The support at SIGames (rolleyes)
 

Rant on

The support at SI Games leaves something to be desired.

I've been having a problem with the copy protection with CM 03/04. Simply put, about 1/3rd of the time when booting, the disk just spins. Can't stop the process, either, nor eject the CD. It effectively freezes my CD ROM and many other programs, forcing a total reboot. Needless to say, this has been screwing with my PC pretty badly.

So 3 days ago, I posted in the technical support forum for some help over there. No response for two days, so I bumped the thread. Still no help. So after 3 days, I got a no-CD hack to get the damn thing working. A little pissed off that no one at SI bothered to assist, I posted the fact that I got a no-CD hack (interestingly enough, the one supplied by SI themselves). I won't say where I got it.

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As an aside, someone posted that they're illegal. Well, according to the DMCA, no-CD hacks are legal under the reverse engineering exception clause. "To achieve interoperabilitiy with other programs" is legal and his most definitely falls under that clause b/c it doesn't work right without it. Either way, I don't want to belabor this point, because it's minor in the scheme of things. Back to our regularly scheduled rant, already in progress...
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So finally a mod shows up. Instead of offering help, I get a two word post "they're not" and my account at SI is now banned. I'll admit posting that I found a no-cd crack was a smart-ass thing to do, but I wanted to let someone know that eventually customers will go find their own solutions if support isn't forthcoming. I never got any response at all about the LEGITIMATE service issue for a product that I paid for. Instead, I get a smart-ass two word reply 3 days later and a banned account. This is not good customer service.

THANKS, SI! Screw you too. I've always sung the praises of the CM series but this appeals to the "Evil Blackadar" side to just start warezing this series. If this is indicative of SI's support, it's a real shame.

register as the unghosted blackadar and let the expletives fly.

Note to self: If you ever have a problem with an SI Games game, do not post on their technical board. (Just Ping: Marc Vaughn here. :D )

Wow, that is retarded. You'd think they would try to at least take a look at the tech help board once a day...

What was "they're not" in reference to?

I didn't think the mods were actually employed by SI, but I may be wrong. Plus, given that their not an indi developer, but closer to a branch of EA (not huge, but a good size), I'm suprised there's normally as much help as there is.

For the most part, don't post there though, the mods have been asses for the past 2 years or so. It used to be a good place, but then people started posting more "Si Sucks" or "SI makes me cum," and all the good mods moved on. And as the product grew, the mods became more powerful and the developers don't spend as much time there as in the old days, so its only natural that the mods got power hungry.

I remember the day they took away post counts... it was a sad day.

Blackadar's remark about No-CD Cracks being legal.

I'm assuming to a post saying no-CD cracks are legal under the reverse engineering clause.

Anyway, what an asshatish thing for SI Games to do!

This is why I fear what ootp will become.

I really hope Marc comes by and sees this and responds.

Did you PM him? He's pretty good about this stuff in my experience.

No, GhostChubby. I don't really have the heart to tell him the support on his site sucks.

I think that's kind of moot after this thread :D

BTW you didn't use a no-cd crack, you used a patch that didn't have the "CD needed" protection, it was released like that at SI Games (well a few hours later they realised they had make a mistake and change it :) )

There is actually a link on a stickied thread over there that has it. I have it, too. :)

Blackadar,

Did you have your game patched with the latest version (4.1.5 I believe)? Did you have any roster updates? Did you have any additional graphics or titlebars installed? Any of theses things could have caused your problem.

Also, in the FAQ at SI, it talks about "If you have certain CD-burning software installed, such as Nero Burning Rom, or other system tools like Inseektors, Daemon Tools, or others, you may need to disable any processes the software installs, such as the NeroCheck utility installed with Nero."

Finally, did you try uninstalling and doing a clean install. Sometimes things get out of whack and just need to be reset.

ya- the support there is non-existent- I never post there for issues. I used to frequent that forum before this one or the OOTP forum = now, I wouldnt touch it with a 10 feet pole.

I know you're trying to help. Thank you. However...

1. The online FAQ said I needed 4.1.4, which I had. I didn't get .5 because it didn't address my problem. Good thing, too, b/c I got the .5 with the no-cd "mistake" in it.

2. No roster updated. Yes, additional graphics packs - the "superpack" that is very common. No, they wouldn't be related to this problem. This is strictly a copy-protection problem. The game hasn't even started yet.

