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The FOFC Literature Draft - Voting Thread
This is the voting thread for the FOFC Literature Draft. The original draft thread can be found here:
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ad.php?t=63935 Competitors drafted "teams" of ten works of literature. So work could be selected more than one and no artist could be used more than once. Each team had to fill a roster in the following categories:
A note on categories: The list above is what was posted as the rules. Some of the categories are loosely defined and open for interpretation. It is up to the voter to determine which works best fit in which categories, and to factor that into their voting choices. No further guidance will be given -- it's your call. Voting format You will vote for your first, second and third choices, with points awarded in 5/3/1 format. Please post in something resembling this format:
Comments on why you voted as you did are strongly encouraged. Comments from participants and observers are encouraged. Participants can campaign for votes as they see fit, keeping in mind that voters may or may not appreciate that. If you change your mind, please edit your original vote post rather than posting again. Draft participants are allowed to vote. Please bold your votes, and do no bold any commentary (so that I can scan the thread for votes as we go). The deadline for votes is Monday, March 3, 2008 at 5PM Eastern. |
The Rosters:
Chief Rum
cartman
st.cronin
DaddyTorgo
NoMyths
Warhammer
larrymcg421
Izulde
Axxon
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Buccaneer's vote:
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Thanks for posting my votes. I'm back home now - everything's down at work and I have this nasty cough (it's called the Colorado Crud, everyone gets it this time of year).
Anyway, I passed along my congrats to Warhammer for a job well done. While he did not score the highest in any category except Sports, his very strong scores in Poem, SciFi, Series, Children's and History put him over the top for me. larrymcg also had a very strong draft with no scores below a 5. He was strong in Fiction, Short Story, SciFi, Sports and Children's. Just behind and basically tied with larrymcg is cartman. He actually won 3 categories: Poem, Fantasy and Series (plus an 8 in History). But his Bio and Short Story cost him the competition, in my opinion. I could have give him a 9 for C&H which would put him in a tied for 2nd and wouldn't have any problems calling it a tie. All of the participants were close in my mind even though I gave a number of 1, 2 and 3. If any of those had a popular choice - like Izulde choosing Pooh instead of Little Prince - then the final standings would be very different. Using that example, Izulde would have placed a close 5th. Here are my final ranking, fwiw:
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1. Warhammer
2. NoMyths 3. larrymcg |
I assume participants are not allowed to vote for themselves?
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In each of the previous drafts where we had public voting, there were plenty of participants voting for themselves. |
1. Chief Rum
2. Warhammer 3. NoMyths I felt like Chief Rum and Warhammer separated themselves from the rest of the pack by having teams that were strong across the board. Everyone else had at least one pick I felt was fairly weak. Third place was a bit of a toss-up. Izulde, st. cronin and cartman just missed making my ballot. Literary merit and cultural significance trumped historical importance on my list. Books I felt had much less literary value than historical value may have even hurt teams more than they helped. Mein Kampf may have been a ballsy pick, for example, and Hitler was an incredibly important figure historically, but I have no desire to ever read it, so it didn't do much for me. |
Don't forget to bold your votes to make it easy for LS to tally things up.
