Am I in the wrong?
 

A FOFC opinion poll, for my benefit:

Last weekend at my Grandad's funeral (thanks for your assumed condolences, it was his time and all that) the Monsignor said my Aunt's name wrong during his biography. Her name is Ann, and he clearly referred to her as Dianne, to the point that all my family members immediately winced, and that was it for family references. Particularly ironic in this case, because my aunt spent literally every moment she could with my Grandad, until literally the moment he passed away. He also really didn't make mention of my Grandad's service or devotion to the church, outside of what I would assume were generic usuals, although Eldersloppy's crucifix literally hangs in their church lobby, and he has another sculpture out on the front of their grounds.

I tried to get the Monsignor to apologize to my aunt, figuring that it wouldn't be too hard, if only as a condescension to a grieving and emotional family....but it turns out I was wrong, and am on the verge of a cage match with this motherfucker. I could go into more details, but they'd probably affect your judgment, and I'd appreciate any opinion as to whether I'm being nuts (and I surely DID dig in the screws well beyond necessary, knowing full well the ego on this bastard....maybe the phrase "most basic Christly duties" was a bit over the top), or am correct in feeling insulted, and then further insulted.

I'll knock out the important details/numbers. Enjoy?:



..and I should mention that I've already responded JUST short of the fully armed, nuclear variety, but I'm not including that either, for fear of poisoning judgment.

I think my answer falls somewhere in between your choices. I think you and your family have a right to be insulted, but you should probably let it go at this point.

Was your email the first contact about the name? If so it seems rather harsh and designed to lead to a confrontation. Where do you think this will lead? Is it worth ruining your relationship with his parish?

If it makes any difference, I am not religious in the slightest (though I didn't go out of my way to give that impression) and nobody else in the family attends that church anymore, so there's no danger of some extended church drama or anything. It would be totally easy to let it go, and just as easy to forward those emails to somebody else with no skin off my back, for whatever it's worth.

I probably will let it go, but it pisses me off that the funeral got screwed and then I got personally insulted for trying to give my Aunt a sweet little surprise apology to relieve some of her grief....which she won't even get.

wow. just wow.

I'm siding with the church here. You chose a number of pretty aggressive phrases in that email that make you sound a bit loony IMHO.

Would your grandfather have liked this to be the focus of the entire family at this point?

My father's a pastor, close to 72, and he's flubbed a name or two at weddings and funerals over the years. I know he's gone with a bible verse a time or two that people didn't agree with. I don't think it disgraced anyone's memory or tainted anyone's weddings. He does put his heart into every one and takes every one seriously. I can't imagine someone asking him to "profusely apologize" to multiple people for a flub. Unless he accidently called a guy Hitler instead of Hank or something. His response to that email would have been a lot more smartassish.

For all intents and purposes, yes. I talked to the woman briefly on the phone, but just enough to explain the situation briefly and get her email. And no, it is not my family's first run in with this dude, and he is a noted asshole (at least to our collective views), to the point that he and my Grandad had significant dust-ups in the past. That may be both reason for why I started on the wrong foot, and he finished there.

...all that said, I'm not a priest. Frankly, I don't have a duty to him or his family.

If you were the other two families that were planning funerals with him, would you want to know this is how he handled his previous funeral?

I'd say you're very much in bounds, both for having the slip be troublesome & for being bothered by the seemingly generic service. I'd say the request for an apology on the former is also reasonable, although I might concede the clergy's point ("did my best") to some extent with regard to an apology on the content. The fact that his best seems to have been considerably underwhelming, that may be the best he's capable of. (Ever been to other funeral's he's done? did he short your grandad on content or was this about the norm for him?)

Honestly, sounds to me like the Monsignor is basically phoning it in these days, at least as far as funerals go, but depending upon the size of his congregation that may be a necessary reality. Not all that surprising to me honestly, I've seen a number of incredibly bland funerals over the past decade or so, even in fairly small churches. I'm making an assumption (could easily be wrong) that a Monsignor has duties that extend over a larger flock than some of the churches I'm thinking of, so that makes a fill-in-the-blank service seem more likely to me (you may have to excuse any unfair prejudice about big flocks & smaller flocks I may have)

Heh, sadly, the answer is maybe?

