Poker - Don't you love it when. . .

[TroyF]

When everyone on the table doesn't have a solid read on you?

A friend gave me Helmuth's book for Christmas. I read it and decided to incorporate a few of the idea in my game. I played fewer hands, but was much more aggressive in the hands I did play.

At the $1/$2 limit hold em tables at Party, I went in with 50 bucks. After an hour, I'm sitting at $150 and rolling. I feel like I have a solid read on everyone at the table and am feeling great about my plays. (obviously winning helps with that)

The amazing thing is I'm seeing about half the flops I usually see. I'm just being smarter about going in. (and don't get me wrong, I know I got some cards, I'm not a "pro" by any stretch.

So I start out a hand raising with A/10 off suit. This was the first time all day I'd raised with this type of hand. When it came to the aces, I had only played A/A, A/K or A/Q suited. I'd folded every other ace on the day.

It end up being only me and the guy in front of me in the hand. Flop comes up K/Q/6. He's first to act and raises. I want some info here and reraise. He calls. Next card is a 7. He checks. I bet hoping to get him out of the pot, figuring he's bluffing. He calls. Last card is a J.

My straight hits. He bets. I raise. He reraises. I reraise. He calls. He has three J, and I win with the straight.

He then starts berating me in the chat, saying I sucked out and that I'm an idiot who can never fold an ace. Another guy agrees with him. And yet another says they can't wait until I lose, because I'm such a stupid player.

I stay another forty minutes and end up with over $280 in my account. An hour forty and I ended up $230 bucks ahead. I sure hope I see those guys again. They have me pegged 100% wrong and I'll be more than happy to take their money.

FWIW, my stats on the day were 18% of the flops seen and winning 46% of the flops I saw. I won 78% of my "showdowns." Good times.

[Maple Leafs]

Nice going.

Just curious, what's considered "good" stats? I had assumed winning was better, but was told recently that you actually don't want too high a showdown win percentage because it means you're not being aggressive enough. (In the long run... obviously if you're having a good afternoon like you were here, you could be very happy with a high percentage.)

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by TroyF

A friend gave me Helmuth's book for Christmas.

Friends don't give friends Hellmuth books. Throw that thing in the trash before it ruins your game for life.

Phil Hellmuth is a great tournament player, period. He is absolutely horrible in ring games.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Friends don't give friends Hellmuth books. Throw that thing in the trash before it ruins your game for life.

Phil Hellmuth is a great tournament player, period. He is absolutely horrible in ring games.

It's actually not that bad.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't use every strategy nor will I. Even being the novice I am, I understand there is no set set of rules to win. You have to incorporate a ton of strategies. In this case, i think Phil hit on my biggest problems:

1) I play far to passively. Way to many calls.
2) Playing far to many hands.

Now, I knew these were issues before the book and was working on them, but having the book and actually reading some strategies for how to rectify those two problems helped a lot.

Not a fan of Helmuth (certainly not his table manners), but the book is a good read.

Maple,

I've read your showdown wins shouldn't be to high as well. In this case, it was just a situation where everything came together for me. I felt I could read anyone at that table. Everyone at the table stayed for a long length of time. It was like the perfect storm. The % would have even been higher had I not had two bad beats. (I lost a full house to a straight flush on one hand and a full house to a four of a kind another time)

[cthomer5000]

It's a 1/2 table. I think you're lucky if your opponents can figure out what buttons to press, let alone get a read on you.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

It's a 1/2 table. I think you're lucky if your opponents can figure out what buttons to press, let alone get a read on you.

Shrug. It's a low level, and no doubt there are some bad players, but that's the level most of us are playing at. If you play at a higher level, good for you -- doesn't make his winning afternoon any less of an achievement for him.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Shrug. It's a low level, and no doubt there are some bad players, but that's the level most of us are playing at. If you play at a higher level, good for you -- doesn't make his winning afternoon any less of an achievement for him.

