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-   -   Werewolf CXXIV - Watchmen (Game Over, Wolves Win!, endpost:704) (http://forums.operationsports.com/fofc//showthread.php?t=80532)

jeff061 02-07-2011 09:04 PM

Christ guys. I told you he was the hunter.

The Jackal 02-07-2011 09:05 PM

You awaken to find two of your members missing, DV and jeff, their hands clasped in their final moments.

DV was Laurie Juspeczyk (Silk Spectre II)
jeff was Daniel Dreiberg (Nite Owl II)

Danny 02-07-2011 09:06 PM

Crap

The Jackal 02-07-2011 09:07 PM

With only four of you left, there is little reason to keep up any further charades. The remaining wolves step forward and reveal themselves.

Ozymandias directs Janey Slater to lead Rorschach and his minutemen companion outside into an endless ocean of ice. The two will be left to starve and think upon their failures.

Chief Rum was Walter Joseph Kovacs (Rorschach)
hoopsguy was a vanilla villager

Danny was Adrian Veidt (Ozymandias)
J23 was Janey Slater

The wolves have won!

Danny 02-07-2011 09:08 PM

And the world is mine!!!

The Jackal 02-07-2011 09:09 PM

I'll listen to what people thought about the game balance. It was definitely a tough one to pull, but I thought with all the villager roles and Dr. Manhattan's extra powers, a lot of things could have happened.

PF had an instantkill power that if he had used today, could have definitely made things more interesting.

jeff061 02-07-2011 09:09 PM

I'm going to go on record a saying I don't like cunnings and to a lesser degree hidden roles :D.

Seriously though, first game I've played with them. Seems like a total crapshoot? Is it ever anything but? I still think Eagle was the right choice with the information at hand and literally ignored everything Hoops said simply because I thought it was irrelevant info.

Autumn 02-07-2011 09:09 PM

Wow.

jeff061 02-07-2011 09:09 PM

Screw you Danny!!! :D.

The Jackal 02-07-2011 09:10 PM

Dr. Jonathan Osterman (Doctor Manhattan) - You are the Duke, and may once per game change the outcome of the vote. You cannot be nightkilled or lynched, but once you are revealed (either by being scanned, targeted for a NK, or revealing yourself), there will be a mechanism by which the wolves can kill you that you will not know. If you are targeted for a NK, you will remain alive and be revealed in the thread. If you are scanned by a wolf, you will be aware of it, but not learn who the wolf is, and will not be forcibly revealed in the thread.

Hidden powers:


May once during the course of the game instantly kill a player. Can only use this power if you still have the Duke ability, and cannot use it until at least day 3. Use of this power forfeits the duke ability, and reveals you in the thread if you have not been revealed prior.


If the comedian is killed, may act as bodyguard in his stead, but only every other night, and cannot protect yourself. If you are protecting either of the Silk Spectres (should they be in the game) and they are attacked, you will kill the attacker.

jeff061 02-07-2011 09:10 PM

But seriously. It does seem with a cunning the game is absolutely 100% about luck.

The Jackal 02-07-2011 09:10 PM

Danny is Adrian Veidt (Ozymandias)

You organized this rendezvous and are controlling things behind the scenes with your partners in crime. You are the cunning wolf, and if scanned by Rorschach you will appear to be good. Since Mothman is not in the game, you are brutal as well as cunning.


Hidden Powers:


May once during the game choose one of the wolves' votes (any of you) to count as three votes. Order must be submitted by night deadline.


May once during the game choose to nullify a Duking at a night deadline. This order must be submitted by the deadline, so it will be merely a guess at whether or not Manhattan will use the power that night. If successful, Manhattan may or may not be able to Duke again later.

Danny 02-07-2011 09:11 PM

This game could have gone either way Jackal. so the balance seems ok. If PF had used his instant kill that definitely could have changed things. Dr. Manhattan was pretty damn powerful as it turns out.

Autumn 02-07-2011 09:12 PM

From the outside (since you guys killed me as soon as possible), it seemed balanced. The village had a chance here, they just barked up the wrong tree. Not that I would have been better. Danny deserves major props for somehow evading any attention at all. Despite being Danny. Come on guys.

EagleFan 02-07-2011 09:12 PM

:(

Good game wolves.

I was afraid that Danny was just being an UTR wolf but it seemed that hoops kept coming back at me.

