The Real Story Behind Columbine

[RainMaker]

Pretty interesting read 10 years later. A lot of the stories that came out during the time were just bold faced lies. The kids weren't bullied and didn't have some personal agenda against Christians, blacks, etc.

10 years later, the real story behind Columbine - USATODAY.com

The most interesting part is that they really haven't been able to find much of a profile for school shooters outside of them being depressed and suicidal.

[molson]

That was an interesting read. And the information was out there before today, I always wondered how the myth of the bullying/goth/outcast stuff started. I guess it just made for a more interesting story. They had older girlfriends, they had a whole scene.

[Peregrine]

Yeah I mentioned in the books thread that I just finished reading Dave Cullen's book Columbine - really a masterpiece and it has a ton of interesting stuff about the massacre.

[JPhillips]

I didn't pay much attention to the followup on Columbine, so reading that almost everything said during and right afterward was false surprised me.

[Crim]

An interesting read. Still boggles my mind, as it does every time someone commits one of these horrible, senseless crimes. Never will understand. I'm still so angry and sad about it.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Peregrine

Yeah I mentioned in the books thread that I just finished reading Dave Cullen's book Columbine - really a masterpiece and it has a ton of interesting stuff about the massacre.

I've been debating whether I want to read this or not. Sounds like a great book with a lot of detail, but it's just depressing as fuck. Partly the reason I haven't seen the World Trade Center or 9/11 movies.

[Maple Leafs]

The guy who wrote the book was a Salon.com reporter and his stuff is still available in their archives. It was interesting to read his interview and all about the various myths that turned out to be completely made up, then go back and read his reporting in the days after the shooting and see many of those same myths show up.

[Izulde]

Fascinating reading.

[Peregrine]

In Cullen's book, the toughest myth to debunk is the whole Cassie Bernall "She Said Yes" myth, where it was reported that she was asked whether she believed in God, and when she said yes, she was shot. The book very thoroughly debunks it, he talks to the only people with a direct view of her during the shooting and all reported she never said anything , and the question wasn't even directly asked. But I found it interesting sociologically that when he talked to some of the people who have made this a key part of the story of Columbine for the church (and a best selling book) he was told basically "The church has it's story and it's sticking to it," which is exactly what's happened, regardless of the facts.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Peregrine

In Cullen's book, the toughest myth to debunk is the whole Cassie Bernall "She Said Yes" myth, where it was reported that she was asked whether she believed in God, and when she said yes, she was shot. The book very thoroughly debunks it, he talks to the only people with a direct view of her during the shooting and all reported she never said anything , and the question wasn't even directly asked. But I found it interesting sociologically that when he talked to some of the people who have made this a key part of the story of Columbine for the church (and a best selling book) he was told basically "The church has it's story and it's sticking to it," which is exactly what's happened, regardless of the facts.

I don't think it's tough to debunk the "She Said Yes" myth. I don't believe there is a single witness who said it happened. The one kid who did say it happened ended up going back to the school during the investigation and it was determined Bernall was nowhere near where he said he heard it. The girl who she was studying with gave a rather detailed account of how Bernall was killed.

If it makes the family feel better, I have no problem with them believing what they want. It is sad that the Church would exploit a myth like this for personal gain (although not a surprise considering the source).

[GrantDawg]

Most of the myths stemmed from the stories the kids gave that were in the school, but actually did not witness what they claimed. It is not uncommon in cases like this that people who crave attention use the situation to get a little facetime/media attention. "I was in a locked classroom and just heard gunshots" doesn't generally make it to CNN.

[Sgran]

I highly recommend Michael Moore's film Bowling for Columbine if you haven't seen it. It's true that Moore rides his own take on gun control, but it's still a very entertaining and thought-provoking film.

[I. J. Reilly]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Most of the myths stemmed from the stories the kids gave that were in the school, but actually did not witness what they claimed. It is not uncommon in cases like this that people who crave attention use the situation to get a little facetime/media attention. "I was in a locked classroom and just heard gunshots" doesn't generally make it to CNN.

I don’t think that’s really fair to the kids to say they are lying or seeking attention. Even trained soldiers aren’t able to recall many specific facts about a battle field after the fact; I don’t see why you would hold 14-18 year old civilians to a higher standard. Save your anger for the outside groups who tried to further their agenda by using the statements, not the kids.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Sgran

I highly recommend Michael Moore's film Bowling for Columbine if you haven't seen it. It's true that Moore rides his own take on gun control, but it's still a very entertaining and thought-provoking film.

I'll have to read the article above to see if this was one of the myths that has been since debunked, but my whole problem with the Michael Moore / gun control wave in the wake of Columbine was the number of guns the kids used that were illegal for them to acquire in the first place. The laws were already there, so how were more laws going to prevent it?