What he said. I'm a novice. I realize this. I clearly stated that the nice little run didn't make me a pro or anything close to it. It was just a fun little run.

FWIW, I went to the 2/4 tables a little bit ago and came out +$40 in 1/2 hour. I'm not close to ready or have the money to be ready for the 10/20 tables. (if I build up a nice stash, I'll be able to give em a shot at some point) This extra money will allow me to buy into a few tournaments where I'll probably get my ass kicked and learn more.

Gotta start somewhere.

[TroyF]

And my day of online poker ends. . .

I decided to play in a 10+1 tourney. Had about 13,000 in chips with the average stack having 8,000. Played a hand horribly, just horribly and lost over half my stack. Ended up in 125th in a tourney of 1725 players. Made a little over four bucks for the 2 1/2 hours worth of play after the $15 payout.

I really wish I'd have used my head. Went way to far with an A/J and got beat by someone with an A/Q. Just a really stupid play. Ended up going out with a pair of sixes against an A/J. He got the J on the river. Ugh.

[tucker rocky]

I just started playing this PP game.

Started with a $1,000 bank roll, went to my first table, and came out ahead $363.00.

I guess that is somewhat of good start for about 30 minutes of playing.

[QuikSand]

Congrats on a good day, and some good progress with your approach.

If Hellmuth's book has you appreciating the value of playing fewer hands and playing them more aggressively, that's good. Some are critical of some of its specifics... but if you're on this course, then it's hard to complain too much.

Best of luck.

[Grammaticus]

Does anyone have suggestions on good books to read for strategy on Texas Hold 'Em? I'm going to start a game with a few buddies, varied level of expertise. I would like to get a leg up on strategy.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Congrats on a good day, and some good progress with your approach.

If Hellmuth's book has you appreciating the value of playing fewer hands and playing them more aggressively, that's good. Some are critical of some of its specifics... but if you're on this course, then it's hard to complain too much.

Best of luck.

Thanks QS. I plan on buying Brunson's book at some point.

It's amazing to me how much better you can be when you play aggressive. My two main problems in poker came were really dealing with the same thing. Being passive and indecisive with my decisions. Forcing myself to be aggressive and make lots of bets/raises also forced me to play fewer hands. Knowing I was going to raise a time or two every hand I played caused me to really think about the hands I played and why I was going to play them.

In the tournament I saw 18% of the flops and won 44% of the ones I saw. Is that about where you should be on a normal night?

[Maple Leafs]

At the risk of SkyDog banning me for not respecting Helmuth's intellectual property, can you share a few tips on how to be more aggressive? I want to be, but I'm not sure how and sometimes after a hand I feel like (win or lose) I've just been reckless, which can't be good.

Any common situations or general tips that he offers that could provide some quick help to a beginner?

[GreenMonster]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Does anyone have suggestions on good books to read for strategy on Texas Hold 'Em? I'm going to start a game with a few buddies, varied level of expertise. I would like to get a leg up on strategy.

Having read over 25 books now I am your man.. Will you guys start playing No-Limit or Limit because most of the better books cover one of the other.

[GreenMonster]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

At the risk of SkyDog banning me for not respecting Helmuth's intellectual property, can you share a few tips on how to be more aggressive? I want to be, but I'm not sure how and sometimes after a hand I feel like (win or lose) I've just been reckless, which can't be good.

Any common situations or general tips that he offers that could provide some quick help to a beginner?

The biggest help I can give any new player is play tight preflop. The tighter preflop you play, the less decisions you will have post flop which is good. You don't really have to be creative in your play at the lower levels, good tight play will crush most tables. In tourney's play tight unless you are low on chips and then play aggressive. My friend who has won 30k+ in the last 6 months who is now maybe better than me remembers the best advice I gave him when I started teaching him. If you have to think about what to do in the hand the answer is you should fold.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

At the risk of SkyDog banning me for not respecting Helmuth's intellectual property, can you share a few tips on how to be more aggressive? I want to be, but I'm not sure how and sometimes after a hand I feel like (win or lose) I've just been reckless, which can't be good.