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Since we had done this a few times in the draft, the tops in each category:
Fiction - Maple Leafs Short Story - Chief Rum/Cartman tied (with 4 other people tied right behind them, short story didn't separate out much) Poem - Warhammer (w/ larrymcg/NoMyths right behind) Sci Fi - St Cronin (selfishly giving the love to my favorite book) Series - Cartman Sports - Warhammer Childrens - Maple Leafs Non-fiction - Izulde Biography - Larrymcg History - Lots of people tied with very good picks(guess i'm not much of a history snob ) Votes: 1. Warhammer 2. Larrymcg 3. NoMyths I used a similar 10 point system as bucc. Warhammer came out as the clear, but not runaway, #1. Larrymcg and NoMyths actually tied for 2nd and I ended up looking at the lists side by side and deciding Larrymcg's overall list was slightly better taken in as a whole. Cartman and Maple Leafs were tied for 4th just a couple points behind. This was probably the most fun I've had following a draft, thanks a ton for running it LS. |
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I did it once and felt pretty shitty for doing so when not everyone else did it as well, never have since. But its never been forbidden. |
1. Warhammer
2. larrymcg 3. MapleLeafs Remember to bold your votes. I really liked how my picks came out, so I am going with myself first. Larrymcg's list was tough. There were 3(!) times where he took my second choice for a subject right before or right after I made my pick. Those were in short story, history, and sci-fi. When the Wizard of Oz came on my radar as a children's book, he immediately snagged it. I went with MapleLeafs third because there were no glaring screwups there. I loved his biography pick so late in the draft and was kicking myself for it, and it also took off The City of God off my non-fiction list. Most of the other lists had some questionable (in my mind) picks. Not so much for the books, but for the category they were in. st.cronin's list in my eyes would have benefited from 1984 being moved to fiction, Dune as a sci-fi pick, and then another selection in series. NoMyths had a great early draft, but I thought he made some questionable moves late. I think using Doyle for Hound of the Baskervilles as fiction with something else in short story would have worked better. I also was not thrilled with the selection of Foote in history. Early on that would have been a great pick, but the late history picks were huge. cartman's work was solid, but I thought he could have made some moves that really would have strengthened his draft. If Alice in Wonderland was moved to children's (which would have gotten my vote for best in category), Calvin and Hobbes could have been taken off the list (which is my worst in category, I like Calvin and Hobbes, but it's not lit!), he would have probably been third on my list. The other picks were solid, but none of them blew my socks off. |
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That's my thing. I have no problem voting I just feel funny voting for myself. Also, if everyone is considered to vote for themselves first, it all works itself out in the end. |
If cartoons aren't a form of literature, why are they eligible for Pulitzer Prizes?
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definitely agree with this. Depending on what replaced it, this is probably the only single pick that could have changed the winner of the entire thing. |
It seems that a third place winner will be all over the board. Even if I hadn't rated C&H so high, it wouldn't changed my rankings much.
WH, I disagree with saying C&H is not literature. That's like saying a blue cicle on canvas is not art. Many children can relate to the morals and contemplations of C&H than some dense book that is more for adults. Literature, like art, is about conveying a message and an emotion. |
Or for that matter how can cartoons and illustrated books win the Caldecott and Newberry Medals for children's literature if they aren't considered literature?
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I make a distinction in my mind between the journalism awards (those for each part of a newspaper or periodical, i.e. editorial cartooning, criticism, commentary, reporting, photography, etc.) and those for general writing (music, fiction, non-fiction, etc.). Sure, a cartoon could be nominated for fiction, but it better be an incredible cartoon and Calvin and Hobbes doesn't get there for me. |
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But that's not the argument you made. You dismissed it out of hand as "not literature". |
1. larrymcg 2. warhammer 3. nomyths |
I probably should backtrack my complete agreement w/ the bit I quoted. I didn't specifically give C&H a low score b/c of a distinction about whether it qualified as literature. I gave it a low score b/c against Dr Seuss, Charlotte's Web, Shel Silverstein, Charlie & The Chocolate Factory, etc, I felt that it held up very very poorly. i can see the strategy as there is a ton of love for Calvin and Hobbes on a board like this one, but it still felt like a pick that didn't stand up to the quality of the rest of the category.
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This is where I disagree. A blue circle on canvas isn't art. Again, I love C&H, I just don't consider it great literature. Even my nephews, who have the complete C&H collection and adore them, did not mention C&H when I asked them about their favorite children's literature. They did mention Where the Wild Things Are, Hardy Boys, Wrinkle in Time, and even Goodnight Moon. Now if the category was cartoon. C&H would have won the category. I can only think of one, maybe two, cartoons I put ahead of C&H and those are Peanuts and The Far Side. Quote:
Two different criteria for awards. The Caldecott medal an award for illustration. It has nothing to do about message, although I am sure that helps. The Newbury Medal is more about the actual writing than it is about the illustrations. |
This is rough - Cartman picked Rand (albeit not The Fountainhead) and Calvin and Hobbes - both of which I wrote my college essay on. That's pretty damn dear to the heart. On the other hand, NoMyths went with Catcher in the Rye and The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy - the latter being the closest thing to a bible for me. Can't split the vote - can I?