Yeah, let it go.

Also I would suggest that a simpler, less full-court press approach probably could have gotten the result you wanted.

If i'm reading the OP right, and that email was first contact... you really came out with all guns blazing, allowing him to easily justify completely brushing you off.

Your email was WAYYYY over-the-top. Asking him to apologize to "each" of the children "profusely" is absurd, no matter how careless he was during the ceremony.

Saw this after I had finished my reply, so I'll just show my ignorance & ask a question: given the history, was there a family option for someone else to conduct the funeral? A lower ranking priest perhaps, or at least someone that your grandfather had a more pleasant relationship with?

I won't pretend to know the procedure for what I gather is a Catholic church (does anyone else use the title Monsignor?), so maybe this is something that is outside of the family's control, but in hindsight if you had options things might have gone better if you exercised them.

Neither option was right for me as I do not feel you are a whack job, nor would I phrase the yes option quite as strongly.

I think you are perfectly within your rights to request an acknowledgement from the Monsignor regarding the mispronunciation of your Aunts name, but would not have asked for a profuse apology. This is coming from someone not currently going through the emotions of losing someone dear to me though, so I can certainly understand your emotions being amped up.

There are two things in life many people want to be perfect and that is their wedding and the funeral(s) of their loved ones as anything going wrong in either situation is magnified many times over.

If I was in your shoes, (having written the same letter) after letting things cool down for another couple of days I would probably approach the monsignor and do the following.

Apologize if my letter offended him and explain it was an emotional time (which he of course he knows without explanation) and then maybe request he pull your aunt Ann aside (assuming she is a regular at the church) and acknowledge his slip up to her privately.

To me that would be a respectful thing to do on his part and addressing something like this face to face on your part will always come off better than a letter.

Just my opinion and YMMV since it seems like it bothered several of your family members. Again, the choices in the poll are too extreme for me to pick one, especially as delicate as emotions are when losing a loved one. (likely for your Monsignor as well)

I would have gone for a more low key approach if the effect on my family was such that I felt it needed to be addressed.

I would also like to offer my condolences for your loss.

uh, yeah, you did.

you're trying to put out a little fire with a lot of gasoline.

I cringe and disagree with a lot of what is said during speeches of this nature. These things happen, no hard feelings... don't make a mountain out of a molehill.

This is the exact line that had me re-read the OP a few times before commenting. After reading it I kept thinking I had misread or misinterpreted the email to that point, and went over it again to make sure i had it right.


This, to me, is what he should have been seeking in the first place.

Fuck that smug asshole.

I would press the issue, hard, until either he relents or he calls the police.

That prick does a million services, so he doesn't give a shit. Your Grandfather only gets one, so it should have been perfect.

Your

Strictly FWIW (and oddly enough perhaps) I didn't really pick up on that aspect of it.

Thanks for the opinions, and after some reflection, I did just offer an apology (to the Monsignor, and the poor church lady who bore my wrath).

For whatever it's worth, yes: Catholic, but no my Aunt doesn't practice anymore, so they likely wouldn't ever see each other again.

Believe me that those of you who already think I'm nuts don't want to see the reply I sent. I already took it back though, but I got some peace out of at least saying it.

As silly as it may sound, I don't consider myself religious but I try to adhere to the golden rule and generally consider the teachings of Christ the proverbial "good shit". I'm sure there's a defined term for that attitude, but I dunno what it is.

Am I going to hell?


I stopped after this line, wanting to see a 72 year old Pastor Ninja assassin with some throwing stars and a katana

SI

I would put myself in that same category. I definitely got the vibe, though, that you were taking digs at the church. not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that...but I think you got the reply you deserved, probably even the one you were looking for on some level.

You overreacted however when there is a Wedding, Funeral or Kid's Sporting event I expect some serious shit to go down from someone attending...

Unfortunately, in this case, you were the one. :)

Aww, it might as well be me this time. I guess the best I can say is at least most of the damage went to a priest at a church that nobody goes to anymore, and it'll probably wash off his back.