Any common situations or general tips that he offers that could provide some quick help to a beginner?

There's certainly nothing about this kind of information that is specific to Hellmuth, by any stretch -- so no issue of "property" right at all, unless you crib a quiz right out of his bok, and than post his entire answer.


Anyway - here's one thought that I like as an illustration. There are a couple limpers to you in your standard low-level limit game... you hold JTs in late position, say the cutoff seat. A beginning player probably sees this hand and says that in late position, it's probably worth playing -- it's good enough to make a big hand with a straight or a flush, and even a pair might hold up. Fair enough... lots of learning players will limp here and hope to hit.

Two ideas spring from this. First -- what about raising with it now? Most inexperienced players immediately think that raising is done when you have a very powerful hand and are trying to maximize its value. Sometimes that's true - but here, there's pretty likely to be an ace or a pair among those limpers... you are probably *not* holding the best hand right now.

So, why on earth would you raise? Well, one thing it does is that it gives you the "lead" in the hand - other players are now more inclined to defer to your action, and in late position, this has great value. Most of the time, this means that the tabvle will check to you when they see the flop, and if you bet the flop, they will check to you on the turn as well. If you have a big hand at this point, you are in control... if not, you probably just bought a "free" look at the flop with your bet on the turn.

What if someone bets out at you on the flop? Now you know to take that more seriously then you would have otherwise... you have established power with your raise, and someone dares to bet into you? That gives you a lot more information than if you had simply limped along like everyone else... now what would you know based on that player betting out? (A lot less)

Without getting too bogged down in the specifics of this particular hand.. I think it can serve as a nice illustration of how to play some hangs more aggressively than you might have been inclined as a beginner, and hopefully points out the value of establishing power in a hand.

You can continue the exercise with a hand like JTs... what if you only called preflop, but the flop comes with a ten high? There are two checks, then a bet to you -- what do you do? Lots of players wil be owrried about hands like AT, KT, and even QT here, but can't get off the top pair, and go into check-down mode. What about a raise here? Establishing power with a raise does several things -- it better defines the actions of players who now face two bets cold... and it puts you back into the power seat. A common result there is that you raise the flop with your good pair, bet the turn and watch the original bettor call you, and then on the rive,m when you don't get help, you check rather than bet, watching the original bettor turn over a better hand like maybe KT. What happened? Well, even in that fairly common case, you saved yourself a small bet as compared to just calling down... establishing power gave you the right to not have any betting action on the final round. Plus, there are any number of other ways that "taking the lead" in the hand can get you to win... sometimes weak players wil give you credit for more than you have just because you raised... and you gain some "fold equity" in the pot as they may get out rather than face your perceived big hand.


Maybe a little disjointed... but some of that is the thinking behind playing more aggressively. It's amazing how much you can get our of aggression, once you get over the worry about losing one more bet here or there on the pots you end up losing. Focus on the new pots that you win with your aggression (and sometimes the extra value of those pots, too) and you'll find out that well-timed and well-placed aggressive play is the real key to taking the next step in really beating the game.

[TroyF]

Maple,

In the entire day I've played like this, I think what QS has said is dead on.

I was the guy who limped in with the 10/J and prayed for a good flop. Now I'm going to fold that hand a majority of the time, but if I play it, I want as much information about the other guys at the table as I can have, and I can only get that information with by making a raise or two.

I was always worried about losing the extra bet or two with a mediocre hand. What usually happened is I'd lose far more money in the end, because the flop would come ten high and then I'd act like an idiot and start to get aggressive. Smart move there. Ten high and I'm acting like I had the nuts on the turn.

At best, I was probably only a 60/40 favorite at that point against other players even if they didn't hold a high pair. A simple raise pre flop and post flop would give me some information about what I was going up against. It would also make the other players fear me a bit. Now my 60/40 odds become a teensy bit better because I may be able to push them away before they see another card.

