Agree 100%, Warhammer. I don't watch much news these days, but when I do, I prefer Fox News simply because it's easier to watch. But I see them trying too hard a lot (Sean Hannity, most notably) to meet the needs of viewers. But CNN drove me away by doing the same shit when they were the monopoly. Now at least we have a choice where we want our bullshit spewed from. There is a lot of 'yellow journalism'* though, designed to make a buck at our expense.

*
Yellow journalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've never watched Fox News but I'm fascinated that there's a simple channel anybody can watch that can cause mass shootings. It reminds of how metal music was going to turn me into a satanist in the 80s. That's used to be the kind of thing we all made fun of. Bring back the Parent Television Counsel! Well, I guess they're still around, they're just not causing as much havoc as they used to.

Heh.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/20/politi...uth/index.html

Well, Columbine WAS Marilyn Manson's fault.

I think MSNBC got blamed for the cop execution in New York a couple months ago. Heck, even video games are getting blamed for violence again these days. Things do come back into style.

FWIW,

I detest the flag for two reasons...one I understand what it truly represents...and two...the American flag is the only flag we should be flying. A lot of people don't see it as a representation of slavery and I grew up around it and the people that like it and not all of them see it that way...but too many do, so I'm okay with its removal. Hell, I grew up in Mississippi and I would be fine with its removal. In a nutshell, the Confederates lost...get over it.

I don't get the Confederate flag thing. I struggle to find a historical equivalent without going way overboard but it's the flag of an entity that rebelled and took up arms against the country everyone claims to love. Standing for some pretty odious things that should never be romanticised comes in a significant second on the list. I just don't understand.

It depends where you are from. Its a culture that needs to change from the inside out though. If you are from New York or California, it will only piss people off if its dictated. Hell, even some one like me would get run. In the infamous words of Mississippi Burning, "You aint from around here no more" comes to mind. It is what it is...still, I think its better than it was 20 years ago...but things move.....real....slow in the South.

I do kinda wonder if that #AskRachael thing was enough to subconsciously push him over the edge. Probably not, but it really spiked the conversation on race leading up to the events

Absolutely.

And FWIW, I probably wouldn't have had a problem with the flag if it was confined to select places for historical value. But when people start attaching it to their vehicles...I know who they are and what they think. I like knowing what people think, but I know they aren't history buffs at that point.

As I explained elsewhere earlier today, there's more of honor & value in that time than in the world we inhabit today. Plain & simple.

I'd die for that flag. I'm getting close to the point where I can't say that about the current one.

Looks like you'll have a chance to put up or shut up, JiMGA

Movement Grows To Make June 27 'National Burn The Confederate Flag Day'

Eh, idiots been burning shit for years. Trying to stamp out idiots is a losing proposition in this country at this point. Governmental interference on the other hand, that's a different deal.

Ugh, well, its better than the FB challenge where liberals burn the American flag...I suppose. But Roof wouldn't want it any other way...burn that flag he would say...

While the rest of the country seems to want the focus to be on a fight over a flag that--last time I checked--a shockingly high number of black South Carolinians don't want removed, the Lowcountry just keeps on chuggin'. Posting this here because for some reason it is getting little/no play in the national media.

Organizers says 20,000 joined Bridge to Peace march on Ravenel B - WCIV-TV | ABC News 4 - Charleston News, Sports, Weather


The (white) police chief, the head of Black Lives Matter, and the families of 9 people murdered 4 days beforehand. Kudos, Charleston.

This is a gentleman I've met a couple times.
He has more credibility here than I would so Ill let him speak.

Black Confederate - YouTube

Which is nonsense, of course. It is laughable to say there was honor and value in a time where one group of humans owned and tortured another group of humans.

Not nearly as nonsensical as claiming there's much of value in the current direction the country has been taking.

There's such a thing as relativity y'know.

Yes, and you are relatively nuts.

I havent heard anyone, even Jon ( ;) ) condone slavery.
History is a funny thing. We only remember part of it. As a southerner I take a lot of pride in the spirit of my ancestors who fought and died for a cause they believed in. People on this board have stated that the South/CSA was a terrorist organization that took up arms against its government. When in fact the South was unjustly accosted by the Washington Bureaucrats . The Union attacked the CSA on Southern soil after the South seceeded by legal means. The war had little to do about slavery.

Period.

You probably already know this but, Lincoln introduced the slavery doctrine deep into the conflict for the express reason of influencing and preventing Renaissance era France from joining the war and siding with the Confederacy which they were in process of doing. He knew that by positioning it as a war against slavery he would prevent French involvement as otherwise France was on the way is support of Southern Cotton which they had become so dependent upon.

Don't believe this, then answer these two questions:
1) Why the Emancipation Proclamation ONLY free slaves currently held in Confederate states?
2) Why did at the time of his death Lincoln still "employ" 4 unpaid servants.

