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-   -   Jesse Helms Died This Morning (https://forums.operationsports.com/fofc//showthread.php?t=66224)

Vegas Vic 07-04-2008 12:32 PM
Jesse Helms Died This Morning
 
I grew up in North Carolina, and this man was both hated and revered by the citizens there on an almost 50-50 basis.

Here's one of his most famous campaign ads:

Honolulu_Blue 07-04-2008 12:41 PM
And the world's a better place for it.

Later, Mr. Helms.

MrBug708 07-04-2008 12:50 PM
RIP to a good man

Zelig 07-04-2008 01:22 PM
The last two post made me laugh.

MikeVic 07-04-2008 01:33 PM
Same with me.

Danny 07-04-2008 01:47 PM
Yeah, first three posts are pretty funny one after another

Radii 07-04-2008 01:51 PM
Quote:
Helms blamed gays and lesbians for "the proliferation of AIDS," and stating he disliked using the word "gay" to refer to them since, "...there's nothing gay about them."

Quote:
Of civil rights protests Helms stated in 1963 that "The Negro cannot count forever on the kind of restraint that's thus far left him free to clog the streets, disrupt traffic, and interfere with other men's rights."[6] (WRAL-TV commentary, 1963) He also wrote, "Crime rates and irresponsibility among Negroes are a fact of life which must be faced." (New York Times, 2/8/81)

Quote:
Helms' referred to the University of North Carolina (UNC) as the "University of Negroes and Communists." (Charleston Gazette, 9/15/95)[7]

Quote:
Helms once deeply offended a black colleague, Democratic Senator Carol Moseley-Braun of Illinois, by singing part of "Dixie" on a Capitol elevator.

Soon after the Senate vote on the Confederate flag insignia, Sen. Jesse Helms (R.-N.C.) ran into Mosely-Braun in a Capitol elevator. Helms turned to his friend, Sen. Orrin Hatch (R.-Utah), and said, "Watch me make her cry. I'm going to make her cry. I'm going to sing 'Dixie' until she cries." He then proceeded to sing the song about "the good life" during slavery to Mosely-Braun (Gannett News Service, 9/2/93; Time, 8/16/93).[7]

Quote:
While working on the 1950 Democrat primary campaign of Willis Smith against Frank Porter Graham, Helms helped create an ad that read "White people, wake up before it is too late. Do you want Negroes working beside you, your wife and your daughters, in your mills and factories? Frank Graham favors mingling of the races." Another ad featured photographs Helms himself had doctored to illustrate the allegation that Graham's wife had danced with a black man. (FAIR 9/1/01, The News and Observer 8/26/01)

Quote:
When Roberta Achtenberg was appointed Assistant Secretary of the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development in 1993 by President Bill Clinton, Helms attempted to block her confirmation, stating that he refused to vote for her "because she's a damn lesbian."

Quote:
Hendrik Hertzberg of The New Yorker noted in his memoirs that Helms had "the 'humorous habit'" of calling all black people "Fred".

Quote:
Helms once claimed that "The New York Times and Washington Post are both infested with homosexuals themselves. Just about every person down there is a homosexual or lesbian."[11]



I grew up in North Carolina. I turned 18 and registered to vote in 1994. I came to Atlanta for college in 1995. I passed by many "quick registration" stations on campus (that would register me to vote in Georgia) so that I could go back up to North Carolina in November 1996 for the sole purpose of being able to claim that I had cast one vote against Jesse Helms in my lifetime.

CU Tiger 07-04-2008 02:07 PM
Having grown up in the Carolinas and met Sen. Helms on at least 3 occaisons, he seemed like a decent guy. I obviously disagree completely with many of hiss racial views, although I do excuse him just a bit because of his age and the era he was raised in, but its a shame he never realized the folley in those views.

All that said, Helms did much good for many people, while also causing his share of harm, probably not unlike many of us.

Im not in tears over his death; but would never be heartless enough to say the world is a better place for it.