Danny 02-07-2011 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff061 (Post 2421353)
But seriously. It does seem with a cunning the game is absolutely 100% about luck.


It's not, voting records are actually great things to look at. If I hadn't voted Saldana day 2, I think I was the easy choice as the cunning based on vote records. I took the risk on that day to help myself down the line and it payed off but it was also very risky as Saldana was almost lynched.

The Jackal 02-07-2011 09:15 PM

And also, though the cultist was in the game, he didn't know who the wolves were prior to the game starting, so he's not all that effective unless he figured it out by the end.

I'll post the ways to kill Dr. Manhattan here next.

jeff061 02-07-2011 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn (Post 2421358)
From the outside (since you guys killed me as soon as possible), it seemed balanced. The village had a chance here, they just barked up the wrong tree. Not that I would have been better. Danny deserves major props for somehow evading any attention at all. Despite being Danny. Come on guys.



Well I mean that's the thing. I'm sure I'm just noob talking :D. But seer lasts til the end and clears 3 villagers. Leading to a 33% guess. Voting records are pretty worthless until the game gets tight. You have to straight up purposely play a bad game or just get unlucky.

The Jackal 02-07-2011 09:15 PM

If Janey Slater is still alive when Dr. Manhattan is revealed, she can execute a day kill upon him, if the wolves sacrifice the previous night kill.

If Janey Slater is not alive when Manhattan is revealed, the wolves can sacrifice a night kill to have Manhattan killed during the day, two day phases after the sacrificed kill.


If Manhattan is left in an even ratio situation between the villagers and wolves, the wolves will win, as he will grow agitated with humanity and leave Earth.

The Jackal 02-07-2011 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff061 (Post 2421365)
Well I mean that's the thing. I'm sure I'm just noob talking :D. But seer lasts til the end and clears 3 villagers. Leading to a 33% guess. Voting records are pretty worthless until the game gets tight. You have to straight up purposely play a bad game or just get unlucky.


The cunning is always tough to nail down, but you have to look at it like no one has been scanned, and judge people on their votes and their posts. That's what you usually have to do anyways, its rare the seer makes it to the end of the game and that so many people can role reveal.

Lathum 02-07-2011 09:16 PM

I royally screwed up by not voting Saldana when I should have. I was also going to not protect myself N1 and hope I didn't go down but I didn't do it. Had I then [email protected] I would have fought off the attack.

jeff061 02-07-2011 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 2421362)
It's not, voting records are actually great things to look at. If I hadn't voted Saldana day 2, I think I was the easy choice as the cunning based on vote records. I took the risk on that day to help myself down the line and it payed off but it was also very risky as Saldana was almost lynched.


I know. But you did vote Saldana day 2 and I think that's an easy chance to take. That's my point :).

I'd say when there is a cunning in a game it devalues the seer a bit, which in turn devalues the wolf seer. Seems pretty obvious to me as a wolf to cast a vote or 2 on the wolf seer(assuming you don't have a vanilla).

Autumn 02-07-2011 09:18 PM

Well part of the thing is, cunning is useless unless they get scanned. I know I've been cunning a number of times, and usually I end up shooting myself in the foot trying to get myself scanned, and getting lynched instead. The power is useless unless you can get scanned, but trying to get yourself scanned almost always backfires. So it depends a lot who gets it.

And I think Danny is right, voting records and talking in thread is the best way to find wolves. The seer can get killed, and does most games without being much help. The cunning can't hide from these other tools.

It was incredibly lucky in this game the seer lasted this long. Most of the time they would have been killed first night, and you guys would have had to find three wolves by yourself anyway, cunning or not.

jeff061 02-07-2011 09:19 PM

Quote:

If Manhattan is left in an even ratio situation between the villagers and wolves, the wolves will win, as he will grow agitated with humanity and leave Earth.


Hah, that's great. I like that.

Danny 02-07-2011 09:20 PM

I don't like games with 2 wolves and 1 cunning, 3 wolves and 1 cunning still makes the seer a valuable role. 4 or more wolves obviously gives the seer tremendous value even with a cunning.

And the wolves knowing which roles were not in the game didn't help us much as both roles were not ones we could use as a fake reveal. If only helped in that the village wasn't sure if claimed roles were real.

EagleFan 02-07-2011 09:21 PM

I seriously screwed up in this game. I was scanning things too quickly.