3. I refuse, absolutely, to disable any legal software so someone else's shit will run. It is not their right to tell me what I can or cannot run (as long as what I'm running is legal). This is why I won't buy a game with StarForce on it. A company who has the audacity to try to dictate that is subject to having everything they ever put out stolen via warez sites as far as I'm concerned - i.e., they deserve to be put out of business. I'm not saying SI deserves to be put out of business, mind you. But the right for someone's copy protection to work ends when it interferes with other legal programs on my machine. It's my computer and my purchasing dollars.

However, I do not have Nero or Daemon Tools on my machine. Only SpyBot and Avast run in the background on my PC. So again, this wasn't the problem.

4. This was a very clean install - I just put it on my machine this week.

Have you tried disabling the other software? I realise you are a man of "principle", but every time I run CM, I always disable Norton Anti-Virus so as to free up resources for the game.

Yes, I am just trying to help. I understand you are upset about not getting your game to work (and not being "heard" on the SI forum).

Yea, I did have avast disabled and SpyBot as well when the problem happened before. Thanks for asking...but this is really related to the copy-protection used.

SI's site has gotten a little unwieldy since cm4 essentially. I'd guess their lack of responsiveness has to do with both a focus on EHM and trying to get FM ready for release, 03/04 is what, eight or nine months out from release and another five or so since its last patch? It makes sense that they're not poring over every tech support post especially if it appears to be an issue already addressed. As somebody else noted the mods aren't SI employees so much as "friends of the program," and they deal with a lot of total idiots over there so they are quick to pull the trigger sometimes. I think this is the right way to handle your situation as you're likely to get a look from MV or someone else this way, and hopefully they can correct the forum ban problem and maybe tell a mod or two to cool off. I'd use the no-cd hack happily and move on, which seems to be your plan.

Well, the problem with that is not every piece of software is built to run with other things. Some software written by big companies is written poorly, and eats mega resources, or just isn't compatible with a lot of things. Nero may be one of them.

At any rate, saying that because two pieces of software might not be compatible, the company who is telling you that should have their software pirated is nuts.

Um... isn't that exactly what you just said?

You have the right to not disable your software, and it's not good that you unknowingly bought a game that would cause this issue with your machine. Still, if you know that you're going to feel this way about copy protections on games, wouldn't it be better for you in the long run to research any game before you buy it? That way, if you don't like the idea of it, you can just not buy the game (as you say you've done with StarForce games).

In addition, with the way you keep bring up warez when discussing this, it appears that you're trying to justify "warezing" in certain situations. Even if you're not, it does look that way. Do you really want to go down that path around a bunch of software developers and honest consumers?

Wow, Blacky stirs up a storm here.

I think it came out a bit wrong, but he has a perfectly valid point (which has been discussed before here). Overbearing copy protection software that has been proven to fuck up other pieces of software on a computer and/or flat out disable the general operation of a computer is bad. Very bad. The only means to make sure this shit doesn't become mainstream is to vote with the wallet, or to develop a workaround to make a legal copy of the product behave like a nice happy program should.

Now, as for pirating said copy. It's not exactly what I would call *reasonable* to pirate a game in a situation like this, but it's not totally unreasonable. I sorta kinda liken it to civil disobedience. You are still doing wrong. You know damn well you are. You are making a conscious decision not to pay for a piece of software, due to the fact you are unhappy with the side-effects (bad copy protection) of it.

Is it right? No, not really. But if you're willing to acknowlege the fact that you are, indeed, pirating a copy of this because of some Bad Thing, then be my guest. Just be prepared to accept any consequences of doing so. I won't condemn someone for something like that, as long as they are doing it in the open, for justified reasons. (And no, not having the money ain't justified. Not wanting to spend it on a product that has draconian copy protection that actually breaks itself or other software is).

And is this made any damn sense whatsoever, I'll be amazed. Writing real opinions right after I get home from work was prolly not my best choice.

Sorry, Coffee Warlord, but there's only one thing that I don't quite get about what you said:

If you don't like the copy protection, then not only should you not buy the software, but how about also not using the software? Just because you want to play a game doesn't mean that you're entitled to playing it, no matter how intrusive the copy protection is.