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1. NoMyths
2. DaddyTorgo 3. Maple Leafs Other than Shelby Foote, NoMyths had no holes in his list in my estimation. He picked well early with the Divine Comedy and Darwin, and held up well late with Salinger and Doyle. I found DT's list to be very steady throughout. Anne Frank as a history and Colerigde as a poem cost Maple Leafs in my judgment. CR had huge picks late, closing with Newton and Dostoevsky. But I couldn't count any story with 100+ pages (A Christmas Carol) as a short story, and that knocked his list out of the running for me. If it is still in print today as a hardcover, it isn't a short story. I will freely disclose that this judge is flawed. I had a very hard time scoring sports books, as I'd only read 3 of them. |
Also,
I certainly prefer C&H to a whole bunch of "children's literature" - it holds up better. I refuse to punish Cartman for a great/innovative pick. |
So far (up to Greyfoo), I got:
Warhammer - 26 larrymcg - 17 Chief Rum - 6 NoMyths - 3 cartman - 1 Maple Leafs - 1 |
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It has to be a literative cartoon. My point is that I don't consider C&H literature, just like I don't consider The Far Side or Peanuts literature either. Also, being nominated for something is quite different than winning. There is no cartoon that I would nominate for a Pulitzer Prize for fiction. None. That doesn't mean someone else can't. That also doesn't mean that there can't be cartoons that are not great lit, but I haven't seen one yet. |
I declined to consider my own list so I will be voting based on the remaining contestants.
1. Maple Leafs 2. NoMyths 3. Warhammer |
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Go ahead and make me feel bad! :D I'm done posting in this thread, don't want to hack off any voters. |
After more thought, my list is:
1 (tie): NoMyths 1. (tie): Cartman 3. Warhammer |
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Hey, at least you have votes. |
I like and respect CR's pick of the Bible, but I think A Christmas Carol is very overrated, and not that good. Taking it as a short story, and that high was a massive mistake, to my mind. And Robert Frost is a poet for hacks. No respect there either.
cartman's choice for Cask, over other Poe stories puzzles me. If it had been an author draft, and he had taken Poe, he gets credit. The LotR was written as one novel, and split into three by the publisher, so I disagree with it being a series. Also, as much as I love LotR, there is NO WAY it deserves to be the second pick in the draft. Now stcronin has soem respecful choices. Joyce is not an easy read. Faulkner is solid. Dune is good scifi. Until I get to Zen, which is another overratted book. Zen is to non-fiction whaat A Christmas Carol is to short stories. Yuk. maple leafs - can;t go wrong with Shakespeare, and Hamlet is a good choice for him. I might have gone Tempest myself, but I respect the Hamlet choice. War of the Worlds was new, I grant you that, but HGWells was a hack. Jules Verne was the real scifi writer from that era. Teh Cat in the Hat is too obvious, and pretty weak. On the other hand, for biography, I think Confessions is an inspired choice, and one of the best selections of the draft. DT - Major, major credit for Romance of the 3K. I think taking Foundation Series too early was hurtful, I'd rather have one of the top works in a genre that has been around for more than a hundred years, especially for series where tons of other options were available. Pelopenesian War was a hgood call, especially since you ended up with bradbury anyway at the scifi spot. You also have John Locke and Tolstoy and Whitman in there. So far, this is the best draft I've reviewed. NoMyths - Doyle is overrated as well, and the Holmes stories are very formulaic. I'll give you credit for Darwin and Douglas, those are solid choices. the rest of your drafts makes me god ennnh. Warhammer - Narnia is bad writing. Lewis should never have been published and no one should be reading those books. Numerous pbjective studies have been done, and the grammr is poor, and Lewis had the smallest word count among children's authors. It's banefully bad writing, and if you read it today, you can tell. No way does he deserve a spot here and ugh. The fact you have it discoutns eveyrthing else you took, to my mind. AA Milne is not far behind, either. Ugh. Worst draft with those two in your stable. I wouldn;t have either writer write my TV manual. larrymcg - You nailed history and did it with the 8th round pick with Herodotus. That should have been the first history off the board. Verne over hacks like Wells, good call. Although he is not that good by today;s standards, Burroughs was a better writer than many of his comtemporaries, so I'll grant you that. Twain, Milton, Marx, Hitler - there's some good stuff there. You have moved to my top spot. Izulde - There's not a bad choice here for me to zing, but other than Sun Tzu, there's not much here to praise either. Ho hum. Axxon - I credit you for taking the Potter books. Althogh recently written they are heads and tails better than soime of these other works. Silverstein is a weak choice, to my mind. You should have put Potter in children's, and you could have gotten another series, and not have been forced to fit Silverstein into your lattice. Frankly, Stephen King is a classic example of a hack, no respect there at all, especially as a first round pick. So, I think you mishandled