My first vote jump is when I thought there was a sudden run on me but it ended up being hoops just posting the same thing a couple times.

I totally misread the CR reveal as well. When I clicked on the thread I saw last posted as DT. It seems that between that point and it loading the actua thread is when CR hit submit. I read the reveal and my mind was still thinking DT. I was completely floored trying to figure out why DT revealed when he wasn't in trouble (at that time). Then I saw the votes start to shift to me and I voted CR (and somewhere in there did my reveal) still not seeing how I screwed up.

At that point I figured I would just play it in the open as if I even tried to explain that time period it would just sound like a wolf trying to cover his tracks after messing up.

Oh well, such is life in werewolf.

Danny 02-07-2011 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn (Post 2421375)
Well part of the thing is, cunning is useless unless they get scanned. I know I've been cunning a number of times, and usually I end up shooting myself in the foot trying to get myself scanned, and getting lynched instead. The power is useless unless you can get scanned, but trying to get yourself scanned almost always backfires. So it depends a lot who gets it.
.


This is definitely how I played the role. I figured me being me would give me enough of a chance of being scanned, so I made sure not to play as if I wanted to be scanned.

Interesting is we had CR pegged as the seer before he revealed. I voted him to try and out him as after he posted his trust list I figured he scanned me and wanted him to come out with that info. It ended up backfiring as PF took over BG powers and was able to protect him. He probably doesn't protect him if CR doesn't have to reveal/

Autumn 02-07-2011 09:24 PM

Yeah, I have to say I thought that was a pretty obvious play by Chief Rum. It worked out obviously, but I was surprised to see him hint so clearly that quickly.

EagleFan 02-07-2011 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 2421378)
If only helped in that the village wasn't sure if claimed roles were real.


:(

jeff061 02-07-2011 09:25 PM

And that was the problem. You made some mistakes EF that implicated you with me. But on the flipside the reason Hoops and Danny didn't is more because they didn't post as much as you.

I really wanted to vote every day for the guys that didn't post. Just clear them out and remove that doubt. I may do that in the future. I wasn't upset or anything, people have lives, but I can't get a read on them one way or the other.

Hoops posting a bunch of numbers? Doesn't mean much when it comes to implying guilt or innocence.

Danny 02-07-2011 09:27 PM

Hoops and I play a different style than EF usually. We didn't post that much less.

J23 02-07-2011 09:28 PM

Also, if you had killed me rather than Saldana, we couldn't have killed Manhattan as quickly (would have had to wait the two days). Assuming I was the brutal ended up being pretty big misstep.

Darth Vilus 02-07-2011 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Jackal (Post 2421366)
If Manhattan is left in an even ratio situation between the villagers and wolves, the wolves will win, as he will grow agitated with humanity and leave Earth.



Is this how they one? I'm confused. And sorry for not showing up today guys, it was the first day of school. Totally threw me off

Danny 02-07-2011 09:30 PM

No, we day removed Dr. Manhattan from the game. That part of his role never came into play.

EagleFan 02-07-2011 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff061 (Post 2421388)
And that was the problem. You made some mistakes EF that implicated you with me. But on the flipside the reason Hoops and Danny didn't is more because they didn't post as much as you.

I really wanted to vote every day for the guys that didn't post. Just clear them out and remove that doubt. I may do that in the future. I wasn't upset or anything, people have lives, but I can't get a read on them one way or the other.

Hoops posting a bunch of numbers? Doesn't mean much when it comes to implying guilt or innocence.


The problem is that I think that I have backed myself into somewhat of a corner. Posting a lot can lead to problems if I don't post a lot in a game. I like trying to draw people out into posting. The more people post the more of a chance there is that they may say something they shouldn't have and outright contradict themselves. Plus I think that it makes the games more fun than a quiet thread.

jeff061 02-07-2011 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J23 (Post 2421392)
Also, if you had killed me rather than Saldana, we couldn't have killed Manhattan as quickly (would have had to wait the two days). Assuming I was the brutal ended up being pretty big misstep.


Yeah, well clearly there's really not a chance in hell that could have been foreseen. Worst case from our point of view is you are not a Brutal and it doesn't matter who gets lynched.