...until the clergy killers show up at his door

IMO if you didn't raise a stink when they crucified him, then it sounds pretty hypocritical to complain about this other stuff.

Clergy Killers offers remedial strategies for pastors and congregations who want to protect themselves against the abuse of parishioners with personality disorders, mental illnesses, and mean streaks in situations that go well beyond mere church conflict.

Was kind of hoping the guy was claiming to be a trained assassin.

So basically he was saying you had a personality disorder/mental illness/mean streak.

Nice.

Ewwww, reading the descriptions/reviews of that book at Amazon didn't exactly make me feel any better.

It's probably less than professional for a pastor to actually MENTION that book, but it's the clergy version of shoptalk....I've heard tons of stories over the years (way, way, beyond this scenario, which is quite mild), about the kind of stuff pastors face in their day-to-day jobs. It's a coping mechanism. I mean, you're dealing with people in the context of these very personal events in their lives, and there's a lot of irrational emotion and insanity (not referring to thesloppy there, just talking generally). Just like the gallows humor that police and people working at the morgue might have. I understand why they have that gallows humor, but it's best to keep it in-house.

I picked up on it. As the son of a pastor who was fully en-churched for decades, you notice when someone isn't, bu tries to sound like they are.

Might have been classier than the route he chose (now that I know the book is).

I have to say that the reference - now that I understand it - reinforces my gut reaction that he's just phoning stuff in at this point. I really don't have any respect for the guy at all after that crack to be honest, I've never really seen that as a job where you get to be a whiny bitch to the customer (even when the customer is being difficult).

edit to add: If he thought the notes he'd gotten to that point were nasty, he'd have loved the one I'd have written to his boss (and to his bosses boss). That his, his immediate superiors, not his "Boss" ;)

Yep, after seeing the book he referenced I conclude that Monsignor is a bigger prick than you had painted him and deserves whatever wrath you are able to throw his way.

Yeah, as I made mention to earlier, I wouldn't be surprised if this dude considered my Grandad the absolute definition of all that negative conflict/political stuff (some of his closest family certainly did)....but I'd also agree with you that it looks like the book is actually meant to be read by the pastor and used to diffuse conflict, rather than as a passive aggressive question of my mental health.

Geez, next funeral maybe just hire an actor from the local improv so he gets every line right. (just responding to the last couple of posts tearing this guy apart).

"God has Mercy, I don't!"


(to borrow from the badass priest in Machete)

At this point, I'd think I'd have more confidence in the sincerity of the dinner theater bit player.

"I once choked a chupacabra to death with my own bare hands for not saying grace,"
(to borrow from Sir Todd Bridges in Howlin' For You)

If the priority is smooth presentation, that would be a smart move. A pastor can mean well, can be sincere, can have his heart in it, can do his best, but still flub a line or two (and piss a few people off) over 100+ funerals/weddings a year.

I envision Church Lady bringing the matter to the Monsignors attention, asking him rhetorically "Isn't that special?"

His response has a lot more to do with my questions about him than the flub, something I kind of assumed would be obvious.

Yep, but you have the opportunity to choose your words more carefully in an e-mail response. And when your reply to a frustrated customer is "I've got a book for dealing with wackos like you" I don't exactly think he is trying to meet sloppy halfway.

Ya, hence the "(and piss a few people off)" I annoyingly edited in there after your response. He could have handled that a bit better, I'm just saying I get it, especially when you reach 70+ and speak a little more freely about what's on your mind. Regardless, none of the back and forth should overshadow the memory of the deceased, or the celebration of a married couple. Bigger picture and whatnot.

I thought his response was pretty restrained but I know a lot of Lutheran pastors. :) (Edit: Maybe they're more ornery than average)

I think his response could even have contained the same sentences, in a different order, and it wouldn't have upset me as much. The whole email is kinda sneaky disrespectful....like notice he doesn't use anybody's name, says he has no idea what he called my aunt (even though it was clearly in the email), the title of the email is just 'funeral', he refers me to the book immediately before saying anything else, toots his own horn for a bit, and then finally tells me to apologize to my relatives, because he's preparing for two other funerals. Like, he could seriously have said the exact same thing, but put the apology first, and it wouldn't have made me half as angry, and putting it last makes it pretty much useless.....though admittedly, I went in guns blazing, and probably intent on picking a fight, as has been pointed out.