GrantDawg 07-05-2008 09:41 AM
The first funeral I ever did was while I was in NC. I had never even been to a funeral that was just a grave-side service, and was extremely nervous. Once I arrived, I was informed there was a good chance that Sen. Helms was going to be there. That did nothing at all to help my nerves. Thankfully, he didn't show.

Subby 07-05-2008 09:53 AM
He'll be sorely missed...

BY THE KLAN.

M GO BLUE!!! 07-05-2008 10:13 AM
How long until we find out about his secret black family?

Grammaticus 07-05-2008 11:40 AM
Wow, I thought for sure we would do a thread like this about Ted Kennedy first. Oh well, all in due time.

Dutch 07-05-2008 01:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subby (Post 1769943)
He'll be sorely missed...

BY THE KLAN.

Whatever. Robert "Exhalted Cyclops" Byrd is who they save their tears for. (Yikes!)

Radii 07-05-2008 01:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch (Post 1770003)
Whatever. Robert "Exhalted Cyclops" Byrd is who they save their tears for. (Yikes!)

This really isn't a right vs left thing. Racism and such blind hatred is simply wrong and people who have these beliefs are terrible, terrible people to have making the laws in our country and representing our country and its ideals to the rest of the world, no matter how they vote on most issues or what side of the aisle they sit on.

In my younger years I openly wished death on Helms, JiMGA style, because I felt he was such an embarrassment to the state of North Carolina. I regret having that kind of hatred and am not going to celebrate that he is dead.

I guess its inevitable, but I am kinda shocked to see this thread start to go down the path of blind right vs left who is better when that isn't at all what anyone here is talking about. Older democrats who cannot let go of their racial views from their younger days need to be out of government too.

RendeR 07-05-2008 01:47 PM
I'm not celebrating but I sure as hell won't lose a wink of slep over it. people like helms who try to spread ignorance and hatred are beter off gone from the gene pool.

JonInMiddleGA 07-05-2008 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radii (Post 1770005)
I am kinda shocked to see this thread start to go down the path of blind right vs left who is better when that isn't at all what anyone here is talking about.

If you're shocked, then you haven't been paying close attention. It's why I didn't bother to mention Helms' death before this thread popped up.

I see a man who stuck to his principles in admirable fashion and who definitely carried the courage of his convictions who is likely worth any 10 elected officials from either side of the aisle today.

From his NYT obit comes one of the better quotes I've seen this week “I didn’t come to Washington to be a ‘yes man’ for any president, Democrat or Republican,” he said in an interview in 1989. “I didn’t come to Washington to get along and win any popularity contests.”.

Sadly, I don't have much hope that we'll see many of his character again & as a nation we're a lot poorer for that. But considering how little he would have been concerned with the criticism from quarters like FOFC, I'm going to just let those who can't understand that just rant & rave. I suspect he wouldn't mind a bit.

Vegas Vic 07-05-2008 02:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 1770012)
I see a man who stuck to his principles in admirable fashion and who definitely carried the courage of his convictions.

I think Madeleine Albright, Clinton's Secretary of State, summed up Helms the best:

"He was the kindest, most infuriating, politest, most aggravating and nicest politician I had to deal with in the United States Senate."

RendeR 07-05-2008 02:32 PM
It is admirable that he stuck to who he was and held his belief's so dear.

Its just sad that he couldn't have been a decent human being and still hold those convictions.

Radii 07-05-2008 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RendeR (Post 1770019)
It is admirable that he stuck to who he was and held his belief's so dear.

Its just sad that he couldn't have been a decent human being and still hold those convictions.


Thanks. I started to reply about 3 times and ended up erasing everything I wrote. That sums up what I was trying to spit out very nicely.