Now off to find out if I'm completely incorrect on my recollection of how they got the guns

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by I. J. Reilly

I don’t think that’s really fair to the kids to say they are lying or seeking attention. Even trained soldiers aren’t able to recall many specific facts about a battle field after the fact; I don’t see why you would hold 14-18 year old civilians to a higher standard. Save your anger for the outside groups who tried to further their agenda by using the statements, not the kids.

a. Not angry, only explaining.

b. It is not a matter of "getting the facts." There were a number of kids that started many of the stories that weren't in the room where the supposed story happened. Are you saying they saw through walls?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

The guy who wrote the book was a Salon.com reporter and his stuff is still available in their archives. It was interesting to read his interview and all about the various myths that turned out to be completely made up, then go back and read his reporting in the days after the shooting and see many of those same myths show up.

Heck I find it interesting that we're supposedly getting "the real story" from a guy who is no different than the ones being criticized for getting aspects of the story in the first place.

Just sort of seems a little, I dunno, gullible is probably the word I'm looking for here.

[I. J. Reilly]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

a. Not angry, only explaining.

b. It is not a matter of "getting the facts." There were a number of kids that started many of the stories that weren't in the room where the supposed story happened. Are you saying they saw through walls?

No, no; what I’m saying is that it’s probably not fair to consider it lying. Even if the kid was clearly not where he says he was, or saw what he says he saw. The human brain struggles when it is shown something that has no explanation, it will try to construct a feasible scenario to explain it. It’s probably semantics, but if the kid completely believes that is what they saw, I don’t think you can accuse them of lying.

[Travis]

I'll admit that while I didn't try and dig into the facts at the time I considered this a true tragedy and was stunned when it happened.

Reading the article linked above, well, wow. Thank whoever you want to thank that their original plan didn't end up working. I had no idea they had originally set out on accomplishing on such a larger scale. Obviously doesn't make what happened any less tragic, but the alternative...damn.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by I. J. Reilly

No, no; what I’m saying is that it’s probably not fair to consider it lying. Even if the kid was clearly not where he says he was, or saw what he says he saw. The human brain struggles when it is shown something that has no explanation, it will try to construct a feasible scenario to explain it. It’s probably semantics, but if the kid completely believes that is what they saw, I don’t think you can accuse them of lying.

So when someone says they were somewhere they clearly weren't, and they say they heard something they clearly couldn't, that's not lying? I want you on my jury if I'm ever charged with perjury.

I get why the press and others believed the stories and rumors, because of just what you said. But someone who wasn't there saying that they were is lying and they know (outside of something real psychotic) that they are lying. It happens all the time in cases like this, and its not because they really believe they were there. These are kids. They are not that sophisticated.

[stevew]

I didn't realize there were 14 fatalities. I was under the impression it was in the mid twenties. It is amazing that kids with such a large arsenal didn't kill a lot more. Mid day in a school of that size if have expected a toll in the 100 range.

[Peregrine]

Originally Posted by stevew

I didn't realize there were 14 fatalities. I was under the impression it was in the mid twenties. It is amazing that kids with such a large arsenal didn't kill a lot more. Mid day in a school of that size if have expected a toll in the 100 range.

Cullen talks about this in his book - he says a lot of people are surprised by this, but really they shouldn't consider Columbine a shooting incident, so much as a bombing that failed. They had bombs that luckily failed to go off, set in the crowded cafeteria area, they had even timed it to determine when the cafeteria would be most crowded, 11:17 AM. So they set up outside, covering key exits that kids would be running from after the bombs went off, and waited, setting up fields of fire for maximum casualties. When the bombs didn't go off, they had to go to a plan B, which was just running inside and shooting randomly basically.

He estimates that if the bombs had gone off, there could have been several hundred casualties - inspectors later found bombs set to collapse key load bearing pillars that could have brought down the second story on top of the cafeteria area. Scary.

[Peregrine]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Heck I find it interesting that we're supposedly getting "the real story" from a guy who is no different than the ones being criticized for getting aspects of the story in the first place.

Just sort of seems a little, I dunno, gullible is probably the word I'm looking for here.

I think the reason is - when the massacre happened, pretty much everyone was going with the "grasping at straws" approach. But the difference with Cullen is that after the media circus left town for the next crisis, with many of the myths firmly in place, he, as a local Denver area reporter, kept digging and has done ten years of research on it, and was able to see past many of his original mistakes.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

These are kids. They are not that sophisticated.

Don't forget that unsophisticated kids planned a pretty deliberate bombing that thankfully wasn't carried out as well as intended.

I think "lying" is a strong word and I'd hate to use the done-to-death, misremembering, but I think the chaos and trauma some of these kids went through there is no doubt details would be mangled.