Edward Snowden Q&A

[Desnudo]

Pretty amazing discussion. The gov is going to have a hard time because he clearly has a plan, is articulate, and also clearly doesn't give a shit about what they might do to him.

Reddit has a better view than the guardian.

NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden live Q&A 11am ET/4pm BST : technology

[panerd]

As one of the board's resident conspiracy theorists I will probably get more eye rolls than I will positive responses but this guy doesn't seem "right". From what angle I am not sure but much like Julian Assange he just seems to be too articulate and has far too many answers. At least Assange had a journalism background. Maybe he is all he seems to be (and either way its great that he is waking some people up to the government surveillance state) but it just all seems really fishy.

Possibilities?
A) Legit who he says he is
B) Who he says he is but now getting help from another country
C) Foreign operative
D) CIA/NSA Disinformation
E) Someone powerful out to get Obama

I don't have an answer why right now on B-E but could come up with a list of possibilities.

[panerd]

Regardless I did like this answer though...

Initially I was very encouraged. Unfortunately, the mainstream media now seems far more interested in what I said when I was 17 or what my girlfriend looks like rather than, say, the largest program of suspicionless surveillance in human history.

[Young Drachma]

Meh fuck that guy.

[Desnudo]

Thanks for adding to the discussion

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Thanks for adding to the discussion

Seriously, he's a self-important asshole who doesn't care about anyone but himself under the guise of "doing it for the people." He's endangering a bevy of lives all under this false idea that he's exposing information that's going to make people ask hard questions about what the NSA and government have been doing and do.

Do I think it's a conversation we ought to have? You betcha. Do I think his antics have furthered that discussion? Not an iota.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by Young Drachma

Do I think his antics have furthered that discussion? Not an iota.

howso? there was zero discussion before because we didn't know of its existence. so whether you support what he did or not, he surely furthered the discussion, right?

edit:

Seriously, he's a self-important asshole who doesn't care about anyone but himself under the guise of "doing it for the people."

you talking about Snowden now, or every politician ever

[jeff061]

I can't think of any other way of furthering the discussion.

[rowech]

Nobody wanted to have the discussion because they assumed they weren't checking on just anybody they wanted to. People who aren't upset by this are simply naive.

[Young Drachma]

The difference is simple. You can expose government hypocrisy and still decry Snowden. He's a coward and a know-nothing who thinks he's a bigger linchpin to all of this than he is. But keep believing he's exposed something they didn't want you to know.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by Young Drachma

The difference is simple. You can expose government hypocrisy and still decry Snowden. He's a coward and a know-nothing who thinks he's a bigger linchpin to all of this than he is. But keep believing he's exposed something they didn't want you to know.

You're either not making sense or I need more caffeine.


Are you saying the NSA wanted this information leaked and be forced to testify and admit this program was going on? Or are you referring to a different "they"?

[cartman]

As I posted in the other thread, the PRISM project was budgeted for $20 million. If the NSA could implement a broad, catch-all program of data collection, mining and interpretation for only $20 million, then we are screwed anyway. The amount of press that PRISM has gotten far outweighs any actual impact it has on privacy.

[molson]

He's definitely sparked a discussion. I don't know how in-tune the discussion is with reality, but there's a discussion. Ultimately, he'll indirectly help establish that the programs are constitutional, once the knee-jerk media-seeking lawsuits all go down in flames. Policy-wise though, he's managed to open a big can of worms and get people really riled up, I'm sure we'll have more politicians at least pretend to cater to those concerns in upcoming elections. It's a issue people care about now. The Patriot Act has always been an issue people cared about generally, but this time it has more teeth because it's a specific application of it that really infuriates some people.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Young Drachma

The difference is simple. You can expose government hypocrisy and still decry Snowden. He's a coward and a know-nothing who thinks he's a bigger linchpin to all of this than he is. But keep believing he's exposed something they didn't want you to know.

This.

[dawgfan]

http://thedailybanter.com/2013/06/sn...ise-questions/

[JonInMiddleGA]

He deserves two rounds in the back of the head. Period.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

He deserves two rounds in the back of the head. Period.

in fairness to snowden, you basically feel that way about all people, from what i can tell.

[flounder]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

in fairness to snowden, you basically feel that way about all people, from what i can tell.

That's unfair. He doesn't feel that way about Tim Tebow.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

http://thedailybanter.com/2013/06/sn...ise-questions/

informative - i was also misled by taking some previous news stories face value.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

in fairness to snowden, you basically feel that way about all people, from what i can tell.

Or at least all treacherous vermin like this piece of crap.

If his actions aren't treason, I'm not sure there's really any point in the word remaining a part of the legal code, or perhaps even the English language.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by flounder

That's unfair. He doesn't feel that way about Tim Tebow.

What if Tim Tebow is behind it? Pop pop.

