[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

I think the United States of America maintaining the moral high ground actually accomplishes quite a bit, domestically if nothing else.

I wish I had this quote from you back when we were talking about rendition and torture.

As for any statement of ours making things worse... as it stands the regime is building up its nuclear program and has threatened to wipe our staunchest ally in the Middle East off the map. What do you see as "worse"?

"Worse" is them actually doing it. I seriously doubt Iran has ever been, certainly in the past 10 years, a hair-trigger away from invading/bombing Israel. I mean, come on now, no half-way rational state has though an outright attack on Israel was a good idea since 1967. It's a very easy way to end up without a military.

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

They don't need ammunition. Do you think they've been giving the Iranian people the full and unadulterated truth about America for the past 30 years?

As has been pointed out, millions of Iranians have learned about the West all on their own, including the (probably millions) who have travelled to the West for vacation, work and/or study. This isn't North Korea we're talking about here.

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Saying anything on the subject also gives us jack shit, beyond maybe some vague delusion that we had a positive influence on the outcome.

Agreed 100% with Jon's assessment, and, to reiterate, this is what I've been saying all along. This has to be an Iranian revolution, and they need to directly create the government they want. If, after it's all over, there's something we can do for them, and they ask for our help, we should engage with them as wholeheartedly as we can. But not until.

It's amazing to me that people continue to have this delusion that the U.S. can invade countries, install governments, and then easily transition to the local populace. It doesn't work because the local people don't believe the government is theirs. And often they're right. Witness the problems in Iraq & Afghanistan. Witness the failure of legitimacy in Vietnam.

You know, people want a government that's theirs, even if it's a shit government. Gone are the days when you can set up a puppet regime and repress the hell out of the populace and not worry that the resentment you cause gets that puppet government thrown out 20-30 years later. I think I see our thinking on the foreign policy front changing on this, and moving more to a paradigm of lower-key support and engaging the local power structures.

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

Hm. It's a different world from 1989, for sure.

Agreed 100% with Wolfpack's analysis of this vs. Tienanmen Square.

Originally Posted by JPhillips

? What Democrat was seriously advocating war with Iran in 2003?

Perhaps Cam's suggesting that some who said "well, if you're going to use that criteria, you should invade Iran instead" was an argument for invading Iran. I've long held that the criteria that was used for us to invade Iraq should have had us invading North Korea and Pakistan long before Iran.