[miami_fan]

There are some groups that do behave this way to be sure. There are others who do not. A major point of emphasis within many denominations in the believer's accountability first and foremost to God, not the church, or the leader of that church, etc. There are all manner of religious groups and it's simply not accurate to lump them all under the same umbrella like this.

Is there a point when the groups who do not behave that way express those differences against those that do behave that way? Or are they cool with whatever happens because well at least the group that does want to keep people "stupid and obedient and filling their coffers share their many of their values. If it is the latter then it makes sense that they are all grouped under the same umbrella, no? I don't think anyone is denying that there are distinctions between religious groups. I just wish those groups made it more clear what those distinctions are.

My main point here is simply that people are people. We don't have the right to relegate them to second-class status simply because they are religious, which is exactly what you do if you say their opinions have no place in the public square. People in general - not all of them, but in general - want what's best for society. They just disagree on what that is, and this is not a phenomenon isolated to the religious. There are political demagogues of all stripes who could care less about the facts for completely non-religious reasons. We are all biased due to our worldview, whether it's religious, atheist, agnostic, whatever it may be. Religious people don't have some corner market on being irrational - indeed some are religious precisely because their understanding of logic and science brought them to that point of belief.

I think this is where the frustrations lies. Are we grouping all religious people under one umbrella or not? I do not believe anyone is relegating anyone who is religious to second class status. I do not believe that their opinions have no place in the public square. I think people do not want to made to be second class citizens to a certain group's religious beliefs.