Karlifornia 07-05-2008 02:42 PM
Gay people can be pure sleaze..like his granddaughter:


Quote:
Originally Posted by about.com blog
Jesse Helms' Gay Granddaughter Uses Him for Election Advantage
Saturday October 30, 2004
Jesse Helms was one of the nastiest and most vocal anti-gay bigots in the Senate. His granddaughter is campaigning to become a district judge in North Carolina. Helms doesn't know she is gay and state Republican leaders who engage in regular gay-baiting in their own campaign literature fail to mention Jennifer Knox's long-time lesbian partner. Hypocrites? You bet.
According to Blue Lemur:

When Knox announced her Wake County candidacy Apr. 30, she said Helms was the primary factor in driving her to run for elective office. “He’s dedicated 30-plus years of his life to the American people and to the people of North Carolina and that has really made an impact on me,” she said. “That’s the biggest thing in making me want to go into elected office.”
The state’s Republican Party platform is unequivocal about homosexuality. “We believe homosexuality is not normal and should not be established as an acceptable ‘alternative’ lifestyle either in public education or in public policy,” the platform states. “We do not believe public schools should be used to teach children that homosexuality is normal… We commend private organizations, such as the Boy Scouts, which defend moral decency and freedom.”
Just so that no one gets any mistaken notions about Helms' position on homosexuality, some quotes are included:

Helms wrote [to a mother who lost her son to AIDS]: “As for homosexuality, The Bible judges it, I do not,” Helms replied. “There is no justification for AIDS funding far exceeding that for other killer diseases such as cancer, heart trouble, etc. As for [your son] Mark, I wish he had not played Russian roulette in his sexual activity,” he added. “There is no escaping the reality of what happened.”
The letter became the inspiration for a documentary called “Dear Jesse.” The film, which was reviewed in the New York Times and the Washington Post, enraged the senator, who again lashed out against gays. “Those people are intellectually dishonest in just about everything they do or say. They start by pretending that it is just another form of love,” Helms said. “It’s sickening. The New York Times and The Washington Post are both infested with homosexuals themselves.”
One of the problems with the Republican Party and religious conservatives is their desire to keep homosexuality in the closet. If they acknowledged the existence of gays, even in their ranks and in their families, it would do a lot to help gays become more accepted in society. That is contrary to the goals of the religious conservatives, as Helms makes so clear in the above quotes. That is also why these stories are so important. If Republicans aren't able to acknowledge the truth, others will have to do the job of bringing the truth out.

hxxp://atheism.about.com/b/2004/10/30/jesse-helms-gay-granddaughter-uses-him-for-election-advantage.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by helms wikipedia page
While working on the primary campaign against Frank Porter Graham, Helms helped create an ad that read, "White people, wake up before it is too late. Do you want Negroes working beside you, your wife and your daughters, in your mills and factories?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
Helms had close ties to the rightist Salvadoran death squad leader Roberto D'Aubuisson and was considered a main sponsor of D'Aubuisson's political party, the Nationalist Republican Alliance. When confronted with evidence that D'Aubuisson ran death squads that systematically murdered civilians, he replied that "all I know, is that D'Aubuisson is a free enterprise man and deeply religious."

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloom county comic strip
Jingle Helms! Jingle Helms! Jingle from Jess-e!/Oh what fun it is to ride/On a tobacco subsidy!"

I guess, considering if Jesse had his way, I wouldn't have been born...so there really wasn't any reason for me to be a fan of his. I guess at least half of a whole state disagreed with me for many, many years. It's not really puzzling. It's "Nurth Cuh-lina". If any family misses him, sorry...but...yeah fuck him.

Oilers9911 07-05-2008 04:41 PM
If being a racist and a bigot is admirable then I guess Helms was very admirable indeed. How is sticking to such hate-filled convictions at all admirable?

Buccaneer 07-05-2008 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by helms wikipedia page
While working on the primary campaign against Frank Porter Graham, Helms helped create an ad that read, "White people, wake up before it is too late. Do you want Negroes working beside you, your wife and your daughters, in your mills and factories?

What year was this from?

Groundhog 07-05-2008 06:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilers9911 (Post 1770044)
If being a racist and a bigot is admirable then I guess Helms was very admirable indeed. How is sticking to such hate-filled convictions at all admirable?

That's exactly what I've been trying to figure out while reading through this thread.

RendeR 07-05-2008 08:04 PM
You have to seperate the two thngs:

A) he was a racist and a bigot and in general a pig.

