Front Office Football Central

Front Office Football Central (https://forums.operationsports.com/fofc//index.php)
-   FOFC Archive (https://forums.operationsports.com/fofc//forumdisplay.php?f=27)
-   -   Some things I don't understand about the NFL (https://forums.operationsports.com/fofc//showthread.php?t=45041)

Rizon 12-05-2005 09:19 PM
Some things I don't understand about the NFL
 
1)
At what point is the clock supposed to stop ticking for a field goal? I see the kick go through the uprights, hit the net, and fall down, and the clock is still going. It seems like an extra 3-4 seconds tick off after the ball goes through.

2)
What is the difference between motion and shifting? You get penalized if two guys go in motion, but 150 guys can shift all at once without a penalty. Can't they just say the 2 guys in motion are just shifting? Or does shifting mean someone set on the line moves and resets?

3)
False starts. I see guys sneeze and get called for it, but when the QB is making audibles the line practically stands up and walks over to him and they dance a bit and there is no penalty (I'm exaggerating). Is a false start when the lineman moves his feet or set hand?

4)
The line of scrimmage. You have to have 7 guys on the line, but often times lines are in the shape of a "V" and not a straight line. So much of a "V" that the tackles are a full body length behind the center. On punts it's even worse, it seems like there is no line, just a big U. What's the deal with this?

Logan 12-05-2005 09:37 PM
My thoughts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizon
1)
At what point is the clock supposed to stop ticking for a field goal? I see the kick go through the uprights, hit the net, and fall down, and the clock is still going. It seems like an extra 3-4 seconds tick off after the ball goes through.

No clue on the actual reasoning. I'd say user error. I believe there was a maximum amount of time that may come off the clock on a FG attempt established recently.

2)
What is the difference between motion and shifting? You get penalized if two guys go in motion, but 150 guys can shift all at once without a penalty. Can't they just say the 2 guys in motion are just shifting? Or does shifting mean someone set on the line moves and resets?

Two players cannot be in motion at the same time, i.e. a WR and a TE running across the line as the play begins. I believe your reasoning on resetting is correct. They reset before the play actually starts.

3)
False starts. I see guys sneeze and get called for it, but when the QB is making audibles the line practically stands up and walks over to him and they dance a bit and there is no penalty (I'm exaggerating). Is a false start when the lineman moves his feet or set hand?

Again, I think this is about getting "set." I don't think this is really discernable unless you are on the field.

4)
The line of scrimmage. You have to have 7 guys on the line, but often times lines are in the shape of a "V" and not a straight line. So much of a "V" that the tackles are a full body length behind the center. On punts it's even worse, it seems like there is no line, just a big U. What's the deal with this?

Not a damn clue. But hey, everyone does it! :)


Maple Leafs 12-05-2005 09:38 PM
I believe a FG takes five seconds. This is a relatively new NFL rule.

Draft Dodger 12-05-2005 09:56 PM
tackles can now be back from the center. it's a relatively new rule (within the last 5 years?).

AgustusM 12-05-2005 11:03 PM
plays can shift to their hearts delight before the line "sets" that is, puts its hand down.

also all players, except for one (the motion guy) must be "set" for a full second before the snap.

the false start thing is really about "intent" - since the lineman who are listening for the audible are not trying to get a head start - no call. coaches always tell RB's who jump to simply "act" like they are going in motion, but they never do.

miked 12-05-2005 11:47 PM
I also wondered this as (at least in Colts game) whenever the QB audibles, the center sometimes turns his entire body in several directions. Additionally, I've also seen the center move the ball a little before he snaps it.

I also wonder why sometimes guys get tackled out of bounds, or knocked back out of bounds and the clock still moves. The ref comes running over and makes the motion for the clock to keep running, even though the guy is clearly out of bounds.

McSweeny 12-05-2005 11:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by miked
I also wonder why sometimes guys get tackled out of bounds, or knocked back out of bounds and the clock still moves. The ref comes running over and makes the motion for the clock to keep running, even though the guy is clearly out of bounds.
usually when that happens the ref is indicating that the player's forward momentum was stopped before he went out of bounds

sabotai 12-05-2005 11:56 PM
Some answers for your consideration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizon
2)
What is the difference between motion and shifting? You get penalized if two guys go in motion, but 150 guys can shift all at once without a penalty. Can't they just say the 2 guys in motion are just shifting? Or does shifting mean someone set on the line moves and resets?

Shifting is when the offense sets up in one formation, and before the line gets set, they "shift" into a new formation. Once they are set, though, they can't move. Motion is when a WR, TE, FB or RB moves parallel(sp?) to the line of scrimmage (apparently, the parallel rule applies for outside of the tackels as we see players motion into and out of the FB or RB position). But once they are moving, they can't move forward or backward from the line.