[dawgfan]

Here's another link of interest: http://m.usatoday.com/article/news/2428809

[Young Drachma]

Is Edward Snowden's story unravelling? Why the Guardian's scoop is looking a bit dodgy – Telegraph Blogs

[rowech]

I think one of the more frightening things in this story is how much someone who works for three months is privy to right from the start.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by rowech

I think one of the more frightening things in this story is how much someone who works for three months is privy to right from the start.

but shouldn't be too surprising for any of us who work in IT, and especially for any of us who work for gov't IT.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

but shouldn't be too surprising for any of us who work in IT, and especially for any of us who work for gov't IT.

I was going to type the same thing. Even low level shlubs get more access to sensitive material than VPs do. I believe execs don't realize this, while most IT management see it as a borderline necessity that's difficult to "fix" and look the other way.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I was going to type the same thing. Even low level shlubs get more access to sensitive material than VPs do. I believe execs don't realize this, while most IT management see it as a borderline necessity that's difficult to "fix" and look the other way.

From the USA Today interview with previous whistleblowers:

"They should be doing that automatically with code, so the instant when anyone goes into that base with a query that they are not supposed to be doing, they should be flagged immediately and denied access. And that could be done with code.

But the government is not doing that. So that's the greatest threat in this whole affair."

[molson]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

From the USA Today interview with previous whistleblowers:

"They should be doing that automatically with code, so the instant when anyone goes into that base with a query that they are not supposed to be doing, they should be flagged immediately and denied access. And that could be done with code.

But the government is not doing that. So that's the greatest threat in this whole affair."

But wouldn't it be IT guys that would have to write that code?

I'm sure there's some kind of security pyramid of IT guys, but it seems like it'd be tough to make a fool-proof system.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by molson

But wouldn't it be IT guys that would have to write that code?

I'm sure there's some kind of security pyramid of IT guys, but it seems like it'd be tough to make a fool-proof system.

Sure, there's going to be vulnerabilities because someone (or some group) has to create the security protocols. But one would certainly hope that a hierarchy of trust could be established in terms of who touches what - that's SOP for anything regarding security in my experience.

[Coffee Warlord]

At the end of the day, however, many IT jobs REQUIRE having a higher level of access than other departments, simply to do one's job - particularly in the sysadmin and development roles.

[molson]

And really, the information this Snowden guy had wasn't THAT sensitive. It's a pain in the ass for the government, but the basics of this program were out there already. I'm sure there's much higher up IT guys with access to much more sensitive information. Like the IT guys working for the secret department that hides aliens and stuff.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Young Drachma

Is Edward Snowden's story unravelling? Why the Guardian's scoop is looking a bit dodgy – Telegraph Blogs

#1 and #2 were asked and answered pretty reasonably. If that's the best they got, they're really in trouble.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by rowech

Nobody wanted to have the discussion because they assumed they weren't checking on just anybody they wanted to. People who aren't upset by this are simply naive.

I'm not particularly upset by this and far from naive. I think it was naive to not realize this was happening because we already knew that it was and that it is not illegal. I'm surprised anyone is surprised by this affair.

I am surprised that the government may not be doing deep enough vetting of its IT guys. It seems like Snowden has the personality, background and temperament of someone who should not have a security clearance.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

#1 and #2 were asked and answered pretty reasonably. If that's the best they got, they're really in trouble.

Link?

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Link?

In the chat with Guardian, linked in the original post, he says he went to Hong Kong because of legal process there. For salary, he told the Guardian reporter he made up to 200k in his career and took a pay cut to work at the NSA. That got paraphrased to made 200k.

Edward Snowden 'arrives in Moscow' | World news | guardian.co.uk

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I'm not particularly upset by this and far from naive. I think it was naive to not realize this was happening because we already knew that it was and that it is not illegal. I'm surprised anyone is surprised by this affair.

I am surprised that the government may not be doing deep enough vetting of its IT guys. It seems like Snowden has the personality, background and temperament of someone who should not have a security clearance.

This is where I am at as well. There have reports of stuff like this even before 9-11, and especially after. I guess the main thing this "exposes" is how easily NSA and national security techs can find specific peoples recorded information to listen and collect for their own jollys (like celebrity's communications and such). I guess some are also "shocked" that the US gathers intelligence that is really non-threat related on other countries, including our allies. Again, that really isn't shocking at all, and if you don't think every country in the world doesn't do that, then you are pretty naive.

[kcchief19]

So Snowden gives his story to a British tabloid, makes off to China, then shoves off for Moscow with plans to hide out in Ecuador.

Does this sound less and less like a guy is a "patriot" and wanted to expose what his government was doing and more and more like a "traitor" who has found a way to make a lot of money off his story? Does anyone believe China and Russian haven't found a way to "debrief" him? Between The Guardian, China and Russia, you have three entities not afraid to reimburse him for his trouble.

Maybe the guy is a genius. Maybe he's found a way to be a spy, but rather than sell his secrets to Russia or China and be hidden in a dark hole the rest of his life fearful he'll get traded back to the U.S. in exchange for another spy, he's found a way to make money from both governments, the high tail it to Ecuador and "safety."

Someone has got to be asking that question.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

So Snowden gives his story to a British tabloid, makes off to China, then shoves off for Moscow with plans to hide out in Ecuador.