I despise slavery. I despise racism. I despise ignorance.

I really dont care if the flag stays or goes from the grounds. But if its to be removed I hope it is by a vote of the people of SC. If it is remove by force or coercion from outsiders I hope blood is spilled in the process.

Bullshit.

But you're right. The world we live in is fucked up when people are actually fighting to keep a symbol of oppression flying over a state capitol of the United States. For all the nonsense about 'honor and value' we know exactly why people honor and value that symbol. They are those that simply have to hate and we'll be better off when they move on from this world.

Well in short Lincoln only had the authority to free slaves held in Confederate states.

ETA: Actually I think it's more accurate to say that Lincoln had no legal authority to free slaves in the Union. But as a War Measure he could free slaves in the South that escaped to the North.

Yes, but you forgot in order to uphold a doctrine of enslaving other people - read the secession documents from the slave states, all of them talk about slavery.

The war was entirely about slavery. One side wanted to leave the union because they thought their slaves would be taken away from them. Full stop.

The flag of the Army of Northern Virginia honors traitors who wanted to own people. It is almost as bad as flying a Nazi swastika over Bavaria and equivalent to flying an Apartheid flag over Johannesburg.

I don't think the confederate flag causes mass shootings, but it is an convenient way to separate dirtbags from normal people. I remember at Syracuse in the mid-90s one Freshman (from Texas I think) proudly displayed the flag on his door. OK, good to know, we knew where to keep clear from, and that probably avoided some drunken brawls in the future. Because it wasn't just an indication of primitive racial and social views, it was also a pretty clear indicator of character generally - he wanted to be defiant, he wanted to upset people, he wanted confrontation. When you know that ahead of time and steer clear, I think things go smoother. There were maybe 4-5 black guys on the floor, so I'm sure it was good for them to know the score to and where to watch their step.

Also, it's kind of funny and pathetic. Its a flag of losers, and they proudly display it anyway. To commentate not only the civil war failure, but their societal failures as well. We've moved further and further away what they think is right. If they want to cling to their stupid little flag, I'm won't lose sleep over it, I'll just laugh at them.

The South also apparently shot first...

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/sumter.htm

Most soldiers in the Confederate Army did not own anyone and there were other reasons for joining.

I have an ancestor who only joined the Confederate Army because the Union burned his farm down and he needed to eat.

Most soldiers in the Wehrmacht never killed a Jewish person.

Yeah. Whatever one's personal feelings were, at some point they have to realize they were on the wrong side.

That all doesn't even matter, we're not judging individuals who had limited life choices in the civil war or WWII era, we're judging those WITH choices who choose to continue those legacies many decades later. I have way more sympathy for a decent German or American southerner being caught up in a force far bigger than themselves than I do a douchebag with a flag on his pickup truck.

Fair point.

And recall that most of these flags of the Army of Northern Virginia went up on statehouses across the South in the 1950s - to protest segregation, not for "our heritage".

The language was:
Not sure I understand the war measure part of your response.

No mention of escaping to the North.

Seriously I dont care about the flags placement. Take it down or leave it up. Means nothing to me. At one point in time I had an image in my gameroom, actually a museum piece, an actual flag flown during the war along with a number of recovered bullets/balls. I eventually took it down. Simply because so many people didn't understand what it meant or represented to me and I got tired of explaining it. In short I have overcame seemingly insurmountable odds my entire life. I always felt a little of my ancestors spirit drove that. None of that has anything to do with slavery.

Heck Ive been pretty open on this forum about my childhood. I grew up in foster care and boarding school. The people I lived with the longest that I most associate with "mom and dad" are black. I dont attend Church very much these days but when I do its at a "black baptist church". I'm pretty sure I'm not a racist. LOL....Heck even Jon can attest to this. When Clemson played UGA last year one of my dear friends rode down with me to Athens. He is black his wife is white. I was in their wedding. I actually messaged Jon ahead of time to gauge the waters and see how they would be received where we parked (in a lot that Jon's son's boyscout troop managed). So please do not boil this down to:
support flag = racist
oppose flag = not racist.

It hasnt flown over the capital in over a decade.
But keep on making blanket statements about people you dont know on a subject you clearly arent educated about.

While we are on the subject.
The confederate battle emblem is what flies on the SC Statehouse grounds not the Army of Northern Virgina Flag.

This is the army of N VA flag:

Are you going to really going to quibble about if flying next to the capital rather than over it?

Fair enough. Army of Northern Virginia Battle Flag (it was originally designed for the ANV by William Porcher Miles).

The emancipation proclamation was a moot point for southern slaves. Which Southerner was going to listen to Lincoln or the Federal government? If a slave escaped to the North then s/he was recognized as free. If they remained in the south they were still considered a slave by Southerners.

