Israeli-Hamas War (Oct 2023)

[RainMaker]

Another odd question is if Israel wants a ceasefire, why are they funding primaries against any candidate here that calls for a ceasefire?

[albionmoonlight]

FWIW, I tend to avoid "silent majority" type arguments. It is way too easy to fall into "We the People believe . . . " traps where you just assume that everyone must surely agree with you and your friends.

But here I swear it feels right. Pretty much everyone I talk to in person thinks

(1) Hamas is an evil terrorist organization
(2) Israel has the right to defend itself and rescue hostages
(3) Israel is killing too many innocent civilians as it does number 2.

But none of the screaming voices I hear online can hold those three ideas in their head at once.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

FWIW, I tend to avoid "silent majority" type arguments. It is way too easy to fall into "We the People believe . . . " traps where you just assume that everyone must surely agree with you and your friends.

But here I swear it feels right. Pretty much everyone I talk to in person thinks

(1) Hamas is an evil terrorist organization
(2) Israel has the right to defend itself and rescue hostages
(3) Israel is killing too many innocent civilians as it does number 2.

But none of the screaming voices I hear online can hold those three ideas in their head at once.

I tend to avoid all political talk outside of at home with my wife and a couple places on the internet, but but this is where my wife and I both are. Seems fairly straightforward in this regard but the internet shows us otherwise.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

FWIW, I tend to avoid "silent majority" type arguments. It is way too easy to fall into "We the People believe . . . " traps where you just assume that everyone must surely agree with you and your friends.

But here I swear it feels right. Pretty much everyone I talk to in person thinks

(1) Hamas is an evil terrorist organization
(2) Israel has the right to defend itself and rescue hostages
(3) Israel is killing too many innocent civilians as it does number 2.

But none of the screaming voices I hear online can hold those three ideas in their head at once.

yeah right? Like one FB friend does nothing but show videos of palestines which contain stats. Nothing about anything else. The whole college campus thing seems similar. Is the protesting on college campus thing a huge deal? Who knows. The internet sure thought it was. Looking at things in a vacuum is unhelpful as well as it doesn't really make people care about your cause. It's like the ultratrans supporters yelling at me in facebook and reddit. They START the argument then if you say ANYTHING they yell even more with other people passive aggressive liking them and downvoting you.

[Flasch186]

Hamas leadership understands that civilian casualties help their cause and are accused of putting civilians in harms way

Hamas also claiming that they don’t put civilians in harms way

Is a tough circle to square


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

FWIW, I tend to avoid "silent majority" type arguments. It is way too easy to fall into "We the People believe . . . " traps where you just assume that everyone must surely agree with you and your friends.

But here I swear it feels right. Pretty much everyone I talk to in person thinks

(1) Hamas is an evil terrorist organization
(2) Israel has the right to defend itself and rescue hostages
(3) Israel is killing too many innocent civilians as it does number 2.

But none of the screaming voices I hear online can hold those three ideas in their head at once.

It really is straight forward, but not being a zealot for either side either makes you a pro-genocide baby killer, or completely anti-Semitic. Being critical of Israel doesn't mean you hate Jews, and believing that Israel has a right to exist doesn't mean you hate Palestinians.

[RainMaker]

I think the issue is more that the government has chosen their side and is funding the genocide with our tax dollars. I would not support funding Hamas either and didn't agree with us supporting them over the PA.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

FWIW, I tend to avoid "silent majority" type arguments. It is way too easy to fall into "We the People believe . . . " traps where you just assume that everyone must surely agree with you and your friends.

But here I swear it feels right. Pretty much everyone I talk to in person thinks

(1) Hamas is an evil terrorist organization
(2) Israel has the right to defend itself and rescue hostages
(3) Israel is killing too many innocent civilians as it does number 2.

But none of the screaming voices I hear online can hold those three ideas in their head at once.

I agree with 1-3 and I'd offer up #4 for consideration ...

(4) Both sides have committed a lot of war crimes

[miked]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think the issue is more that the government has chosen their side and is funding the genocide with our tax dollars. I would not support funding Hamas either and didn't agree with us supporting them over the PA.