Autumn 02-07-2011 09:31 PM

I was reading for entertainment, but I definitely felt like Danny was unusually quiet. I would have been poking at him more if I was in game. EF did come across as fishy, but that happens with some villager in every game. I was surprised to see his reveal was real, coming after all those other reveals it did seem fake.

JAG 02-07-2011 09:31 PM

Hoops, it's funny you mentioned that earlier game with EF making a late role claim that seemed fishy. I was thinking about that same game as I read along and that was the only thing that gave me pause about him as wolf. Well played Danny. I was surprised Jeff gave out accurate info about which lover was which, that seemed to give the wolves a freebie.

EagleFan 02-07-2011 09:32 PM

Oh, and Lathum beat me to the day one vote. I was going to vote Danny since he checked in as a wolf the previous day. Who knew it would have been the best thing to do on day one.

Autumn 02-07-2011 09:33 PM

Yeah, Jeff, I would have held that info for a bit longer, and definitely not tell which lover was which when you revealed. The wolves would have been in a tougher spot that way.

Autumn 02-07-2011 09:33 PM

I'd like to note I voted a wolf day one.

Jackal, I think this was a great game, even just to watch. Nice work on all the roles.

Danny 02-07-2011 09:33 PM

I'm usually not the top poster the first couple days, but I was definitely a little quieter than usual post day 3. But with where the village was going I felt I just had to contribute enough to not draw any suspicion, but not so much to try and influence the decisions.

jeff061 02-07-2011 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAG (Post 2421400)
Hoops, it's funny you mentioned that earlier game with EF making a late role claim that seemed fishy. I was thinking about that same game as I read along and that was the only thing that gave me pause about him as wolf. Well played Danny. I was surprised Jeff gave out accurate info about which lover was which, that seemed to give the wolves a freebie.


Well it wasn't accurate, I lied and switched them. Figured I'd monitor the vote and only reveal if needed. But I thought of a potential duking after the fact and that scared me.

I named Darth and I because 4 were under the microscope with the thinking that 2 were wolves(they were). So I could pretty much name 2 wolves, but only if I cleared 2 people.

Danny 02-07-2011 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EagleFan (Post 2421403)
Oh, and Lathum beat me to the day one vote. I was going to vote Danny since he checked in as a wolf the previous day. Who knew it would have been the best thing to do on day one.


hah, I knew I was going to end up a wolf after posting that lol

Danny 02-07-2011 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff061 (Post 2421409)
Well it wasn't accurate, I lied and switched them. Figured I'd monitor the vote and only reveal if needed. But I thought of a potential duking after the fact and that scared me.

I named Darth and I because 4 were under the microscope with the thinking that 2 were wolves(they were). So I could pretty much name 2 wolves, but only if I cleared 2 people.


We had already scanned you and know DV was the one to kill.

jeff061 02-07-2011 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 2421415)
We had already scanned you and know DV was the one to kill.


Yeah, the second J23 mentioned that we should vote on Darth and not me I kind of figured :).

The Jackal 02-07-2011 09:38 PM

Thanks, Autumn. I would have liked to put some more flavor into my deadline posts but I was often out of time to do such. Oh well, next time!

EagleFan 02-07-2011 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAG (Post 2421400)
Hoops, it's funny you mentioned that earlier game with EF making a late role claim that seemed fishy. I was thinking about that same game as I read along and that was the only thing that gave me pause about him as wolf. Well played Danny. I was surprised Jeff gave out accurate info about which lover was which, that seemed to give the wolves a freebie.


I think that I was the seer that game if I remember correctly. I didn't want to some out so soon in he game about that so I tried to chose a role that (of all the roles on the list) I would have bet money on that it wasn't in the game.

I should have stayed with my first reaction to hoope (later in the day one day one) when I said that your vote on me was making me trust him more than others at that time. Bu then he would defend me and then an hour late vote for me (did that a couple times) so I thought that he was a wolf who didn't want my role left in the game. It just kept working out that they had other important targets to go after at that point and couldn't remove me from the pool of possible cunnings.

If it wasn't for the fact that there was absolutely no way that jeff was a wolf today I would have assumed that he was one with how hard he was coming after me.

jeff061 02-07-2011 09:42 PM

Yeah, there were just zero reason to look elsewhere.

EagleFan 02-07-2011 09:42 PM

Thanks for running the game Jackal. It was fun.


Oh, and...

Let's Go Flyers!!!

:)


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