Does this sound less and less like a guy is a "patriot" and wanted to expose what his government was doing and more and more like a "traitor" who has found a way to make a lot of money off his story? Does anyone believe China and Russian haven't found a way to "debrief" him? Between The Guardian, China and Russia, you have three entities not afraid to reimburse him for his trouble.

Maybe the guy is a genius. Maybe he's found a way to be a spy, but rather than sell his secrets to Russia or China and be hidden in a dark hole the rest of his life fearful he'll get traded back to the U.S. in exchange for another spy, he's found a way to make money from both governments, the high tail it to Ecuador and "safety."

Someone has got to be asking that question.

Yeah...I've changed my opinion totally.

[panerd]

I'm still sticking with a lot of missing information and a lot of sudden "honesty" by our government to the press. Pretty sure there are major pieces to this story that we aren't being told and the world traveler story of Hong Kong, China, Russia, Equator seems a little too forthcoming to me.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

So Snowden gives his story to a British tabloid, makes off to China, then shoves off for Moscow with plans to hide out in Ecuador.

Does this sound less and less like a guy is a "patriot" and wanted to expose what his government was doing and more and more like a "traitor" who has found a way to make a lot of money off his story? Does anyone believe China and Russian haven't found a way to "debrief" him? Between The Guardian, China and Russia, you have three entities not afraid to reimburse him for his trouble.

Maybe the guy is a genius. Maybe he's found a way to be a spy, but rather than sell his secrets to Russia or China and be hidden in a dark hole the rest of his life fearful he'll get traded back to the U.S. in exchange for another spy, he's found a way to make money from both governments, the high tail it to Ecuador and "safety."

Someone has got to be asking that question.

Maybe those were the only places he could go? Big difference between Hong Kong and China. He could have gone to Iceland and you would make the same statements, just phrased differently. This is turning out to be one of the more polarizing situations where I don't think people are going to change their opinions regardless of what happens in the future.

[panerd]

Yeah there seems to be a lot of confusion about Hong Kong and China. I realize that the UK transferred it over like 15 years ago but Hong Kong is still regarded worldwide as probably the freest country in the world where China usually finds itself pretty far down the list with the African countries. Hong Kong is not communist China.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by panerd

Hong Kong is not communist China.

But they were quite content to defer any decision on this back to Beijing.

[JonInMiddleGA]

For all the big talker out of some in Congress, let's see if they'll actually put their money where their mouths are. Ecuador has rcvd $225 million dollars in U.S. aid in the last 5 years, another $25m scheduled next year.

Country Overview | Just the Facts - U.S. military aid to Latin America and the Caribbean

[Desnudo]

The US has an extradition treaty with Ecuador.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

The US has an extradition treaty with Ecuador.

This is the thing that has bothered me about his so called "plans"


Why would he intentionally attempt to go to and hide in a nation who has an explicit treaty to return him? What about that treaty makes him feel safer there (if in fact he even realizes it exists)?

[Young Drachma]

Espionage is not covered under the extradition treaty with Ecuador. Plus the sticking point here is that Ecuadorian officials will not honor extradition requests that are deemed politically motivated and that's what they're calling this despite what the U.S. government is saying.

Also, the Ecuadorian government is helping Julian Assange, so they have a history of this. In contrast to say, Venezuela which is relatively unsafe if you have no money, Ecuador is small enough that he can manage to stay under the radar and the political situation is relatively stable and President Correa has expressed anti-American sentiments and is in his third term. Assange was granted asylum there too, his problem is he can't leave the Ecuadorian embassy in London without being arrested.

So he might not be able to hang out there forever, but would presumably have a few years provided the current regime stays in power and he doesn't manage to piss them off.

He didn't/doesn't have very many options of places to go that would intentionally stick their nose at the U.S. on this issue and given he's probably not privvy to enough to really give away more than what people already know, doesn't exactly make him as high value an asset as he fashions himself.

So if Ecuadorian government is willing to stick their nose at the U.S., remember this is the same embassy that's housing Assange in the U.K. and stopping him from being extradited to Sweden and provide a way for him to travel now that his passport has been cancelled, that's probably the holdup for why he hasn't left Moscow yet...the Ecuadorian government needs to get him a travel doc so he can get from there to Cuba and then to Ecuador -- no direct flights -- unless Team Wikileaks is arranging some kind of charter.

[Young Drachma]

There's some unconfirmed reports I've read that Snowden got a refugee travel document from Ecuador last week before he left Hong Kong.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

But they were quite content to defer any decision on this back to Beijing.

Precisely. It's not like he went to Taiwan. There is no way Snowden went to Hong Kong with no contact from the Chinese government.

I was actually beginning to swing his direction until this latest escapade. For a supposedly ordinary guy trying to right a wrong, he has had remarkable high-level assistance from foreign governments.

[kcchief19]

Initial reports say Snowden missed his flight from Moscow to Havana because the flight plan required the plane to fly over US air space. What kind of international incident would this have been if the US used fighter jets to order an Aeroflot plane to land in the US?

[molson]

The whole concept of an American actually getting political asylum for a situation like this is pretty interesting. Maybe it creates a new category of asylum seeker - if you embarrass the U.S. on an international level, you get priority consideration.