Poker question from a newbie.
 

So, I think I'm a stupid man. Bear with me, because some of the terms of Hold 'em poker I'm not familiar with.

There's an ongoing free tourney at fulltiltpoker.net, where the winner goes to Los Angeles for a seat on the Poker After Dark show. You go through a qualifying tourney, where the top 9 go to the second tournament, and the sole winner of that one goes to Los Angeles. I was in the qualifying tourney.

Around 1300 people started, and through some incredible luck and very conservative play, I'm one of the last 11. I'm 8 out of 11 in chip count. So, I can conceivable just lay low, let a few beneath me die either due to high blinds or bad hands, and get into the main tourney. Easy, right?

No, because I am a dumb man. I have around 4,500 in chips at this point.

I pull a 10 of hearts, and a queen of spades in my hand, and get into the flop pretty easy with no raises on the blinds.

The flop comes out: 10 of diamonds, Queen of diamonds, 4 of diamonds.

I have two pair, possible full house. Pretty good hand, no? Everyone at the table had either folds, or checks. I raise a modest 200. Everyone folds but 1 person. He raises (he had checked initially) an additional 250.

Now at this point, had I been thinking with any clarity at all, I would have seen the check raise and noted a flush draw, and gotten out. I raise again. He raises again.

Nothing in the turn or river helps, but he manages to get me to go all in based on the assumption that he's bluffing. He's got 10,000 in chips and is just baiting me.

He's got a flush, and I get eliminated, 11th place, and I only needed to reach 9th. How stupid am I?

The problem is that you're hoping the short stacks go out without much fuss.

A lot depends on what your stack is, compared to the blinds.

If you're 8th out of 11, you have to outlast 2 people. There's only 3 people below you.

The big stacks won't do your donk work for you.. they know they're in.

I can't criticize the play without knowing more, but no, you can't coast at that point

Blinds were 80/100, I think. Top player had 12,000 or so in chips (that's who I was going against), bottom player had 30. I was 400 chips from 3rd place ... from 8th to 3rd was right around 4500-4,800 chips.

Probably 80/160 (usually the small blind is half the big blind)
One thing I can criticize now that I know a little more:

In a tournament with 9 players going in, and down to two more eliminations.. the big stack will not be risking any significant chips without a MADE HAND.

You played Q/10o, early or late position?

I probably would have thrown that away or, if I was going to play it in early position, I would have raised because if you just call and someone raises, you are more than likely folding then...

I think he was in the blinds from his discussion, or he limped in

I was the big blind in the hand, so everyone had either checked or folded by the time it got to me, so I limped in to the flop. It didn't cost me anything to see the flop, so I thought "why not?", otherwise I probably would have folded it.

EDIT: if I'm getting terminology wrong, my apologies. I was the last person to play on the table.

Your position is important here, and Mustang alluded to that. How far were you from the button? Were you one of the blinds? This is probably the most important piece of information now that we know how (approximately) how much the blinds were.

Edit: Well, he answered it before I posted.

The raises look awfully small to me. When he check-raised you for so little, that could've been him trying to see the turn and river cards cheaply, like if he had the ace of diamonds and wanted to see if he could hit a fourth diamond on the board. When you reraised and he reraised on top of that, well, yeah, it's time for you to get out. He's trying to get you to put more chips in, and it worked.

The only reason for you to re-reraise him would be if you think your two pair is good, and I think you'd have to raise a good amount to make it incorrect for him to call. Unfortunately, it really seemed like a lose-lose situation for you there, but anyone who's played poker before has been in a similar spot. It's a tough break, but I wouldn't call you stupid for it. It's probably more that you were just inexperienced with playing that deep into a tournament.

Ahh... He said there were no raises from the blinds so, didn't think he was in the small or big blind...

Preflop: Q10o

4500 Chips, 80/160 Blinds (for point of reference)

Limped to you.. depends on how many people limped. Your hand is marginal, a raise here to 480 might thin out the field or even get you the pot, while not risking a huge % of your stack, but I can see just checking here

Flop:Q 10 4 diamonds

Well, great flop for you, except, there's a flush possibility on the board. He checks to you, now if he didn't hit the flop here, a bet should chase him out. If you wanted to slow play, a check would be fine here.

However, when you bet and he check/raised you. Alarm bells should be going off HUGE right now.

1) Consider his stack size. He's guaranteed to be in the next tournament even if he steps away from the table at this point.
2) Why did he just check/raise me? Did he hit the flush and want me to hang myself?

when you consider step 1 and 2, it becomes clear that he has a MADE hand and you need to fold

You have half his stack. In a bubble situation, he's not risking that much unless he's got you beat. Two pair looks really nice, but it's a very dangerous hand to hold with that board. Even if he only has the Ad, he has a 35% chance to eliminate you. If he already has the flush, you only have an 18% chance to turn a boat. He could also be holding pocket 4's (10's are unlikely given the betting).

The thing that got me is that I was playing SO CONSERVATIVELY the entire game, hardly any bluffing, and only really getting into things when I had a very good hand. I went into the thing thinking not the win, but to place, and had the exact same situation happened when there were still a thousand or so players in the tourney, I would have folded it without a second thought.

I honestly have no idea what I was thinking in hindsight. :(

You can't count on folding into the final table here, so you'll likely have to play eventually.

QT isn't a strong hand to play, but once you're in the hand and hit top two pair there's nothing wrong will trying to stick around. Even if you know he has the flush, you stand to win a nice pot if you can hit your boat.

Your mistake was in re-raising. If he min-check-raises the flop, call it and see a cheap card. If he's dumb enough to try another check-raise, take another free card.

Then, if you get to the river and you still only have top two, you're looking to lay it down if he bets hard.

