiday binging I was up to 222 last Sunday. (And this with still working out 2 times a day, 5 days a week.

I weighed 217.6 this morning, goal is to get to 195 by the time the Naga western regionals are contested in the spring so I can compete in the 197 weight class.

This is not as big of an adjustment as I thought it would be......so far anyway.

I'm still adhering to the mostly plant-based diet as well. I've lost 8 pounds in 3 weeks (I also cut out soda). I still have the occasional meat or dairy, but only as a treat, not as a staple in my diet. I only drink soda when we go out to eat. Last night we had some yummy veggie tacos with black beans. So far, I have been surprised by how easy most of the dietary changes have been. It does take a little more prep time -- I have to get my salad/fruit/smoothie stuff ready the night before for each day at work.

Good for you guys. Glad you're finding the dietary switch isn't all that tough - I agree, it was much simpler than I had anticipated, too.

Trying to gradually get there. Have only had meat once since the new year and that was as a guest at a dinner party.

Meat is pretty easy to cut out. Dairy is next, although my big "wins" there are no ice cream since the new year (which is a HUGE problem for me) and no yogurt. Still having trouble staying away from cheese but better than I was.

On the other front, eating a lot less eggs than before. Another tough one to give up.

Just to tie it all together, told my wife I wouldn't eat sugar this year - that is harder to do because sugar is an ingredient in so many foods. In the house we are using honey or agave as a substitute.

And the protein thing is kind of ridiculous. I get plenty from greens, nuts, legumes, etc..

Not that I'm trying this, but even with my low-carb outlook and no sugar added ice cream, I need to cut down on it. I also need to cut down on the meats and cheeses, which won't be easy considering I have about ten summer sausages now from the holidays.

I *am* very much enjoying making concoctions with beans though. Mixtures of black beans/black-eyed peas/okra/tomatoes/greens/spinach/etc. Tasty, and very filling.

Made a squash and apple soup the other day that was also surprisingly filling.

We eat a lot of homemade hummus. It's really easy with an immersion blender, and there is so much you can do with it. We skip the oil in it, so that makes it better.

Since I started really eating this way, my blood pressure is down from 135/70, which is where I had been for years, down to 123/62. That all by itself is pretty amazing.

I've had some poor stretches of eating, especially the last few weeks that have been pretty stressful for me, but I still feel committed to it. I find that when I do drink dairy milk (maybe 5 times since August), or eat a lot of junk or sugar that my body responds by not feeling well. It's something I had never noticed before, but it's hard to miss now.

I was also a big cheese lover. Daiya is the best Vegan cheese substitute I have found, it comes in Cheddar, Pepperjack and Mozzarella and tastes pretty good and the best part is it melts realistically. I get it at Sprouts, but I am sure any farmers/organic market would have it.

I also made an alfredo sauce with tofu last night that was really good, added 2 types of mushrooms to the sauce and had it over whole wheat pasta. Pretty happy that I can still have a lot of the things I love and they taste pretty much the same as the "real thing."

Minimizing cheese?

That's a no-go for me.

Cheese > Ice Cream

I love hummus (though I need to dip something other than tortilla chips in it, probably - pepper slices perhaps) and bought an immersion blender to make the soup. :thumbsup: Time to start making some myself.

For fruit smoothies, which I usually make with lowfat yogurt, I substituted light silken tofu and added agave to sweeten it a bit. I won't lie - the yogurt version tastes better, but the tofu version is decent too.

Speaking of Tofu. My wife has a recipe for a Cream Cheese Jalapeno Popper dip. It's totally vegan. We had it at our New Years Eve party and our guest swore that they thought it was real cream cheese. Yummy stuff.

Can you PM this to me? This would fill a huge snack need :)

Thank you

Sorry this took so long man. Here is the entire recipe.

With the Mayo it isn't totally vegan, but it's very little and yummy.

From Mrs. PilotMan


Tofutti is the tofu cream cheese in case you were wondering.

