[CU Tiger]

Rainmaker,
I'm not trying to attack you or single you out, but I also want tohave a productive conversation here. I learn a lot from folks on FOFC, especially folks I dont agree with. So I am responding again...

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'm sorry. I didn't mean that weapons are necessarily better [snip] What I mean is civilians now have their hands on more powerful weapons than they used to. The AR-15 Sporter was a commercial failure for decades. People were using handguns and shotguns for home protection. But since the 90's, that has changed.

Point number 1 is your specific quote was

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Weapons are more powerful and have been pushed harder.

I think its dishonest, at best, to say "Weapons are more powerful" and then say "I didnt mean weapons are better" when thats precisely what you said.


Why am I drawing the distinction so hard? Because I think it points directly to one of my main points. The weapons aren't better, and they aren't more accessible. (You make the point that it was available and a commercial failure - I.E. people didnt want it) yet people want them more. They buy them more.

Why is that?

What has driven the demand for it?
That's one of my real curiosities. I mean the NRA is an easy scape-goat. (Full disclosure Ive said here numerous times I am a former NRA member, even paid for an NRA lifetime membership, but I have disassociated several years ago including formally sending them notice of removal from their database request over divergences of opinion)...But is the NRA really solely to blame for influence on all people? Or do we need to examine cultural, media, and societal influences.

What makes some think the AR is suddenly cool? What makes others think they suddenly need a "better" home defense weapon (by the way I'll one back to this in a minute...I think their are better strategic choices)

Originally Posted by RainMaker

If you look at the evolution of mass shootings, they've shifted almost exclusively to AR-15 models.

I agree with your larger point though some will argue some semantics, it isnt pertinent to this discussion. What I dont understand is why? The AR15/ M-4 platform isnt the only military style weapon, hell Id posit it isnt even among the 10 best. So why has it taken off? Why do almost every FPS platform base either all or a majority of their weapons on the platform. Is it great marketing and if so who is the genius behind it?


I am a self professed gun nut. I enjoy them. I enjoy shooting. I enjoy the mechanical and engineering aspects of their construction. For obvious reasons I dont like to talk specifics about firearm ownership, but lets state it this way. I have 2 main hobbies - cars and guns. I own 5 "pleasure" vehicles outside of my families commuter vehicles. I have more money value in guns than I do in cars. I have numerous AR/M4 and other similar variant platform guns. My home defense weapon of choice if a pump action shotgun. It is more effective, more reliable and honestly (though inconsequential to my decision) cheaper than an AR piece. So why do so many make the "wrong" choice?

BTW most any truly trained combat expert would make the same choice I make.

So why the AR popularity?

Originally Posted by RainMaker

We are talking about the NRA. An organization that has thrived in its white supremacist beliefs. It's highly relevant to the rise in militarization of civilians in this country. It's been the center of their marketing plan for decades.

Their marketing has almost exclusively centered around arming yourselves against "criminal gangbangers" and "inner city thugs" (there words, not mine). Although they do occasionally step out to insinuate you should kill federal officers. Just read through LaPierre's speeches.

They have fought against gun rights when it comes to black people (open carry in California for instance). Been silent when black legal gun owners are mowed down (Philando Castile). Heck, how long has racist apartheid supporter Ted Nugent been on their board?

Without even debating a bit of the hyperbole here...where I take major issue with your comments, and the rhetoric that prevails at FOFC, is the false equivalency of NRA=all gun advocates.
I can line up numerous analogies for you but in short the NRA is the most visible, but it is far from the voice of all 2A advocates. I personally financially support 3 gun and 2A rights advocacy organizations. NRA isnt and never again will be one of them. GOA and USCCA are both much better run organizations. more aligned with my viewpoints. So first assumign tha all gun advicates are equivalent to the NRA is incorrect.



But secondly We are talking about mass shootings, how about telling me how many mass shooters were NRA members?



So the discussion is about mass shooting and you rant about the NRA and how evil it is, when t A) doesnt represnt all gun owners and B) doesnt represent the perpetrators in most of the cases.



Its just a red herring to obfuscate the issue in my opinion.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I agree with you here. One thing I'd add culturally is that I think we shifted from serial killers to mass shooters. There was this fascination with serial killers decades ago and you really don't hear a lot about them nowadays. Are there less or do we just not find them interesting anymore?

I dont think we are less interested in them. The recent success of the Bundy documentaries seems to point to that. I think that technology has made it harder for anyone to perpetrate crimes uncaught for an extended period of time today

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Who do you think is buying these guns in mass quantities? The marketing of these companies is comical. Take a look at some of these sites:

hxxps://www.rainierarms.com/ is featuring guns around a movie about a world-class assassin. hxxps://store.ar15.com is selling Punisher shirts. Look at the name of these brands on the sites and their logos and marketing. This shit isn't targeting the average hunter or family man looking for a little self-defense. It's a marketing ploy to make the regular Joe feel like some kind of warrior for purchasing these weapons they'll never need to use in a real life situation.

Again I think you have some stereotype prejudices that I just dont relate to. Sport shooting, competition shooting and tactical shooting groups while they share some commonality with hunters they are distinctly different and separate groups.
I am not a competition shooter. Have no real interest in it. But one of my best friends took it up recently and Ive went and cheered him on at a couple of recent comps. Much the same way you go watch a buddy play soccer, or ultimate or drone race or whatever...

Heck just go to Youtube and search up 3 gun competition or 'National Shooting Sports Foundation' I think you might be surprised.
Their participants (which the last comp I went to for my buddy they had 240 entrants in a small town in rural NC) look much more like cross fit competitors than the character you are describing. I mean dude shoots with former college football and baseball players, current and former Marines, Navy, Police etc. he idea that the only people who buy guns are weak or feel the need to com
pensate is just wrong.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I have no issue with most guns either. I'm not a ban it kind of person. Just find that stuff pathetic. And I find the people who feel they need to carry inside a Starbucks while they pick up a latte to be some of the biggest pussies around. Not everyone is like that, but I've always felt that most of those hardcore gun guys who need laser dots on their AR-15 to be compensating for how weak they feel they are.

Again I am not sure what jades your viewpoint. I dont live where you live and see or experience hat you see or experience.
I would never give Starbucks a dime of my money, unless my daughter is with me and wants a Frappucino and then we go there. So I dont know the crowd or the norm there.
I will say this, when I get dressed and leave the house I am armed. It is more common for me to be without underwear than it is for me to be without a weapon. But you will stand right beside me in any line in any store and never know it. The guys who feel the need to open carry or show off...yeah they are attention whores and I have no use for them either.



The true conceal carry guys you are around, you dont know they carry.



And speaking just for me, you wont know unless I or my family is threatened. Period. I would watch someone I dont know get killed without drawing even if I was armed. I carry for the protection of myself and my family only I feel like that is my responsibility to do so.I carry whether it is legal or not. And I will not reveal that fact unless it is absolutely necessary. And I will never hold someone at gun point. If I draw I will fire every time, without exception. And will fire until I am out of ammo or the threat is confirmed eliminated. It is an absolute last resort. Period.