As for the War Measure part, Lincoln had no legal authority to free slaves in states that did not rebel. However as the Commander in Chief prosecuting a war, he had far more executive power over rebelling states, at least power recognized by the Federal government.

I wouldn't go quite that far, but I think if someone displays that flag, either they don't care that they're projecting racial hostility, they're actually trying to project racial hostility, or they're too ignorant to understand what they're projecting. None of which are good character traits, IMO. So I don't want to ban it or anything, but it's good to know who around me thinks a symbol of a defeated nation is so important to deify that it's worth antagonizing huge groups of people for.

The swastika has all kinds of meanings in various religions and cultures throughout history. Even if I sincerely embrace one of those previous uses of the symbol, I still don't get to wave it on my front lawn unless I'm totally OK with projecting hostility. If I did, I'm telling people, "I don't give a fuck if this upsets you, projecting my conquered culture is more important to me than that." Just not very neighborly.

It's also kind of like the whole discussion of the term "thug". There were a group of posters that were desperately protective of that term (and of using it incorrectly, to describe people that aren't even criminals). The need to use that word was bigger than their need not to project racial hostility.

Generally, I'd like to avoid projecting hate. There's maybe something that I'd find more important than that. It certainly would never be a physical symbol of any kind though. I hold the U.S. to a much higher regard than most of my peers, but I still wouldn't wave a huge American flag outside of my house, because I know the actual projection that I'd give off would be something more militaristic and conservative that I don't necessarily agree with. It's just a symbol, it's not worth sending projections I don't agree with. The way I life my life, and what I actually try to do for the country, is more important.

Of course, the south did its own emancipation proclamation during the war as well....for the same reason...manpower. Just they did it to late. They did in fact have black confederate units being trained at wars end...they never saw combat though. Weird! Bottom line, slavery was going to die no matter who won. Assuming they were good on their laws post war.

I mentioned it earlier, and this morning finally saw some numbers from 2014: as of last year, 61% of black people in SC supported the removal of that flag. (In a poll taken a good while back, that number was virtually the same.) As monolithic as black voters in SC are in terms of voting for the Democratic Party, that number is stunningly low. It's fairly obvious to anyone actually paying attention to the details that this is an issue that's far more complex than the simplistic broad brush with which it's being painted by outsiders.

While it think it is fair to say the common Northern narrative of the war is not totally accurate, it is then is also true that this Sourthern narrative is not fully accurate.

Every few years I have to dig this post up.

I haven't read the entire thread, but meant to mention this if it hasn't been mentioned: I read a day or two ago that his sister is the one who saw the picture and called the FBI to identify him.

Interesting dellima. I'm just spitballing here, but here's how I see it:

The question is what does it mean to exist or not. Whether it is noble to put up with outrageous materialism, comfort, stability and longevity, or to take up arms against those very things.

Are we really alive if all that we have is every-thing we've wanted? :popcorn:

Well, your preference is your preference. I'd rather see no one die.

And realistically, it wouldn't lead to a full "taking up arms." I suspect that it would help create more incidents like this one, though.


How d'ya do, guvnah? (Rumors are now that Haley's press conference today is to call for removal.)

http://www.fitsnews.com/2015/06/22/s...-address-flag/

I'd think that African-American allegiance to a culture that enslaved and segregated them is a symptom of the problem. (support of the latter, as ISiddiqui said earlier, is the reason the flag is still so prominent today). Hell, it's weird to me to see you so buddy-buddy with JIMGA here considering some of his expressed attitudes. But I also know I don't understand all the different factors at play.

Of course, the Sons of Confederacy will probably take the flag, buy some land next to the capital, call it a museum and put the flag up on a flag pole and have a plaque that reads, "This was the flag we took off the lawn, 40 feet over yonder."

Seriously though, the Confederates fly a HUGE flag at the I-4 and I-75 interchange in Tampa....at a "memorial"...so, I expect that to happen as soon as the flag is pulled down...the flag as a historic/cultural flag will be forever gone...and the racist version will be in full display. That's how it works...unfortunately.

Hmm, it's interesting to me to see slavery both dismissed as a reason for the Civil War and put forth as the only/primary reason for the Civil War.

Any Civil War historian will tell you that there were a large number of factors that led to the Civil War, slavery being one, but also cultural identity, industrial versus agrarian economics, and the beliefs of different individuals on the values of state rights versus the country's.

Also, if I recall right, the Supreme Court actually ruled on the legality of secession after the Civil War (secession did not win).

And the Emancipation was merely symbolic. It had no actual power.

I know this, and I am not even a Civil War buff. AENeumann, go get your brother in here!

I am just glad it was *a* reason. :)