It's funny how simple of a concept this is, yet it doesn't really "click" until you force yourself to do it. I'm going to get my ass kicked some days as I'm still learning this game, but I can already tell I'm going to be more successful and have a lot more fun playing by playing fewer hands and being aggressive in the hands I play.

Oh, and I've put the Hellmuth book down. Going to order a couple of other ones today and grasp the concept. I've heard to many people tell me the book isn't good to not listen to them.

[Mustang]

Hmm.. I'm no pro either but, if I have JJ and the flop comes out K/Q/6 and the other person raises.. I'd be seriously questioning if my JJ's were good at that time. Wouldn't it be best to either reraise at this point or just get out of the hand?

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Hmm.. I'm no pro either but, if I have JJ and the flop comes out K/Q/6 and the other person raises.. I'd be seriously questioning if my JJ's were good at that time. Wouldn't it be best to either reraise at this point or just get out of the hand?

Yes, that's where he messed up on this hand. I'd have lost it to a good player. With JJ and me reraising with the K/Q on the flop I agree with you, he needs to either get our or reraise.

I think the part he really blew it though was on the turn. He checks, I bet, he calls. Not a lot of logic there in my mind. If he was willing to bet the hand, why didn't he do it? He makes a bet there or reraises my bet, I'm out. I'm going to assume he has a pair of something and I'm not going to waste anymore money with the hand. By not being aggressive, he allowed me to see the river card and it was the worst possible card for him.

An A and he can assume I've paired and get out. But a J gives him the set and he's going to bet that out.

He had me in this hand right from the start and let me hang around.

I played at the 3/6 tables this morning for one hour and came out $50 ahead again. Why do I have a feeling like I just found my swing at the practice range in golf?

You get that great feeling, hit about ten to twelve great shots in a row. . . and then the bottom falls out and you find your place in the world.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Shrug. It's a low level, and no doubt there are some bad players, but that's the level most of us are playing at. If you play at a higher level, good for you -- doesn't make his winning afternoon any less of an achievement for him.

I think what ct was saying (and the point I would make too), is that Troy was giving the low level players too much credit. They don't have a read on you, because they probably don't have a read on anybody. He's most likely much more skilled than his opponents.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I played at the 3/6 tables this morning for one hour and came out $50 ahead again.

I don't claim to know what your bankroll is, but I'm going to guess that 3/6 is way too high for you right now. You might want to step back to a more comfortable level like 1/2 and stay there until you are consistently beating it.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

I don't claim to know what your bankroll is, but I'm going to guess that 3/6 is way too high for you right now. You might want to step back to a more comfortable level like 1/2 and stay there until you are consistently beating it.

I plan on staying at the 2/4 tables for awhile and seeing how that goes. I just wanted to step up a little and test the waters. I don't plan on playing at that level a ton yet. As for bankroll, I'm playing with the profits from yesterday.

I'm not going to bet or play with money I can't afford to lose.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I plan on staying at the 2/4 tables for awhile and seeing how that goes. I just wanted to step up a little and test the waters. I don't plan on playing at that level a ton yet. As for bankroll, I'm playing with the profits from yesterday.

I'm not going to bet or play with money I can't afford to lose.

I hope I don't come off as condescending, but you admit that you are new to this, so I'm just trying to help. The general guideline for playing limit poker is that you have enough of a bankroll to cover 300 big bets. At 2/4, that's $1200. You can get by with 200BB, but much less than that is asking for trouble. The problem is that variance will eventually catch up with you (as it does to everybody at some point). I'm sure that all of the long-time players here have had downswings of 50BB or 100BB, and if your bankroll can't handle that type of variance, you're going to find your profits disappearing rather quickly.

Whatever the case, good luck to you. I hope to get back into playing seriously in a few weeks instead of this micro-stakes stuff I'm forced to play right now. Maybe we'll meet at the tables sometime soon.