[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by nol

That means nothing relative to how he went on to play. He played like half the games and sat out of back-to-backs in the 2nd season. More importantly, he dropped from 9th to 29th in RAPM even though he was selectively only playing in games where he was well-rested. That's at best a fringe all-star player after year 1, compared to Pippen who was basically last year's version of Kawhi but better at passing.

I don't think his game dropped that dramatically in the course of 5 months. I think the more likely scenario is his dropoff statistically had more to do with his new role and inability for the players to mesh with each other on the court.

Originally Posted by nol

Luc Longley was an above-average center for that day. Steve Kerr is another guy who teams today would be all over if they saw a player with his stats.

Longley was not above-average. Not in a league with so many quality Centers.

For all these great role players that made up the Bulls, isn't it strange that none of them went on to be successful anywhere else outside of Horace?

Originally Posted by nol

You underrate Grant relative to Bosh in the same way you underrate Pippen relative to Wade. Both players were substantially better defenders (and I don't say that lightly because Bosh was a borderline all-defense team member), and Grant is a deserving Hall of Famer as well. He rated as a top 10-20 player when he left the Bulls for the Magic as well, so it's not like MJ was just propping him up.

Here's Bosh's rank in RAPM/RPM by year, starting with the year before he joined the Heat: 9th, 14th, 21st, 56th, 44th. Then of course the following season the Heat missed the playoffs even though they signed an above-average SF in Luol Deng to replace LeBron. Bosh's heart issue cutting his career short overshadowed that he had been substantially on the decline as well.

Bosh was incredible his last few years in Toronto. A legitimate top-10 player who you could run your offense through. It's not a knock on Horace who is a very good player. Just that if you were given an NBA franchise and given your choice of building around Horace Grant or Chris Bosh, you'd take Chris Bosh in a heartbeat.

I understand a lot of players saw their stats decline when joining up with Lebron earlier in his career. But perhaps there's a constant in that scenario instead of assuming players were zapped of talent over a 5-month offseason.

Originally Posted by nol

This gets convoluted with the LeBron having been so good for 10+ years that it's been impossible to surround him with players so bad that his team doesn't get the 1st or 2nd seed. As a result, he plays bad teams in the first round: you would have to be deluding yourself to think that the championship Bulls teams were playing anyone any good in the first round either. Other than that, you're taking the fact that Jordan didn't have as many other ways to affect the game when his shot wasn't falling (he was still a great passer and rebounder for his position but not LeBron by any means, and he couldn't slide over and guard an opposing big man who was giving the Bulls trouble) and as a result, the Bulls would occasionally lose games in the Eastern Conference playoffs and holding that against LeBron. The 50+ win teams LeBron has swept through in recent years are no better or worse than the average 90s Pacers or Knicks team: the only difference is that you were young enough to look up to Patrick Ewing or Reggie Miller but don't feel the same way about Kyle Lowry or Paul George.

That late 90's Pacers team was really good. Better than anyone Lebron has faced since the 2010-2011 Bulls team. The 90's Knicks teams were good too. Putting these recent Raptors or Pacers teams anywhere near those teams is silly. That 92-93 Knicks team had an SRS 3 points higher than those that you are mentioning. Same with that 97-98 Pacers team.

First round series are kind of pointless to argue because neither was really threatened in them. I still say that early 90's Hawks team was better than anyone Lebron went up against in the first round in his Championship years. Same with that Bullets team.

I don't really think these are arguments for or against either player though. You can't control who you face in the playoffs.