Well, to be fair, I believe he paid for his copy of CM03/04. He has every right to a working product, and I think, given SI has his money, he is well within his rights to use whatever reasonable methods are at his disposal to get a working product, even resorting to piracy, and I would still say that's not wrong.

I wouldn't have gone to the game's fourm and posted I was using a no-CD hack. I think even Blackie will admit that was a pretty dumb thing to do, since most game forums aren't too udnerstanding about that, and we have already demonstrated that SIGames' fourm is run tightfisted by a bunch of nitwits (the mods, not SIGames). ;)

BTW, it's not just since CM4. I have been on those forums for two years now, when CM01/02 was still selling good, and the moderation was shitty back then, too.

CR

We had this discussion not too long ago. You can vote with your wallet by not buying the game, and spreading the word about WHY you didn't buy it (in the hopes you'll get to other people and prevent them from buying it). That's an eminently reasonable approach.

Stealing software is still stealing. Justifying it as "punishing" the company does not change that fact. If you get use out of it, pay them. Otherwise, don't use it, and don't pay them. It's a fairly simple choice. Go spend your money and time on some other game. I don't have recent stats, but not too long ago there were something like 6000 PC games released each year. It shouldn't be too hard to find something else you're willing to pay for and play. Or lots of freeware / shareware games to check out.

The really nasty lot are the ones that steal the game, and then expect tech support. They are actually taking money away from the company. Pretty much every justification a pirate makes to himself goes up in smoke when they do that.

Just to make sure my post is not misunderstood: I agree 100% with what's said here.

I should note that I agree that since Blackadar has paid for his game, he is entitled to a working copy, which explains why he went to the tech support forum in the first place. That's fine. I think the inference in my original message is fairly clear, though. Whether he was trying to or not, it did indeed appear that he was trying to justify piracy/stealing/warezing of software in certain situations.

Maple:

No, it's not. I think SI's reasoning is more of an "oops, we discovered this issue" rather than something deliberate. If I believed it was deliberate, then my response would be quite different. That's why I made my specific statement AND bolded it - so there wouldn't be any confusion about my intent. I really enjoy SI's games and in no way want to see their products harmed or stolen.


Pumpy:

I'm kind of a Nazi on the issue of copy protection. I've dealt with it for about 20 years now - codewheels, black/red printed sheets (so they couldn't be photocopied), "look the word up in the manual", cd checker software, etc. I've lived with it all and I don't think anyone can accuse me of software piracy, at least in the last 15 or so years.

But the line gets crossed when protection deliberately disables or impedes functions or other software on my machine. That's not permissable - it's hacking, pure and simple. And unfortunately, that's what some of the newer copy protection schemes are trying to do. And some of the others where it may have not been programmed in deliberately, it's an unintended side effect that becomes a "feature".

In addition, these "features" never are disclosed to the consumer until it's too late - until they paid for the program and can't return it. So now we have hacking AND theft in my book. And for some, one good turn deserves another.

Again, this isn't pointed at SI. This is an industry thing. Eventually, some of these publishers need to realize that they're screwing the honest guy over with some of these copy-protection schemes and find another method. The disabling of other legitimate PC software, purposely impeding hardware components, installing software that can act as spyware and the like is just unnecessary and bad business.

But we should probably save that for a different discussion because it's pretty far off topic to this original one.

Thanks for the level-headed reply, Blackie. I honestly feared that my messages may have come off as an attack, and I certainly would not have meant them that way.

The reason I say this is because when piracy is even mentioned sometimes, it just leads to a seemingly endless flamewar, and I don't like getting into those, so I was hoping that I wasn't inciting one.

I appreciate the response. Thanks.

It should be a crime for software vendors to sell software that does that, and furthermore, they should lose all rights to sue for copyright infringement of any software that does that.

Using a no CD crack to get software you paid for to run is not stealing. Its not even close. He paid for the software, then he uses the software. I don't even see a problem.

FWIW (which I suspect ain't much), me & ol' Blackie don't agree on a whole bunch of stuff. But when it comes to the CM forums ... mutual "blechs" are not what I'd call a good sign.

Virtually all of my gaming for the past couple of weeks has been spent on CM 03/04, so I'm not talking about the game. But I'd sooner have a tooth pulled than deal with the forums or many of the posters at the forums. Judging from what I've seen, it doesn't surprise me in the least if the mods leave a lot to be desired either.