3)
False starts. I see guys sneeze and get called for it, but when the QB is making audibles the line practically stands up and walks over to him and they dance a bit and there is no penalty (I'm exaggerating). Is a false start when the lineman moves his feet or set hand?

When the QB is calling an audible, his hands are lo long under center (or positioned to catch a shotgun snap). I'm not 100% sure, but I think when the QB does not have his hands under center, the offense is no longer considered "set". Once the QB gets his hands back under center, however, he does have to wait 1 full second before snapping the ball (and thus be set).

4)
The line of scrimmage. You have to have 7 guys on the line, but often times lines are in the shape of a "V" and not a straight line. So much of a "V" that the tackles are a full body length behind the center. On punts it's even worse, it seems like there is no line, just a big U. What's the deal with this?

7 men, no more, no less, have to be on the line of scrimmage before the ball is snapped. I beleive they are given 1 yard grace distance. IOW, a tackle can line up 0.8 yards off the line of scrimmage and have it be legal. Once he lines up over a yard off the line, it's an illegal formation (and yes, I do notice they get away with it from time to time)

lighthousekeeper 12-05-2005 11:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by miked
I also wonder why sometimes guys get tackled out of bounds, or knocked back out of bounds and the clock still moves. The ref comes running over and makes the motion for the clock to keep running, even though the guy is clearly out of bounds.

Thank you! This one has bugged me for the longest time. I just don't get it.

ausonny 12-06-2005 12:17 AM
I believe if his forward progress was in bounds, in other words he runs or is knocked backwards out of bounds, they will keep the clock running.

sabotai 12-06-2005 12:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ausonny
I believe if his forward progress was in bounds, in other words he runs or is knocked backwards out of bounds, they will keep the clock running.

Exactly.

Daimyo 12-06-2005 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sabotai
When the QB is calling an audible, his hands are lo long under center (or positioned to catch a shotgun snap). I'm not 100% sure, but I think when the QB does not have his hands under center, the offense is no longer considered "set". Once the QB gets his hands back under center, however, he does have to wait 1 full second before snapping the ball (and thus be set).

Just to expound on this a little with a play that takes this rule pretty far to the extreme, the Colts have a run play where Manning walks toward the weak side receiver faking an audible and the ball is snapped firectly to the RB. They've used it a couple times last season with success, but once (I think in the playoffs vs NE?) they flagged Manning for illegal motion. Dungy asked for clarification from the league after that game and I believe the ruling was that the play is only legal if Manning doesn't put his hands under center before doing the fake audible. Once he puts his hands under center the ball can not be snapped unless he's stationary, but otherwise he's free to move up and down the line, wave his arms, whatever. They've already ran it at least once this year without penalty and I expect they'll use it in the playoffs if conditions are ever right for it.

Daimyo 12-06-2005 11:06 AM
DOLA, as for line shifting, I believe linemen are allowed to move up until the point that they're are in their three point stance and with their hand touching the ground. Once that happens I believe any movement is considered a false start. As others have mentioned they need to be in the stance at least one second before the ball is snapped.

rkmsuf 12-06-2005 11:07 AM
I really can't stand some of the false start penalties. I mean the guy farts and moves a butt check and it's a flag. It gets ridiculous at times when they take a rule like that to an extreme.

BrianD 12-06-2005 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ausonny
I believe if his forward progress was in bounds, in other words he runs or is knocked backwards out of bounds, they will keep the clock running.

This is exactly right. Along these lines, I have always wondered why ball carriers never throw the ball out of bounds when the know they can't get to the sidelines. As long as they throw the ball backwards, the can't get called for an illegal forward pass. They don't have to worry about their forward progress stopped because the defender wouldn't have a shot to hit him. There is always the possibility that the ball carrier doesn't have time to make a clean toss before the hit, but there are cases where it seems the only way to get out of bounds is to throw the ball.

Pumpy Tudors 12-06-2005 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianD
This is exactly right. Along these lines, I have always wondered why ball carriers never throw the ball out of bounds when the know they can't get to the sidelines. As long as they throw the ball backwards, the can't get called for an illegal forward pass. They don't have to worry about their forward progress stopped because the defender wouldn't have a shot to hit him. There is always the possibility that the ball carrier doesn't have time to make a clean toss before the hit, but there are cases where it seems the only way to get out of bounds is to throw the ball.

Inside of two minutes, this is a ten-second runoff, I'm fairly certain.

rkmsuf 12-06-2005 11:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianD
This is exactly right. Along these lines, I have always wondered why ball carriers never throw the ball out of bounds when the know they can't get to the sidelines. As long as they throw the ball backwards, the can't get called for an illegal forward pass. They don't have to worry about their forward progress stopped because the defender wouldn't have a shot to hit him. There is always the possibility that the ball carrier doesn't have time to make a clean toss before the hit, but there are cases where it seems the only way to get out of bounds is to throw the ball.


half the guys have no idea they are supposed to get out of bounds in the first place

BrianD 12-06-2005 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkmsuf
half the guys have no idea they are supposed to get out of bounds in the first place

Touche. :)

BrianD 12-06-2005 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors
Inside of two minutes, this is a ten-second runoff, I'm fairly certain.