I mean, we and others fund the hell out of Hamas. Every bit of ais sent to Gaza is taken by Hamas. You think they are taking the financial aid from the world and using it to buy food and medical care for their people? If you do, you're insane, they are using aid to buy weapons. Weapons that even pre-October 7th were being used too fire rockets into Israel daily. This is not a peaceful group, they are the equivalent of Al Qaeda.

I understand you believe they are justified because they live under Israeli control (which they do not really, since they do with their money and people as they please). But there is no winning for Israel either, it's not like they can formally recognize Hamas/Gaza, and they can't let people just go back and forth at will because we've seen the bus stop bombings and more. I'm not actually sure there is a way out as long as Hamas runs Gaza and the other arab countries do not do a thing. Egypt is not lining up to help them, in fact their border crossing may be rougher.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by miked

they are the equivalent of Al Qaeda.

This is where the mask comes off. They're polar opposites with completely different goals. They mostly despise each other. Similar to people who compare the Taliban to ISIS. You can't clump every Arab into a single group.

Regarding the other stuff, aid was mostly being handled by large organizations with strong reputations. Doctors without Borders, UNRWA, Red Cross, Save the Children, etc. If their aid was being stolen, I'm sure they would have expressed that. The biggest threat to aid was targeted assassinations by the IDF which are quite common.

I can't find any evidence that Hamas is stealing aid and selling it (who would they even sell it to?). They don't need to do that either because Qatar just drops off suitcases of cash for them when they need it (and Israel has helped them out over the years too). If you want to hurt Hamas, you target Qatar. But we can't because they give our defense industry billions for weapons which I guess makes you an ally.

Originally Posted by miked

I understand you believe they are justified because they live under Israeli control (which they do not really, since they do with their money and people as they please).

This part is also really weird. People in Gaza absolutely live under Israeli control. It's a concentration camp by every definition. Israel controls who and what enters the prison down to the calorie (not kidding, they count the calories). Every resource from clean water to access to the internet is controlled by Israel. The idea that people living in Gaza have any autonomy is pure fiction.

If you want to learn more about Hamas and how it came to be, I'd highly recommend Radio War Nerd's history of the group. John Dolan is a professor and probably one of the most knowledgeable Americans on the Middle East where he lived and taught for some time. It's mostly the early years, so doesn't cover modern events. But you get an idea for how they came about and what their position is.

https://player.fm/series/war-nerd-ra...404-hamas-pt-1

https://player.fm/series/war-nerd-ra...pt-2-1988-2006

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Regarding the other stuff, aid was mostly being handled by large organizations with strong reputations. Doctors without Borders, UNRWA, Red Cross, Save the Children, etc. If their aid was being stolen, I'm sure they would have expressed that. The biggest threat to aid was targeted assassinations by the IDF which are quite common.

I can't find any evidence that Hamas is stealing aid and selling it (who would they even sell it to?).[/url]

There's evidence but probably not enough to convince anyone it's "systemic" right now. I think it's fair to expect some "irregularities" here and there.

re: Red Cross. There was an article on why Red Cross doesn't do more to see the hostages. The bottom line is they are in no position to make any demands and they want to stay neutral so they don't make any negative statements against Hamas. But yeah, the reason why Red Cross hasn't visited the hostages is Hamas, not their lack of willingness.

re: UNRWA. Fire everyone including leadership team. Replace leadership team with one that is truly neutral, don't get into politics, establish clear cut rules for neutrality, and rehire & rebuild. Maybe talk to Red Cross (see above) on how they try to maintain neutrality, hire right people that don't publicly participate or condone Oct 7-like terrorism, all the while provided needed services. I understand it's hard to not go "native" when they hire from the "native population", so maybe get some idealistic western college kids to do a gap year in Gaza to help out.

i24NEWS

Hamas, the terrorist group controlling the Gaza Strip, attempted to divert a significant humanitarian aid shipment intended for Gaza from Jordan, according to statements made by a U.S. State Department spokesman.

