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Originally Posted by ISiddiqui
So at what point are some on this thread just going to come out and say that all poor people are lazy and/or gaming the system? It seems to be danced around - talking about personal responsibility and impulse control while minimizing lack of education, talking about not taking advantage of universal public education while minimizing that schools in the US are funded by local property taxes and therefore poor areas have much less money for public school than richer areas. It's just all beating around the bush right? It's just code words for saying all the poor are lazy or irresponsible or cheating things - its all their fault, right?
The chart showing the very low levels of social mobility in the US (look at how low they are when you compare it to other industrialized countries) was also minimized. Makes it easier to blame the victims, doesn't it? I'm not saying there aren't lazy, incompetent, or cheating poor folks, but similar amounts exist among the middle class and rich. (Let's put it in baseball terms, using an example we've all heard, involving the Yankees and smaller payroll/market teams - it isn't that the Yankees never make mistakes. It's that when they do make a mistake, it doesn't ruin them. However, when a smaller team makes a mistake it may indeed ruin them, because they can't use their money to mitigate it)
Ignoring societal circumstances and policies that keep folks in places where they start out from is just being ignorant or deliberately looking the other way because someone else is comfortable.
Fucking threads like this make me want to be a Socialist.
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Since I am the only one in the recent history to mention a correlation to the public education system, I am assuming this is, at least in part, directed at me.
I hate labeling a human being, it is inherently flawed in my opinion. Because we are always free thinking and subject to acts that are out of character (in either direction) at any time. To that end, I never said anyone was lazy or bad.
However, I do think as a species we are all creatures of habit. How else do you explain upper and upper middle class people frequently living within a relative small distance of where they were raised. All other things being equal we will stay where we are UNLESS something drives us to change our position. TO me it's not about laziness as much as emotional inertia. Change is hard and takes a lot of want to, not everyone wants to change.
I will flip your Yankees analogy a bit, in my experience (and granted that is limited to one man's personal experiences) as long as someone is truly motivated to change their situation - whatever that situation may be poverty, obesity, ignorance you name it - as long as they are motivated and determined they will succeed to some level. Not saying every poor kid can become Bill Gates, but every poor kid that tries can become middle class (whatever that is). Will it be harder for them than a kid born into a middle class home. Yes. That sucks but its reality. We all have our own cross to bear. It can be your excuse or provide you perspective and give you experiences that make you successful. You make it sound as if one failure ruins an impoverished person, and while that may be true. When you have a net worth of $5, when you lose everything it isn't nearly as big of a set back.
I really in my heart, believe there is a lot of hand wringing in this thread about helping people many of whom dont want help. Now I said many, certainly not all, and we need to do everything we can to have a hand waiting there to help those who dont want to climb. But a sad reality (to lots of folks ITT) is many people have different values than you. Many people value fun and fellowship more than financial success. Many people do not think they have a moral obligation to pay for certain things. Many people do feel entitled to the latest advertised gizmos as if it is a birth right. Not all, many. And you have to affect change by influencing the many.
And before I get an arrow slung at me about imposing my middle class views and not knowing what its like I will re-itterate what I've shared on this board before.
I am a product of a single mother who was married more times than I can count. I was raised in public housing and in shelters. Then I was homeless for the majority of a school year. Went through a couple foster homes, then through a juvenile detention center to a "reform/boarding" school. I've lived both lives. I've stolen to eat. I've also lived a life where my personal thrift was the only obstacle to my every whim. I get it. The only reason my circumstances chanced was a singular laser like focus that one day I would make my own way. Not everyone has that focus. That's ok. But let's not pretend that every human being wants to eat their veggies and fund their IRAs. Lots of people of all socio-economic classes want to do what feeds their pleasure receptors. What is fun. Eat what tastes good. Spend every penny they make on the trinket of the day (and that trinket changes with class level for sure. In the upper its a 6 figure car, in the lowest it may be a certain piece of clothing or electronic or whatever)..We can't regulate and mandate the same outcome because some do not want that outcome. What we need to focus on is helping the ones who want it, and will work for it, and making sure we show others the benefit of their choices and motivate them similarly.
I recognize my last few sentences doesnt feed the hungry today, thats not so much what I am talking about. It is going to take a different program to address the crisis, than to fix the causation. That is a two pronged approach for sure.
Anyway Ive rambled enough, and I probably just clog the thread up because I dont want to argue tired talking head radio political points so I will bow out, but I dont think either extreme will ever accept the other nor will either extreme ever be successful. Not all poor people are lazy and not all of them are industrious guys held down by the system. Some of each certainly populate the class as well as a wide swath of folks in between. BTW not all rich people are hard working and not all are lucky some of each occupy that class as well.