I have breakfast pretty well down now. I used to eat a lot of eggs and bacon or stop at starbucks and get a sausage/cheddar sandwich or scone (OR BOTH!)

Now I am doing two packs of regular instant oatmeal, chopped walnuts, dried fruit (usually cherries but anything we have) and a teaspoon of maple syrup. I could probably go steel cut or something a little more "whole foods" but I am actually a little more concerned about the chemicals they put on dried fruit - so I have been on the lookout for dried fruit without sulfur dioxide.

BYU - thanks for the heads-up on the vegan cheese. Will give it a try.

That is about the exact breakfast I plan to start eating, I will just be adding 5 egg whites to it :p

If you're trying to do oatmeal, I can't recommend this stuff highly enough:

McCANN'S Steel Cut Irish Oatmeal, 28-Ounce Tins (Pack of 4): Amazon.com: Grocery & Gourmet Food

And for crying out loud... ir you're going to make an effort, make an effort. get rid of the 13-unpronouncable-ingredient packets, man up, and boil some fucking water. Even buying the dirt cheap rolled oats from the shelf is much cheaper than instant packets, far better for you, and at worst it takes 5 minutes to make. Seriously.

We tend to make a batch by tossing it into the slow cooker at night, and it's great for the morning. Works well for grits, too, if that's your thing.

If you want to get serious with your oatmeal, some crushed nuts and/or things like flaxseed can make it even more of an energy boost for the morning. Bob's Red Mill makes a pretty good multi-grain hot cereal as well, if you're looking for variety.

If you're reading stuff like this, with an eye toward heart disease more than other things like cancer or weight loss... here are a couple of links:

The promo piece:
The 'heart attack proof' diet? - CNN.com

The full video (about 42 minutes):
Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

Here's your takeaway: if we just changed our diets and nothing else we probably could reduce deaths and serious medical problems from heart disease virtually to zero, even in this country.

COme on mna...even if it is true we dont have the evidence to support that statement, neither does either link.

In the very unlikely event that you're interested in reading and/or learning about the topic, there's quite a lot of information on the topic available.

Sites like:

http://www.heartattackproof.com/resolving_cade.htm

Plant-based foods and prevention of cardiovascular disease: an overview

The Science Behind Clinton's Plant-Based Diet Program

Engine 2

http://engine2diet.com/~engine2/usrf...e-and-diet.pdf

http://engine2diet.com/~engine2/usrf...everse-chd.pdf

I don't personally claim the medical or scientific expertise to arbitrate among competing claims in this area, and regret if I have left that impression.

I am a rational person, I have read quite a lot of material on this topic (including a number of detractors) and have come away very impressed that there's an awful lot to it. To me, The China Study was just immensely powerful -- with a major research study looking across one culture (and thereby removing most dramatic effects of racial/ethnic differences) the prevalence of a whole slate of diseases are powerfully connected to the presence of animal products and processed foods in our diets.

I am trying to be careful in my claims here, as well. I'm not saying that we could wipe out cancer, diabetes, autoimmune diseases, and the like with dietary changes -- while the effects are seemingly powerful in all those cases, it doesn't appear that we could simply win the battles there with diet alone. But with heart disease in particular, I believe we probably could. That's our country's number one killer by far, and it appears as though nobody needs to be dying of it.

I know I sound like a cultist here... and it's possible that this is some bill of goods designed to sell a little product and make a few people famous. Can't rule it out, I suppose.

So what's the downside if I and my family start eating way, way healthier than before? Maybe my personal risk of dying of a heart attack in my 40s or 50s drops by only 50% instead of 100%? Maybe my kids don't really make huge gains in preventing cancer, but only yield healthier bodies and minds by virtue of eating better. I can live with partial outcomes like that, I think, even if I'm being "duped" into making these healthier choices.

Rip Esselstyn does a "TED talk" at an Austin event, pretty interesting whether it's legit or propaganda.

Thanks...Ive read through some sites there and have some homework for the week.

I really want this to be true....Heart Disease is a big issue for my family. I just haven't seen anything that I couldnt point out other significant factors that werent standardized for.