your list, and King had no business there. In a literature draft, of all time, don;t take stuff that isn;t going to be read in 200-300 years. King is not the same as Dickens (and for God's sake, don't take A Christmas Carol, one of Dickens's worst works, and use it for the great author). There are writers taken that are not going to be read in a few hundred years, they do not stand the test of time I don;t particularly care for romance, but where are those? Did no one say, let's grab one of the top romances of all time? Were the only horror writers you could think of Poe and King? (Shelly's Frankenstein is not a work of horror). Mystery was non-existant except for the overrated Wlls. And frankly, as much as I like sci-fi, there should have been no sci-fi works outside of that genre. Sci-fi has been around for a little over 100 years, romance has been around for forever, so which has the better works overall, hmm? Most of these scifi works do not hold a candle to other writings that didn;t chart. There are works that changed the world, that are not on here. There's no Plato? No Paine? The list is too 20th century weighted. No one took Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard? Frankly, epic poetry, like Odyssey is much different in style, form, and intent than something like Elegy. I'm not sure they belong in the same category. I think including the scifi genre was weak, but the sports genre was super weak. Come on now. That's like including historical what-ifs as a genre. With that, here are my top three: 1. Larrymcg 2. DaddyTorgo 3. NoMyths Have fun all! |
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And how exactly do you expect me to score this? The best I can do is give them both 2nd place points. |
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Why couldn't they split the 1st and 2nd place points for 4 each? |
1. Warhammer
2. Maple Leafs 3. Daddy Torgo |
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This is a message board for text sim sports games, not a Master's Lit course. |
The only functional difference between Dr. Seuss and C&H is that the good Doctor's frames take up the whole page. Although I think C&H is one of the weaker entires in the children's section, I do not doubt that it qualifies for consideration.
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That seems a bit odd to me? Not sure. What does the peanut gallery think? |
We definitely have a clear early leader.. Through Touchstone's list (and excluding Crapshoot's) we have:
We have a long way to go, though. Only 11 votes cast thus far. |
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It's your call, of course, but I'm pretty sure that's how it works in things like the college football polls. The way to think of it is that each of our ballots is worth 9 points as 5+3+1. If he has a tie for first, his total should still equal 9, so 4+4+1. |
I think that giving 4 points each makes sense.
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Agreed, which is why I didn;t zing it in my overview. Cartoons count. So should comics. |
I seem to have the most polarizing picks. There are a couple of mine that people aren't on the fence about. They either love that pick or hate it.
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Good, strong opinions, Anxiety. I don't agree with you on sci-fi. It may be a comparatively young genre, but it is not weak. I'm with you on sports.
Very enjoyable draft to follow, Lordscarlet. Things like this are why I keep checking in with the board. |
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I considered Watchmen in Fiction for my undrafted list. :) (I probably would not have considered it if I were in the 10 true picks) |
Oh, and thanks to everyone that participated in the draft. I am getting a lot of praise (thanks to those people as well), but the speed in particular was due to the great participants. I am happy to take the credit, but I did very little to keep the draft pace going (I in fact slowed it down several times. :) ). I loved participating in the Music draft. I would definitely enjoy more drafts as well. I was hoping to get the ball rolling on more drafts, so we'll see how that goes. It definitely increases the number of times I visit the board in a day.
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haha wow, interesting reading Anxiety's comments, and his voting standards compared to the rest of us clearly shows why its best to make your draft picks geared towards a popularity contest among the masses, not someone with a masters in lit or something like that. Many of the authors that he calls hacks(and with more study in literature he may well be right, I have no clue) have written some of the most popular works ever and those hacks are bringing in the votes from me and lots of others. Very interesting.
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Seriously, awesome idea for a draft. My votes:
1) st.cronin 2) Izulde 3) NoMyths A great selection of books all across the board, though, and some inspired choices. Surprised no one picked DeLillo's End Zone for the sports section, mind (surely would've qualified if North Dallas Forty was allowed). That's a first rate read, and highly recommended to anyone who hasn't heard of it. |
Tough call, but here it is:1. NoMyths2. Warhammer3. larrymcg421
grr... my enter key isn't working! I am disenfranchised![/b] |
1. larrymcg
2. Chief Rum 3. Warhammer |
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