Who is the best hockey player ever?
 

Let the masses decide.

I can't imagine this being very close...

I would tend to agree, but I've heard passionate arguments for Lemieux in the past. We shall see, BeeHopper.

Nikolai Khabibulin

And I've heard passionate arguments for Bobby Orr and Gordie Howe. We shall indeed see, WSUCougarHopper.

For the record, I prefer SkyBee. ;)

Bobby Orr was the best ever.

Another country heard from!

What about Klima?:D

I'd say Bobby Orr was the best ever.

He's like the Gail Sayers in the Running Back debate.

If he didn't retire at 32, no one would ever touch the records he set for defensemen.

A strong case could be made. Amazing offensive talent. Crazy antics. Wonderfully bushy mullet. Cool helmet. All the elements are there and then some!

Not to slight Howe or Lemieux, but if you put the two of them next to Gretzky in a lineup and then ask somebody who has no idea about hockey who the best hockey player of the three of them is...I assure you Gretz doesn't get a single look. Guys like Howe and Lemieux should dominate any physical sport they play because they have been born with all the physical tools to facilitate that.

Gretzky, on the other hand, used what he had and DOMINATED the game in every way despite not being the biggest, or strongest, or fastest guy on the ice.

Now, Bobby Orr, I could listen to an argument about him being one of the greatest as he really revolutionized how defensemen play the game.

What is this hockey you speak of?

This poll is silly... Howe and Orr should be on the list as well as Sawchuck.

Though Gretz kills them all.

Reggie Dunlop

this poll is indeed silly... if you even have to ask you just don't get it. No one will ever touch what one of these guys did... never. Up until a few days ago I put Wilt's 100 close to 99's point total. Not now... no one will ever get even that close.

Any discussion of the best ever must include both Howe and Orr. I would also include Maurice Richard. With that said, i say Gretzky is the best ever, followed by Orr, Howe, Lemiuex and Richard.

I have always thought this debate is much closer than most people think it is. I think the biggest thing that hurt Lemieux is all the time he missed because of injury/cancer. In pure numbers no one stacks up with Gretzky. However his prime was in an ERA that produced FAR more offense on the whole than Lemieux's prime. Granted they overlap, but Gretzkys 90 goal, 150 assist seasons came in the offensive period and on some absolutely ridculously talented Oilers teams.

Super Mario doesn't have the total numbers that Gretzky does, but when Gretzky finished he finished with an average of 1.9 points per game for his career. Mario is at 1.88 points per game going into this season. Now certainly Gretzky played a little too long and brought his average down some, but at the same time he again played in a more offenive ERA in his prime.

In the end of Lemieux doesn't miss so much time I think the argument between the two is very close. Lemieux would have been much closer in terms of total production and he was still getting better in 89 when he had his 199 point season. With all that being said I think Gretzky is the better player, but as I said I think the debate should be much closer than it is.

Maurice Richard

(I am biased)

Wait. Is this someone posting in a clearly identified hockey thread about how they hate hockey or think hockey is an irrelevant sport that no one cares or knows about? Is that what this is?

Quite hillarious, not to mention terribly original.

Eddie Shore

Old time hockey

At least I was subtle with my cool name and slapshot references.

I would be ok with Rocket being included in a discussion of who the best goal scorer ever was. Although I still wouldn't say he is even that, but as far as overall hockey player he just doesn't stack up.

I think Jean Beliveau is in the discussion somewhere, but further down (though ahead of, say, Messier).


Perhaps, but that's a part of the game. You could say that Terrell Davis would have been better than Jim Brown or Walter Payton if he didn't run into injury problems, but you'll never know. For the few years he was healthy, he was just as good. I realize Lemieux played far more years, but the concept is the same.

As for the 'offensive era' argument against Gretzky. You can easily argue that the Oilers team was responsible for the booming offensive of the 80s. In the late 70s with the Flyers and early 80s with the Islanders, you didn't have a very offensive era. The Oilers just scored like crazy and other teams had to open it up to even compete with them.

Um, Howe. Hands down.

