What would make you leave the church

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

If there are no innocent churchgirls I can corrupt in the church, I would stop going.

Methinks someone watches too much Cinemax

SI

[BuffaloHuskey]

I was confirmed Catholic when I was 17 (10 years ago) to please my parents, I have not been back to a Catholic church except for weddings, since that day. I have no problems with believing in God, and I actually think that attending faith based meetings is a good way to meet quality people and reflect upon your life. What made me stop going was the feeling that I was having someone's opinion on what I should believe and how I should act, shoved down my throat. I am a very independent person who likes to develop my own position on political and moral issues. I don't appreciate someone trying to push down their beliefs on me. My other issue is that I had a problem with listening to some priest talk about moral right and wrong and how to live your life, when their were so many priests out their touching boys and girls. Now I know that it was a small majority of priests but still, these people are supposed to be role models, so they lost some credibility in my mind. I never met a priest that had any life experiences which could relate to my experiences. Most of them had grown up in the church and became priests. I just had a hard time relating to them.

Lastly, I would think that I am pretty liberal in my social beliefs and that just did not work well with the message of the Catholic Church. I have no problem if gays want to marry and I don't consider them sinners, just different strokes for different folks. (If I hear the damn sanctity of marriage line one more time I think I may puke. When 50% of marriages end in divorce, their is no sanctity there.) I also oppose the Church's view on abortion and assisted suicide so that makes it hard to fit into the Church's belief system.

I am sure I will go back to attending some sort of Chrisian Church service at some point, but I have to find the right place for me. I need a church where there are not fanatics and where politics is kept out of the discussion.

I know it kills my mother that I will not attend church with her, but I can't sacrafice my beliefs to make everyone else happy.

[Drake]

Just out of curiosity, how does listening to someone else's thoughts on a topic cause you to sacrifice your own beliefs?

Maybe I'm revealing my Protestantism here, but I was never under the impression that anyone attending church was required to agree with the pastor/minister/priest 100% of the time.

[SirFozzie]

Drake: you're revealing your Protestantism.

It's not a matter of discussing, it's expecting you to be in lockstep with church leadership 100% on their issues, or you're a sinner and worthless.

[Drake]

Ah, gotcha. Guess that's why I'm not Catholic.

[Raiders Army]

I skipped from one of the games yesterday (I think it was Denver/Pittsburgh) to CNN and they had this older woman (late thirties/early forties) who had sex with her pastor for 14 years. He even pimped her out. When they asked her why she did it, it was because her pastor told her that God wanted him to do her. They asked her about adultery, and she said that the pastor said that he was above mortal sins.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

It's not a matter of discussing, it's expecting you to be in lockstep with church leadership 100% on their issues, or you're a sinner and worthless.

This is part of the problem with the way the Church is run now. This isn't true, however, the leadership here in the States want you to think that.

The only stuff you have to accept 100% is the Church dogma. The rest of the teachings are secondary.

I had a friend that was kicked out of PRE because he kept asking questions about faith and religion when he was in 1st or 2nd grade (its just the way he is, always asking questions, proof, etc., wound up being a rocket scientist). Rather than answer his questions, they booted him. That's not the way you teach children about what you believe.

I really wish they would go back to the Catechisms as that would let you know what you believed, and if you wanted the reasons and the backgrounds for the beliefs, it was there. If you just wanted to be spoonfed, you could do that as well. Now, the teachers don't know what the Church stands for, so how can the students?

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

The only stuff you have to accept 100% is the Church dogma. The rest of the teachings are secondary.

I had a friend that was kicked out of PRE because he kept asking questions about faith and religion when he was in 1st or 2nd grade (its just the way he is, always asking questions, proof, etc., wound up being a rocket scientist). Rather than answer his questions, they booted him. That's not the way you teach children about what you believe.

I had a slightly different experience in catholic HS. There was quite a bit of tolerance for debate and dissent, even on issues like abortion--which really does mirror somewhat the state of intellectual thought within the Catholic Church of the past 30 years or so. There are multiple schools of thought within Church theological circles, and these are healthily discussed and debated, especially at the university level.

I suppose the amount of leeway a catholic school student gets to debate church issues and at what age probably depends on the order the school is affiliated with. Some are more liberal than others...

[SirFozzie]

Considering we had one of the most interesting events in American Catholic history of the 20th century (Cardinal Cushing excommunicating Father Leonard Feeney for preaching on Boston Common that ''there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.") in the area, you would think that this area would be.. well.. more liberal on some issues. (I wish there was a different word to use there, so this doesn't turn into another liberal v conservative dickwaving fest, but open-mionded doesn't quite fit as well there)

Instead I talked to my folks (my mom's an occasional church goer) after church before the 2004 election.. this was back in mid-October of that year.. and apparently the pastor spent 15 minutes of the Mass reminding the folks that any Christian who voted for any candidate for public office who had taken a position opposite to the Church's on various issues would have committed a sin, and be in need of penance.