I think Abe is onto something here, too. I'm also the son of a pastor, and my dad used to get requests to do weddings and funerals all the time from people who had gone to various churches he was at when they were like 10 y.o., then had stopped attending church altogether for 30 years or whatever, then when they had a special event, were all bent because they weren't given special treatment in the "church of their youth". I think you may have gotten the back hand of that.

I'm not sure from your story if your family isn't active in this church anymore, or if it's just you, but if it's the whole family...then, yeah, there's some (unwarranted, but natural) condescension that seeps in even with the most conscientious of pastors. There's very much an entitlement mindset in American churches of "I don't want to be a member, support what you're doing, or really even believe what you believe, but I want to be treated like it, dammit!"

And honestly, it's the unchurched who are about 1000x more likely to sit around making claims that pastors aren't following in Jesus' footsteps or are otherwise failing in their religious obligations...which has always baffled me out of the set of folks whose literate religious education was frozen somewhere around the age of 12 and everything they've learned subsequently about the clergy, theology and particular denominational doctrine has been from television and the Exorcist movies. Just like NFL coaches who get bombarded by the idiot opinions of the loudmouths in the stands, smart pastors let that sort of thing roll off their backs.

(My dad, in his professional capacity, would never say this sort of thing, you understand. He would never have answered your e-mail the way this guy did. He would have undoubtedly apologized, but it wouldn't have been profusely, nor would it have been to every one of the children.)

I mean, at the end of the day, one of the things you have to keep in mind is that in most protestant denominations -- can't speak specifically about Catholicism, as I'm not catholic -- the pastors are doing funerals for unchurched/uninterested folk and feel like they're doing the family a polite but meaningless service even with the most generic praise, because the assumption is that even as they're speaking, the poor slob is sliding down the chute to burning in hell because they were unsaved at the moment of death.[*]

* Please note: I'm not laying claim to this belief, but as the son of a pastor, who has heard pastors talk shop for years and years, this is a pretty common ethical conundrum they wrestle with. My apologies if I've phrased any of this is a way people find offensive.

FWIW I don't think that's the case here, because although none of his offspring were all that devoted, my grandfather was ridiculously devoted to that church, to the point that as, noted earlier, he has several sculptures on the church grounds, and I can only assume his financial contributions were equal. To his credit the pastor said he knew my Grandad to the point of where he sat every Sunday, but that was about as specific as the service got.


I think that is a totally fair statement, and I am totally guilty of that kind of hypocritical judgment at many times....which is why I try to vocalize/judge-people-against those kind of obviously convenient beliefs as little as I can. That said, I think the basic tenets of Christ's teachings don't necessarily require much more than a 12-year old's understanding, and that some clergy do lose grasp on those tenets a bit whether through the minutae/politics of their particular doctrine and/or church, or just doing a damn tough and relatively thankless job for so long. Does that sound fair, or am I talking out of my ass (again)?

You're right. I missed that in the first post. Not sure how I missed it when re-reading it, but I did. That puts a different spin on both the error and the Monsignor's reaction. Like Jon indicates above, that sounds like a combination of mailing it in and just pure cantankerousness.



It's probably not even a vaguely fair statement in retrospect. I've got one of those wives who didn't grow up religious, rarely set foot in church, couldn't tell you what's in the Bible, but she's the first person to criticize people's theology based on what she "knows" is in the Bible and takes deep satisfaction in anticipating all of the surprised looks Christians will have at the pearly gates when they see who gets in and who doesn't. I saw plenty of that sort of thing as a kid, and probably tend to project it onto the wider population more than is accurate.

You're completely right -- given the whole "faith like a child's" bit -- that a 12 y.o.'s understanding is more than sufficient. It's not supposed to be rocket science. Unfortunately, running any congregation of more than about 3 people and trying to keep everyone happy rapidly becomes like rocket science.

I am sorry that your Grandfather didn't get the sort of service of he deserved. I can sympathize with a pastor making flubs, but this guy handled it like an asshat.