Matthew Miller, speaking during a press briefing, revealed that Hamas managed to hijack the aid shipment earlier in the week. However, the aid was ultimately recovered and returned to the organization responsible for its distribution.

"The UN is in the process of recovering the goods, or has already recovered them, but Hamas committed an unacceptable act in diverting this aid," Miller emphasized, highlighting the gravity of the situation. He further noted that the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) is expected to issue a statement condemning the incident imminently.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

This part is also really weird. People in Gaza absolutely live under Israeli control. It's a concentration camp by every definition. Israel controls who and what enters the prison down to the calorie (not kidding, they count the calories). Every resource from clean water to access to the internet is controlled by Israel. The idea that people living in Gaza have any autonomy is pure fiction.

And now, per Paul Harvey, for the rest of the story

Regarding calorie counting, it was back in the 2007 blockade. If it's happening now, provide your non-tiktok and non-X sources. I would like to read more about it.

Israel calculated the number of calories Palestinians would need to avoid malnutrition under its blockade of the Gaza Strip, according to a study which the Supreme Court forced the government to release.
"It was part of a research paper that came up in two discussions and that we never made use of," Defense Ministry official Guy Inbar said on Wednesday after the document was published by Gisha, an Israeli human rights group that petitioned to receive it.

Release of the document, presented in January 2008, shed new light on the thinking that helped to shape the blockade that Israel tightened in 2007 after the Gaza Strip was seized by the Hamas Islamist movement.

Palestinians described the restrictions, which drew international criticism and were eased in 2010, as collective punishment stifling their economy.

The study, "Food Consumption in the Gaza Strip - The Red Lines", estimated the required daily calorie intake in the territory at 2,279 per person.

The document said that "in order to maintain the basic fabric of life" in the area, Israel would allow in 106 trucks with food and other essential goods every day. Gisha said some 400 trucks delivered goods to Gaza before the blockade.

re: Israel controlling who enters & exits prison. We forget the role Egypt plays and, of course, the lack of significant support from any other Arab country besides Iran/Lebanon besides words. I'm pretty sure Egypt views Hamas as a threat also (along with Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Kuwait) and hence the strict restrictions. Maybe if they promise to stay peaceful and not align with a country's internal enemy (Egypt), not try cause internal strife (Lebanon), overthrow countries that invite you in (Jordan), root for another country that invades another Arab country (Kuwait) or slaughter 1,100+ and kidnap 200+ people (Israel) .... the attitudes could change?

Rafah Border Crossing - Wikipedia

After the Israeli disengagement in 2005, the monthly average number of entries and exits through Rafah Crossing reached about 40,000. After the capture of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit in June 2006, the crossing was closed 76% of the time and after Hamas' takeover of the Gaza Strip it was closed permanently except for infrequent limited openings by Egypt.[18]

From June 2010 to January 2011, the monthly average number of exits and entries through Rafah reached 19,000. After May 2011, when Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak was replaced with Mohamed Morsi, the number grew to 40,000 per month. When Morsi was deposed by the army in July 2013, the Crossing was again almost completely shut down.

In August 2014, for the first time since the start of the Gaza blockade in 2007 Egypt allowed the United Nations World Food Programme (WFP) to bring food through the Rafah crossing. It provided food to feed around 150,000 people for 5 days.[19] In 2014, an average of 8,119 exits and entries of people were recorded at the crossing monthly. In September 2015, it was circa 3,300, while the Gaza population numbered 1.8 million people.[18] Between 24 October 2014 and September 2015, the crossing had been opened for only 34 days.[20]

For the Palestinians, they need to learn to live in the modern world and accept reality. Make peace, not going to get everything you want. West Bank, faults and all, is trying. Hamas in Gaza, not so much.

Just a moment...

If that were to happen, they would have nowhere in the Arab world to go, says former U.S. Ambassador Ryan Crocker. Despite public support for Palestinian rights, in truth nearly every Arab state has long viewed the Palestinians with “fear and loathing,” Crocker says. This is especially true of Egypt, which will continue to refuse to admit Palestinians from across the border, he says.