Pretty black and white, don't you think?

Between that, and the ACTIVE hiding of pedophile priests (getting complaints, pulling the priest, only to install him in another parish)..

and now, withholding church sanction of any church that hosts a group called Voice of the Faithful that's dedicated to reforming the church against such activities.. gah. Makes my blood boil.

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Drake: you're revealing your Protestantism.

It's not a matter of discussing, it's expecting you to be in lockstep with church leadership 100% on their issues, or you're a sinner and worthless.

I would disagree with that only by replacing the "expect" with "dictate". The essence of Catholicism is that the church takes responsibility for all religious and moral matters. Should new moral dilemmas arise, the Vatican will pronounce its position based on Catholic dogma and it is beholding on the faithful to agree with the opinion expressed or leave the church.

It is this relationship between church and the faithful that confirms a priest in his belief that he can dictate political/moral positions.

Coming back to Easy_Mac's original post: if you wish to have individual moral opinion or a personal relationship with God then Catholicism is not the one for you. These are precisely what distinguishes Protestantism.

[revrew]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

He continues on all of this for about 20 minutes, continuing to reference Hitler, but never once referencing the Bible, saying that the people who perpetrate these things will have the same fate as the Nazis. At the end of the homily, I just couldn't take it anymore and went outside to get a breath.

I came back in after about 5 minutes and went back to doing mass, calmed a little, but not completely. I didn't bother to put my offering in the tray, there is no way that church is getting any money after this. When I went up for communion, I went up there, crossed myself and walked right past the priest. I nearly dropped an FU, but I relented. I'm not entirely sure I feel comfortable attending church there anymore. The other priests are nice there, but I just felt that this priest went completely beyond what it means to be a priest.

This is my problem. I don't think its the job of the church to be involved in politics. That's the one thing that would make me leave the church, actually just quit. I don't have a problem with faith, but I felt the connections the priest made, never once referencing the Bible, went far beyond anything a priest should do. I understand that faith and politics are intertwined, but there is still a line that shouldn't be crossed, and we all realize this. I dunno, is this reason enough to leave the church, or just to go to a different church? Would you have offered your money to such a person? I just think he's a vile human being myself.

I'll attempt to answer exactly the questions you're asking, rather than the various political/moral red herrings:

1. When considering church membership/attendance, it's wise to first consider the doctrine/theology of that church. If you don't agree with the foundations, sooner or later you will trip over that which is built on top.

2. From the sounds of your post, you have a theological dilemma. Several times you mentioned your disappointment that the priest did not reference the Bible. This is the first question you must answer: Do you expect that the priest/preacher will derive his authority to preach from the Bible? Or from the church? Or a combination of both?

3. If you believe a preacher's authority to preach comes only from the Bible, you have reached an impass with the Catholic church--for Catholic priests derive their authority from BOTH the Bible and the apostolic authority of the Church. If you honestly believe that the church must submit itself to the Bible, and that the preacher's authority comes from the Bible alone, then you would be best served seeking a church outside the Catholic tradition. If, however, you are willing to submit to the authority the historic Catholic church and are willing to accept the authority of its appointed priest, then you would likely be best served in another Catholic church where you respect the integrity and godliness of the priest there.

4. As for your current parish, considering that you were ready to FU the priest in public, I find it unlikely that you would do well remaining there. While I would recommend seeking reconciliation with the man himself, I think you have lost too much respect for his priestly authority to continue attending the same parish.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by revrew

for Catholic priests derive their authority from BOTH the Bible and the apostolic authority of the Church. If you honestly believe that the church must submit itself to the Bible, and that the preacher's authority comes from the Bible alone, then you would be best served seeking a church outside the Catholic tradition. If, however, you are willing to submit to the authority the historic Catholic church and are willing to accept the authority of its appointed priest then you would likely be best served in another Catholic church where you respect the integrity and godliness of the priest there.

I believe it is this type of authority that empowers pedophile priests and other sexual predators hiding behind the collar. It also provides an avenue for the whims of men to become "holy" doctrine.

[Abe Sargent]

We need to come up with an FOFC term to descirbe a thread where one poster in the thread makes an interesting point about a topic, and then the thread goes on for some time and no one responds to the interesting point.

How about "a stealth post?"

-Anxiety

[rexallllsc]

You know what would make me leave the church? If I was to stop believing in God. If I believed in God, no man could make me stop going to church, per se. Maybe another church, or worship at home, but no MAN and his interpretations would kill my faith.