Interesting, I didn't know that. Out of curiosity, does anyone know if the full official NFL rulebook is available online anywhere?

Pumpy Tudors 12-06-2005 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianD
Out of curiosity, does anyone know if the full official NFL rulebook is available online anywhere?

I don't believe so. Eleven years ago, I had dreams of designing a pro football simulation game that would include NFL rules, NCAA rules, CFL rules, and World League rules. The CFL rules were available online (thanks to Gopher -- I said it was years ago). I figured that I'd wait on the WLAF. That left the NFL and the NCAA. I called both leagues and asked them for their rulebooks. The NFL sent me theirs for free. The NCAA asked for money. Go figure.

Anyway, like I said, that was eleven years ago. The NFL may still give you a copy of the rulebook if you ask them for it, but I wouldn't be surprised if that has changed.

Rizon 12-06-2005 07:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianD
Interesting, I didn't know that. Out of curiosity, does anyone know if the full official NFL rulebook is available online anywhere?

Nope, it's a publication that's sold. :(

Maple Leafs 12-06-2005 08:35 PM
On the subject of things we don't understand: can someone explain to me how out-of-bounds works at the goal line? At least once a year I hear a commentator explain that "the goal line extends all the way around the world", but I also see guys stretch out to score on their way out and be ruled out of bounds.

When is a player out of bounds? Does he have to touch the ground, or can he be out while still in the air? Does it matter where the ball is? And if so, who cares how far the goal line stretches if the ball has to be in bounds?

WrongWay 12-06-2005 08:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daimyo
DOLA, as for line shifting, I believe linemen are allowed to move up until the point that they're are in their three point stance and with their hand touching the ground. Once that happens I believe any movement is considered a false start. As others have mentioned they need to be in the stance at least one second before the ball is snapped.
What happends when your Lineman get in that V-Formation where your Tackels never get into a 3 point stance?

Only in the NFL is the center allowed to pickup the ball and move it around before he gets set.

For your goal line question it is all about where the ball is. Once the ball crosses the goal line the play is over. Your entire body could be in the air and out of bounds as long as you get that ball to cross the goalline. This is why you see players who are getting pushed out of bounds reaching for the pylon in the endzone to try and get the ball in the endzone before they go out of bounds.

Maple Leafs 12-06-2005 08:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WrongWay
For your goal line question it is all about where the ball is. Once the ball crosses the goal line the play is over. Your entire body could be in the air and out of bounds as long as you get that ball to cross the goalline. This is why you see players who are getting pushed out of bounds reaching for the pylon in the endzone to try and get the ball in the endzone before they go out of bounds.
But that's the part I don't get. What's with "the goal line extends all the way across the world" when the players always seem to want to hit the pylon? Why can't a player dive and land four feet out of bounds but an inch past the goal line?

WrongWay 12-06-2005 09:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maple Leafs
But that's the part I don't get. What's with "the goal line extends all the way across the world" when the players always seem to want to hit the pylon? Why can't a player dive and land four feet out of bounds but an inch past the goal line?
I am clueless about your "across the world" saying as I always thought that was the reason that there are 4 pylons set around the endzone to establish it's boundaries.

It is also weird beacuse I have seen just the opposite, where the player was in the endzone, but the ball was not because it was out of bounds according to the Pylons.

Maple Leafs 12-06-2005 09:51 PM
Here's the best reference I could find:
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune....eref-headlines

Quote:
Yes, the goal line extended does go "all the way around the world" in all organized football leagues: grade school, high school, college and professional. If the runner touches the pylon with his body, or dives over it, the ball may be over the side line and a touchdown will be awarded because the goal line extends beyond the side line.

As best I can tell, the ball or the body must be in bounds -- either one (or both) is enough.

ThunderingHERD 12-06-2005 10:14 PM
The goal line does indeed go "all the way around the world"

Quote:
I've grown tired of announcers saying that players need to dive into the end zone within the pylons, as well as players unnecessarily positioning the ball inside the pylon as they dive for the end zone. As I understand it, because the goal line stretches indefinitely outside the field of play, the pylon is essentially meaningless for judging a touchdown. Can you clarify this rule for me? And if the pylons serve no purpose, why are they there? -- Dan K., Boston

You are correct. The goal line stretches around the world outside at the field of play. The pylon's purpose is to signify that the ball or player is out-of-bounds in the end zone. If a player going in for a score hits the pylon with the ball extended over the plane of the goal line, he is out-of-bounds in the end zone, and a touchdown is awarded. But if a player is coming out of his own end zone and he hits the pylon with the ball in his possession, he is out-of-bounds in his end zone and a safety is awarded to the defensive team. So in that sense, the pylons are very important.