Initially, I say live and die with top two here. If you win this hand you can fold the rest of the way, and you might not find a better spot depending on the size of the blinds/other stacks.

That said, instinct trumps everything else in poker. At low limit poker, the min check raise is almost ALWAYS a huge hand barring any other information. If you strongly think you're beat, lay the hand down.

How long had you been playing up to this point? With 1300 people it must have been several hours so was it fatigue? One mental lapse and you're done. I would have maybe called his 250 reraise but then check folded from there unless the full house hit of course. He has to have a flush already or the Ad and a pair. I would think if he had a set he'd want to raise more to push out the flush.

Not sure how long I'd been playing ... we had had two five minute breaks, but honestly I'm not sure how long it was between breaks. Time just kinda flew by.

This was my second tourney in Hold 'Em poker, so I wasn't used to getting this far at all.

You'd really fold this for 250 more? If there's four people in the pot he's getting about 5-1 on a call with four outs to improve. He has the pot odds to call here, let alone the implied odds of winning another decent bet on the turn (although it's doubtful villian will double him up given the prize structure).

That's another thing to consider at the table. What is your table image?

I think your mistake here is one that I still make to often, you were looking at your hand. Look at the other factors involved:

1) Texture of the board. While you hold 2 pair, that's beyond dangerous. With that board in your situation, I'm looking to see the turn, river and final bet as cheaply as possible. If you hit the Q or T on the turn, you have a hand you can attack with. Without it, you are incredibly vulnerable.

2) If your table image is tight and someone keeps betting into you, they are telling you something. The something they are telling you is: "I know you have a hand and I don't care." With that in mind, does your two pair look so hot?

3) The big stack isn't risking anything without a made hand. He'd be an idiot to be risking 1/3 of his stack in that situation on a draw or bluff. While you still need to play a little, he can sit tight and only play hands he's a huge favorite in. Again, knowing this, you have to realize your two pair probably isn't very good.

4) Don't be all that upset about the play. Learn from it. You did still need to make a hand or two to get into the final 9. You may have picked the wrong hand to make the move in, but if you'd sat tight, been a rock and went a few rounds without a hand, you could have ended up the short stack anyway. I think your heart was in the right place. I think the key here is just putting yourself in the other guys shoes and putting him on a range of hands.

FWIW, I don't mind the raise to 200 after the flop. That should give you a good idea where you stand and could have taken down the pot right there. When he bumped it up to another 250 and I took all the other factors in, I would have layed the hand down.

For 250 More? Call, to get one more card. But there on it's check/fold unless the boat happens.

WVUFan:

This is how it was explained to me a while back.

There are 3 levels of analysis in poker.

1) What do I hold?
2) What do I think my opponent holds?
3) What do I think my opponent thinks I have?

Fish Play based on Level 1 analysis. They only consider what they have.

Q10 offsuit flopping top two? Great! Ram it and Jam it baby..

Decent Players play based on Level 2 Analysis. They put the other players on various hands.

Hmm.. he's playing this strong with three diamonds on the board. Could he have flopped a flush? Best be careful

Hmm.. he played back at me. What fits on that board?

Masters Play on Level 3 Analysis. Look at the betting pattern and see what it tells you.

That 2nd re-raise should have chased him from the pot. That indicated strength. He's saying "So what if you have a hand, I have a better one. maybe even the best one.

I'm a level 1.5 player in real life. (an action junkie), Level 2 player when I have enough time to think things through.

I echo Leafs. The raise suggests the flush, but the raise is small enough I'm willing to pay to see another card. I wouldn't reraise in the spot -- just call.

It's a dangerous board, which diminishes the likelihood I'd make my move there, but as a short stack in a situation like that if I'm going to play the hand I want to be the aggressor. I'm assuming this is no limit based on the description. A small re-raising his check-raise would be my last choice of the many options in front of me. It's either fold or all-in at the point, representing the ace. If he's holding he ace, you're still hosed, but he's more likley to fold to a push than a smallish raise.

They have one of these opening tourneys every week or two weeks (they give a spot in the show every week, I believe), so I might ask for some help the next time I'm on one.

I appreciate everyone helping with this. I don't feel quite as idiotic now, and I will take y'all's suggestion. I especially appreciate TroyF and SirFozzie .. this gives me a lot more to consider when going into these things. :)

The blind amounts don't make sense to me. 1300 people in the tournament and we're down to 11, yet the blinds are only 80-160, which, if I'm not mistaken is like the fourth blind level on FTP. Are you missing zeroes anywhere?

I very well could be wrong about the blinds. This happened on Saturday, and I'm going off of this from memory, which was never very good to begin with.

EDIT: it was a more than 1300 in the tourney, to be honest -- but I'm not sure of the exact amount.

Same thing with the chip counts. The leader with 12k in chips in a tourney with over 1300 people? What were the starting stack sizes?

Just an aside here, rather than starting another thread. . .

My problem in tournies continues to be how I play from the middle of the tourney in. I've cashed in 6 of my last 8 tournaments. Of course, I haven't finished better than 85th place in any of the tournies either.

I've tried to force myself to stay aggressive and keep playing with the same style. Instead I seem to get to passive, have consistent brain lock at the wrong times and get unlucky. (And I'm creating my own unluckiness with horrible play, it's all on me.)

I've been fighting this mental block for six months and have no idea what I can do to change it. It's not the money. They are small enough tournaments I don't give a damn if I cash or not. It's like I flip from a solid player who makes good reads, nice plays and controlled aggression to a bumbling idiot at the change of a blind.

I just don't get it.

I think 1500 chips was starting amount. Yeah, that doesn't add up either so I'm forgetting something or I had the chip count wrong for the leader. I know the person I was against had around 12000 chips though. I seem to remember him being the leader as well, but I (again) could be mistaken. :)