B) He didn't give a shit what you or anyone else thought of him, he stuck with his beliefs, no mater how foul and pathetic. He didn't cowtow to the politically correct mafia.


Part A he should and rightfully is despised for by, I HOPE, a majority of people

Part B I can at least understand people admiring, because in this day and age of saying the right things to the right people and not pising anyone off for the sake of getting elected, he didn't and even I can see that it took some balls to do that for as long as he did.

Maple Leafs 07-05-2008 08:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RendeR (Post 1770090)
You have to seperate the two thngs:

A) he was a racist and a bigot and in general a pig.

B) He didn't give a shit what you or anyone else thought of him, he stuck with his beliefs
If his beliefs are accurately described in A), then no, I really don't have to seperate them.

RendeR 07-05-2008 08:44 PM
Neither do I personally, but I was trying to help people understand JIMG's PoV.

He admires the fact that Helms, or I suppose anyone could stick to their beliefs in the face of recrimination as helms did throughout his career.

Vegas Vic 07-05-2008 09:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RendeR (Post 1770098)
He admires the fact that Helms, or I suppose anyone could stick to their beliefs in the face of recrimination as helms did throughout his career.

Couldn't the same thing be said about Adolf Hitler?

Axxon 07-05-2008 09:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas Vic (Post 1770102)
Couldn't the same thing be said about Adolf Hitler?


Who said he didn't admire him too? ;)

RendeR 07-05-2008 11:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxon (Post 1770121)
Who said he didn't admire him too? ;)


We are talking about JIMG here...

Young Drachma 07-05-2008 11:55 PM
He probably didn't want to live with the possibility of a President Obama.

molson 07-06-2008 01:51 AM
I'm not going to judge someone who was raised in a different time, who's life I didn't lead, etc, but this guy being in office so long sure does say something about North Carolina.

"Sticking to your convictions" isn't really a compliment, if that's the best anyone can say about the guy, then that's pretty telling. It's not like he stood up for unpopular opinions - he was from North Carolina, where his opinions were widespread enough to keep him in office as long as he wanted. That didn't exactly take courage.

At best, Helms is like your drunken great-uncle at Thankgiving, he says embarassing things, you try to keep him away from the kids and your girlfriend, but at least he's polite when he's not talking about "the blacks".

Dutch 07-06-2008 02:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buccaneer (Post 1770060)
What year was this from?

1950, while working for the Democrats.

Zelig 07-06-2008 09:35 AM
out before lock

Kodos 07-06-2008 12:30 PM
Bye-bye to another guy who won't be missed.

Honolulu_Blue 07-06-2008 12:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RendeR (Post 1770019)
It is admirable that he stuck to who he was and held his belief's so dear.

Its just sad that he couldn't have been a decent human being and still hold those convictions.

No, it's not. There's nothing admirable about sticking to bigotted, unexamined beliefs. Nothing at all.

I understand he comes from a different time and a different place, but he lived a long, long time. Things changed considerably over the span of his lifetime. What would have been truly admirable is for him to admit that he was flat-wrong and apologize for all the harm he did.

Really examining or re-examining one's beliefs and admitting that what you originally thought is very, very hard. Too many people are too proud, too pig-headed, or too arrogant to do so. It takes a special kind of courage to really look at things and, if you determine your beliefs were wrong, fess up to it.

It's easy to sit back and say "I believe what I believe because that's how it always was and that's how it always will be. Aint nohin' gonna change that."

Glengoyne 07-06-2008 02:46 PM
I don't believe the racist element of his beliefs was prominent in his last several years in the Senate. He certainly didn't bow to Political Correctness, and for that I cannot fault him. Even that said, I wasn't a fan. I was glad to see him retire.

He did hold his ground and stick to his guns though. I think my favorite example of his single mindedness was when he defeated the nomination of William Weld(sp?) as Ambassador to Mexico, and did so with little to no support from his fellow Republicans. Weld was a sound nominee, but had held a position opposed to Helms on some issue.