I won't suggest sticking poor Marc with the thankless job of forum modding, but if anybody at SI could find a way to clone him ... well, let's just say I think it'd be a good foot forward for them, at least with regard to dealing with their current/future U.S. customers.

Word.

I guess Marc should see this thread. We're all pretty big fans of the CM series, but it's also very apparent that we think the mods at the website should be summarily shot.

I'd be willing to move to England if they would hire me. :)

The great thing about software is that you can work from almost anywhere. The heck with moving to England (I'd starve to death)...just mod the boards from where you want to live!

But I want to live in England (little dream that will never happen).

The thing that bugs is not just the moderation (its just ridiculously tight and specific which while I dont agree with, I can undersand), but that ther seems to be very little in the way of reasonable discourse here- it sounds like your average mlb.com sports board "dooz jeter sukz" "No he rulez how many ringz does Nomah have ?" in so many ways- one of the parts I used to like, way back when on the board (and perhaps is worth visiting now ) is the "Your shout" section- it seemed to be more reasoned. That being said, god forbid an idea there got ended up being new instead of discussing the old one- it was then classified as off-topic (they're pretty anal about that). From what I recall, the moderator there criticized SI a fair amount and was fairly reasoned, as long as debate was reasonable- I cant remember his name. Hell, this was way back before Smiley Dan was a moderator- its pretty far back.

Ummm...I think you're wrong here. There's this thing called a LICENSE AGREEMENT. I'm sure you've seen them. They generally outline what the vendor is responsible for and not responsible for. I don't have CM 03/04, but I am guessing that there is a statement in there to the effect that SI isn't liable for the affects it's software has on your machine or other software on your machine.

By running the software, you agree to the License Agreement, and therefore accept that condition. So, by running the software, you are most likely agreeing that you won't hold SI liable if it affects your machine adversely, up to certain limits (usually the price of the software).

I'd be curious to see what SI's license agreement stipulates. Perhaps you could post it so that I could see if my supposition is correct.

Buzzbee, I think you're trying to be legal/technical and that may be the license agreement...

However, I can only agree after I've purchased the program, which cannot be returned. So regardless of whether I agree or not, I'm "stuck" with my purchase. There is some legal position that because of those circumstances, some or all parts of the license agreement may not hold up in a court of law. Besides, what I'm talking about is not the unintentional messing up of a machine, I'm talking about software coded specifically to disable other functions. I don't think any license agreement would hold up in a US court under those circumstances.

But that's really just all bullcrap. I could care less what any license agreement says. If someone's software tries to purposely disable other functions or software...well, hit me and I hit back.

Again, this is not the point of this thread to debate copy-protection scheme legality. So I'm not going to post SI's license agreement b/c it's not pertinent to this discussion.

The real issue is the lack of customer support on the SI boards. :)

Hi,
What was your user name on our forums.. (its possible been mentioned above.. but theres a lot to read ;) )

Fran

The same one as the one here.

I'll swap with you ...

Never mind I found it :)

Hi,
It should be sorted now. I've pm'd you :)

We'll sort this out, you'll be magically unbanned shortly - apologies for any problems.

With regards to how much dev's (including myself) are posting at the moment - we're fairly busy with getting both FM and the American version of NHL EHM ready for release ... this lowers our interactivity on the forums but is a neccassary evil if our games are to be as good as they can.

Its something which traditionally happens around release time I'm afraid (most of you have probably noticed by posting here has curtailed a fair bit recently for just this reason) and while not ideal is something which is always going to happen around releases I'm afraid.

Hope this helps,

Marc

I used to spend a lot of time on the SI boards, but about 3 years ago they took a turn for the worse. Not sure exactly why (I have a feeling it may have something to do with the average age of posters there) but I found that basically there were 4 types of posters left:

1.) Mods who could definitely be a little 'overzealous' at times.
2.) Posters whose sole goals in posting would be to suck up to various mods.
3.) People who only could rip CM with nothing constructive.
4.) People who couldn't stand any criticism of the game without ripping into critical posters.

Marc:

Thanks for the response. I'll keep my response to Francis confidential but it's apparent from this thread that perhaps selecting different mods or different training for the existing mods is in order at the SI boards.