I understand what you are getting at... just wanted to mention that if you are comparing points for a game for both you cannot take Gretzky's latter years into account. I can only assume that Lemieux would have declined some in his last years. I am also not a fan of what-ifs. Lets compare actual known quantities. Also, it's hard if not impossible to estimate what Lemieux would have done with better talent around him. he didn't have it so that doesn't enter into my equation.

I agree that the chasm is not as wide as most think, but the chasm is still there.

Slapshot references are funny. You're ok here, smurf. You're ooookay. ;)

It's cool to be loved by the hockeykrishnas.

Not even close.

Maybe... maybe you could argue that if Lemeiux had stayed healthy he could have matched Gretzky. But he didn't.

You have to have Ore and Howe on the list.

I'd have him equal with Orr for 3rd. They both dominated their era's, but were injured too much. Where Mario shines is in the department of what he gave back to the game.

As a player, he is 98% of Wayne.

To answer the first part of your question I wasn't using Lemieux's injuries as an excuse. I was just stating a fact that it is what has hurt him the most in this debate. So I am not arguing that we should excuse it. I was just pointing out that in many people's minds there is no comparison between the two and I think that is the biggest reason why.

And for the offensive ERA I didn't have time to run through the numbers as thoroughly as I wanted to, but from 80 to 87 wehn Gretzky left the OIlers the league averaged 3.8 goals per game after you took out the Oilers production. I then started to run Lemeiuxs numbers. Between 86 and 85 which is as far as I got the league averaged 3.6 goals per game. And that was not even taking the Penguins out of the equation and they were geenrally mognth tops in the league in goals in the early 90s. Assuming I removed them it would likely be in the 3.5 range and would continue to fall after 95. So I think it is pretty clear to say Gretzky's prime was in a more offensive era even without the player's own teams in the mix.

hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockey

He has declined some in his last years. And that was taken into account in his numbers as well. If you were going to chop off some years on Gretzky then wouldn;t you need to estimate the prime years Lemieux missed? It's not fair in the averages to only take Gretzky's best years and not give Lemeiuex at least some credit for what he would have done if not missing so much time.

In the end I think it is best tp just say for the total number of games they played each player averaged X number of points. And again when Gretzky was averaging 2.5 points per game he was doing it in a more offensive period and on an insanely loaded team.

Sure it is impossible to say for certain how either player would have done if the roles had been reversed, but you have to make assuptions when you are having these debates. It is not fair to either player to not try and balance the situations out.

The only reason somebody would give an answer other than "Gretzky" is to show off their hockey knowledge. Gretzky is like Babe Ruth - everybody likes to argue that somebody else was better than him, but there's no agreement on who the main contender is.

a more interesting poll would be "Who's the best 'Goon' of all time?". Which, of course, the answer would be Bob Probert;)

Is this a joke? Whoe other than Gretzky could you even think about as the greatest?

Mario Lemieux

Lemieux may be great, but he is not even close to the greatest.

Phil Kessel

(I'm biased and an idiot)

comedy randy mckay response

Kurt Rambis

Oh wait, wrong sport.

At least you are offering some supporting evidence.

This is the problem in these types of debates. In general the people who argue that Gretzky, Ruth and Jordan were the greatest of their respective sports never really give much of an argument. Those three are just generally considered the greatest and so the rest on that.

I have made what I think is a pretty solid argument to why Lemieux is in fact very close to Gretzky (although I too believe Gretzky still has the edge). What flaw do you see in my argument other than you just think Gretzky is the greatest?

In the end, Lemieux averaged 1.88 points per game. What's more astonishing is the fact he only averaged 53.8 games per season and missed several more all together.

I can't believe Steve Trout isn't totally dominating this poll.

by stats, Gretzky of course, but I would have loved to see Lemieux play as many games as Gretzky did...

I they were both standing there, top shape, same age, etc.. I would draft Lemieux over Gretzky though.

Orr was +92 one season......that's f'n sick.

Yeah, but the definitive statistic tells all. Wayne Gretzky won 5 Lady Byng trophies to Bobby Orr's 0.

:D

the only problem i have with bobby orr being in this conversation is that paul coffey, statistically, is so far above anything orr ever did as.

And he was +124 in another IIRC, which is even sicker.