Helms refused to bring the vote to committee. When more moderate Republicans , led by Dick Lugar, attempted to call Helms on it, Helms outmaneuvered them with procedural rules. Not something that I found particularly admirable, but he wasn't going to let reasonable minds prevail. Not when he had made up his mind.

Vegas Vic 07-06-2008 04:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glengoyne (Post 1770344)
I don't believe the racist element of his beliefs was prominent in his last several years in the Senate.

That's probably a fair statement. In his latter years, Helms did a lot of work with U2's Bono (who considered him a friend) on AIDS relief to Africa.


KWhit 07-06-2008 07:15 PM
What I can't believe about this thread is that "not being a racist fuck" is being referred to as "political correctness."

RendeR 07-06-2008 07:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KWhit (Post 1770517)
What I can't believe about this thread is that "not being a racist fuck" is being referred to as "political correctness."



No, its not, not directly at least. I know I'm not condoning his position on things in any way.

All I said and others, is that Helms never gave in to those who said "OOOHHH you can't say THAT" and never towed the line for the sake of popularity.

He was a racist fuck, no argument from me. But the whole issue developed because someone admired the fact that he DIDN'T cave in to the popular sentiment to hide what he really felt.

larrymcg421 07-06-2008 08:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RendeR (Post 1770531)
No, its not, not directly at least. I know I'm not condoning his position on things in any way.

All I said and others, is that Helms never gave in to those who said "OOOHHH you can't say THAT" and never towed the line for the sake of popularity.

He was a racist fuck, no argument from me. But the whole issue developed because someone admired the fact that he DIDN'T cave in to the popular sentiment to hide what he really felt.

This is all kind of a silly argument, because it's not like his positions ever put him in danger of losing re-election. The only popular sentiment that he needed to worry about was in North Carolina, and he was right in line with it.

molson 07-06-2008 08:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RendeR (Post 1770531)
All I said and others, is that Helms never gave in to those who said "OOOHHH you can't say THAT" and never towed the line for the sake of popularity.

He was a racist fuck, no argument from me. But the whole issue developed because someone admired the fact that he DIDN'T cave in to the popular sentiment to hide what he really felt.

He was elected to the Senate for 30 years - how much popularity do you really think he sacrificed? His re-elections show that his views WERE the popular sentiment in North Carolina.

RendeR 07-06-2008 09:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by molson (Post 1770550)
He was elected to the Senate for 30 years



not to sound trite or anything, but umm, WHERE is the Senate? Did they somehow move it to Charlotte or Raleigh for those 30 years? No, it was right there in DC as always.

The vitriol and venom of the general populace were on him for most all of his career. Sure he was popular in North Carolina, but thats relly irrelevant to the situation we're talking about. He faced the continued attacks of the general media. He also didn't give a shit. how many other politicians can we say that about? Not too damned many, and fewer yet that had 30 year careers.

yes he was a schmuck and a piss poor excuse for a human being, but if you, like JIMG, are really trying to find some positive trait about the man, then you can certainly look at his steadfastness and unwavering belief in the things he held to be true.

Yes, those things were dispicable, sad and pretty much entirely wrong, but no matter his image in the country, he stuck to them.

Thats all I'm saying. You act like I'm trying tod efend the man. I'm not, but I will defend JIMG's PoV because its valid. (holy shit someone shoot me now, I can't believe I just said that...)

RendeR 07-06-2008 09:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2 (Post 1770602)
the man may have been ignorant, but i'll be a monkeys uncle if he didn't cling to that ignorance like a baby to his binky. what a noble man.



EXACTLY!!!!!

Groundhog 07-06-2008 09:38 PM
There is nothing admirable about sticking with outdated ideas, especially hateful ones like racism. It's just sad, really. I honestly don't care what the rest of this guy's "legacy" was. Racism, especially from someone in this guy's position, is not a character fault that can be so easily brushed aside.

JonInMiddleGA 07-06-2008 09:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 1770539)
it's not like his positions ever put him in danger of losing re-election.

I hate to let facts get in the way of utter horsecrap but ...