ThunderingHERD 12-06-2005 10:15 PM
In other words: the pylon being hit signifies a touchdown (or safety), the pylon not being hit doesn't mean much.

Mr. Wednesday 12-06-2005 10:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors
I don't believe so. Eleven years ago, I had dreams of designing a pro football simulation game that would include NFL rules, NCAA rules, CFL rules, and World League rules. The CFL rules were available online (thanks to Gopher -- I said it was years ago). I figured that I'd wait on the WLAF. That left the NFL and the NCAA. I called both leagues and asked them for their rulebooks. The NFL sent me theirs for free. The NCAA asked for money. Go figure.
The NCAA has all of their playing rules online in PDF form, and has done so for several years. I've read through parts of the ice hockey and volleyball rules, the former because of interest in technical points and the latter because I wanted to figure out what the heck I was watching (in the technical bits, not the primary parts of play). Football is definitely there, I just checked.

Link: http://www2.ncaa.org/media_and_event...playing_rules/

Pumpy Tudors 12-06-2005 11:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday
The NCAA has all of their playing rules online in PDF form, and has done so for several years. I've read through parts of the ice hockey and volleyball rules, the former because of interest in technical points and the latter because I wanted to figure out what the heck I was watching (in the technical bits, not the primary parts of play). Football is definitely there, I just checked.

Link: http://www2.ncaa.org/media_and_event...playing_rules/

Well, it's good to see that they've changed things since early 1995.

ThunderingHERD 12-06-2005 11:36 PM
Thanks for that link to the NCAA rule book. Remember the question about taking the too many men on the field penalty over and over again? It was asked with regards to the NFL, but it appears the NCAA has quite a specific penalty that would cover such a situation:

Quote:
Originally Posted by page 116

Unfair Acts

...

b. If a team repeatedly commits fouls that can be penalized only by halving the distance to its goal line.

...

PENALTY--The referee may take any action he considers equitable, including assessing a penalty, awarding a score, or suspending or forfeiting the game.

I'd imagine the NFL has something similar in their rule book.

ThunderingHERD 12-06-2005 11:43 PM
Aha! I finally found what I was looking for. Remember the Leinart sneak in the Notre Dame game? The one where Reggie Bush pushed him in? I remember seeing ABC on Saturday pick it as the #1 Bush play of the season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Page 117
Interfering or Helping the Runner or Passer

...

b. The runner shall not grasp a teammate; and no other player of his team shall grasp, push, lift, or charge into him to assist him in forward progress.

I knew it was technically illegal in the NFL, but as much as I'd seen it replayed I hadn't heard any mention of it being illegal in the NCAA.

Mr. Wednesday 12-06-2005 11:58 PM
The Gameday Final crew was going on about it that night, I'm surprised you missed it.

ThunderingHERD 12-07-2005 12:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday
The Gameday Final crew was going on about it that night, I'm surprised you missed it.

No, I didn't catch anything about it at the time. I figured that surely it had to have been brought up, as obvious as it was, but I didn't hear anything about it on the broadcast. It just brought it back to my mind this weekend when they were counting down Bush's top plays of the season during the USC/UCLA game. Of all plays, they picked that one as his best of the year.

Pumpy Tudors 12-07-2005 12:02 AM
I watched last week's "6 Days to Sunday" on NFL Network, and referee Ed Hochuli was the subject. Each week, every NFL referee has to take a written exam about some of the rules. One of the true/false questions on Hochuli's test involved a player assisting a runner. He said that it's true that it should be a penalty, but he has never seen it called. Hochuli's been around for quite a while, so I would guess that it's just one of those calls that's never going to get made, in the NFL or in college.

Ohbytheway, as an aside, "6 Days to Sunday" is becoming one of my favorite shows.

Mr. Wednesday 12-07-2005 12:06 AM
I think I have seen it called once in the NFL, a long while back. But, and I said this at the time, I just don't think Bush on Leinart rose to the level that would justify making an exceptional call. I do see runners get assisted frequently enough that it's obvious technical violations of the rule don't generally get called.

Pumpy Tudors 12-07-2005 12:07 AM
You know, as much as I've heard about this Bush/Leinart play, I haven't actually seen it. I think I'm the only college football fan who hasn't seen it yet. :)

Mr. Wednesday 12-07-2005 12:12 AM
Did you want a description, or have you already heard/read about it?

Pumpy Tudors 12-07-2005 12:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday
Did you want a description, or have you already heard/read about it?

I've heard about it several times. I just haven't seen it. I was just saying, really.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:06 PM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.