Quote:
Although Helms is generally credited with being the most successful Republican politician in North Carolina history, his largest proportion of the vote in any of his five elections was 54.5 percent.

larrymcg421 07-06-2008 10:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 1770612)
I hate to let facts get in the way of utter horsecrap but ...

Well I'd hate for reading comprehension to get in the way of "utter horsecrap", but I never claimed he didn't have a close race. I claimed that his positions didn't put him in danger of losing. What I mean is that the same positions that guaranteed 45% of the state to vote against him, also guaranteed him more than 50%. I don't think he ever felt pressured to change his positions, because they helped him more than they hurt him.

Grammaticus 07-06-2008 10:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 1770626)
Well I'd hate for reading comprehension to get in the way of "utter horsecrap", but I never claimed he didn't have a close race. I claimed that his positions didn't put him in danger of losing. What I mean is that the same positions that guaranteed 45% of the state to vote against him, also guaranteed him more than 50%. I don't think he ever felt pressured to change his positions, because they helped him more than they hurt him.

I'm certainly not from North Carolina, but I have to say that you are very arrogant and short sighted to state that his "positions" (clarified as racist views throughout the thread) are what guaranteed him more than 50% of the vote.

The fact that you can claim everyone who voted for him is a racists is a very poor thing. Are you ready to state everyone who supports / votes for Jesse Jackson, Cynthia McKinney, Al Sharpton, etc. are racists? Jesse, Cynthia and Al all have positions of extreme racism from which they do not budge. So does that mean all voters who support them are also racists? Or do they just make compromises to try and share a little good ol' power? Or is it something else?

larrymcg421 07-06-2008 10:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grammaticus (Post 1770640)
I'm certainly not from North Carolina, but I have to say that you are very arrogant and short sighted to state that his "positions" (clarified as racist views throughout the thread) are what guaranteed him more than 50% of the vote.

Okay, it's not that hard to follow. Jesse Helms is a racist. His racism influences his political views. Those views appeal to people in North Carolina. That doesn't make all of them racist. For example, the ad at the top of the thread is definitely influenced by Helms bigotry. However, that ad is certainly effective for people who aren't bigots, but still opposed to affirmative action.

Quote:
The fact that you can claim everyone who voted for him is a racists is a very poor thing. Are you ready to state everyone who supports / votes for Jesse Jackson, Cynthia McKinney, Al Sharpton, etc. are racists?

Well since I never said that people voting for Helms were racist, I would certainly not say the same here.


Quote:
Jesse, Cynthia and Al all have positions of extreme racism from which they do not budge.

Well then that means that they deserve the same respect that some people in this thread want to give to Helms, right? Still, your analysis isn't really true. Jackson's "Hymietown" remarks certainly hurt his political career (and Jerry Brown's presidential bid in 1992), and because of that he has certainly backed away from such anti-semitism.

Quote:
So does that mean all voters who support them are also racists? Or do they just make compromises to try and share a little good ol' power? Or is it something else?

Sorry dude, but you're reading something into my post that just isn't there. This is one of my big pet peeves here and it happens quite a bit. People get their idea of what they want to argue against, and then run with it, no matter what the other side is actually saying. If you can't respond to what I'm actually saying, then why bother responding at all?

Grammaticus 07-06-2008 11:32 PM
Actually you did and supported it in your response post. You are saying that racist views appeal to people in North Carolina. Right?

I'm just saying that is a very arrogant and short sighted thing to imply.

It is also fair to say that Helm's had many arrogant and short sighted beliefs and views.

Maybe the two of you share more in common than you would care to admit.

larrymcg421 07-06-2008 11:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grammaticus (Post 1770667)
Actually you did and supported it in your response post. You are saying that racist views appeal to people in North Carolina. Right?

Nope.

Jesse Helms (racist) is against affirmative action.

North Carolina voter (not racist) is also against affirmative action.

Thus, Jesse Helms (racist) anti-affirmative action ad will appeal to North Carolina voter (not racist).

You seem to want to argue agaisnt someone who is claiming that half of North Carolina voters are racist. You're wasting your time here, because that's not what I said, it's not what I'm saying, and it's not what I'm gonna say.


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