Ping: Theologians, amateur or otherwise

[st.cronin]

What is the significance of a 3-dimensional cross?

I attended an Orthodox service this weekend (my first one). There was a chandelier suspended from a chain in the shape of a 3 dimensional cross (by which is meant a long vertical piece, intersected twice horizontally by perpendicular sections).

I read, a long time ago, some stuff on this, but can't remember any of it, and can't find anything in wikipedia or anywhere else.

[QuikSand]

Maybe so an onlooker can appreciate its inherent crossiness from practically any oncoming angle?



I got nothing.

[rkmsuf]

ask darren daulton. he seems to have a handle on everything.

[cartman]

I always thought that the orthodox cross had a second, diagonal crossbeam below the top, horizontal crossbeam.

[cartman]

dola,

the only cross I can think of that has two, equal length horizontal crossbeams is the cross used to denote the rank of Cardinal in the Catholic Church. If my memory serves me right, it is called the Cross of Lorraine.

[Abe Sargent]

This isn't commonly understood nomenclature, so allow me to help you out:

Theology - The study of the nature of God and religious truth; rational inquiry into religious questions.

Ecclesiastical - Of or relating to a church, especially as an organized institution.


I believe that you're asking a question about the ecclesiastical, not the theological.


-Anxiety

[Bea-Arthurs Hip]

In the Eastern Rite tradition The Roman Catholic Church and for the Orthodox Churches, a tradition developed of adding a shorter horizontal beam above the one holding the arms, and at the bottom of the cross, a lower slanted beam. This type of cross is commonly called the 'Eastern Cross."

The smaller upper beam represents Pontius Pilate's inscription written in Latin, Greek and Hebrew, Jesus the Nazorean, the King of the Jews )INRI).

The lower beam represents the footrest upon which our Lord's feet were nailed. . The slanted beam symbolized the agony and struggle of our Lord during His suffering on the cross.

A tradition arising around the eleventh century holds that the slanting beam symbolized the balance between the good thief and the bad thief: the good thief, known as St. Dismas, found salvation at the last moment of his life and would be raised up to heaven, while the bad thief cursing God in His last breath, would be thrust downward to hell.

What kind of Orthodox Church was it?? Eastern, Russian, Coptic, Byzantine, Ukranian...I believe all have their own Traditional Cross..

[QuikSand]

That's actually a pretty good lead.

[Raven Hawk]

I think you got him wrong. My understanding is that he is asking about a cross where the two cross beams intersect the vertical beam at the same axis point. If the vertical beam were on the y-axis, then the cross beams would be on the x-axis and the z-axis respectively, making it a 3D cross.

[st.cronin]

Raven Hawk is right. I know about the Orthodox cross, but that's not what this is; it's a three dimensional cross.

Also, this isn't strictly speaking an ecclesiastical question either, as I remember seeing this symbol in places that had no affiliation with Christianity. I just don't remember what it means. I guess it's more of a symbology question.

[Raiders Army]

You can put four Jesuses up on a 3D cross instead of a maximum of two Jesuses on a 2D cross?

[Benjamin Dover]

This is Dali's Christus Hypercubus which depicts Christ's crucifixtion on a 3-D (actually four-dimensional) cross. This type of cross is often seen as a model of reality whereby the vertical axis corresponds to the axis mundi or the axis around which the cosmos is organized. This vertical axis is intersected by two horizontal axes which represent space and time. If time represents the infinite past and infinite future and time exists as far as we know in infinite space, then we have infinity in all directions. The zero point where all of the axes intersect symbolizes the point where all pairs of opposites unite and are resolved and ontologically, it is the ‘here and now’ from which time and space protrude. From what I understand, this is the fullest form of the cross which is often forgetten and rarely depicted today.

[Raiders Army]

This is coming from Bend Over?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Benjamin Dover

This is Dali's Christus Hypercubus which depicts Christ's crucifixtion on a 3-D (actually four-dimensional) cross. This type of cross is often seen as a model of reality whereby the vertical axis corresponds to the axis mundi or the axis around which the cosmos is organized. This vertical axis is intersected by two horizontal axes which represent space and time. If time represents the infinite past and infinite future and time exists as far as we know in infinite space, then we have infinity in all directions. The zero point where all of the axes intersect symbolizes the point where all pairs of opposites unite and are resolved and ontologically, it is the ‘here and now’ from which time and space protrude. From what I understand, this is the fullest form of the cross which is often forgetten and rarely depicted today.

Thanks!

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Raven Hawk is right. I know about the Orthodox cross, but that's not what this is; it's a three dimensional cross.

Also, this isn't strictly speaking an ecclesiastical question either, as I remember seeing this symbol in places that had no affiliation with Christianity. I just don't remember what it means. I guess it's more of a symbology question.

Ah. I thought you were asking why does the Orthodox church use such a symbol - what does it mean to them.


-Anxiety

[Coffee Warlord]

Obviously the 3d cross is the Holy Dagger of Tyrannus Chukius Norrisium, which will be used upon the return of Sammael Neillius, also known as the Antichrist.

[Bea-Arthurs Hip]

Sorry for being no help what so ever .

[SFL Cat]

Well, I suppose I've never exactly understood how or why the cross became an icon of the church, considering it was used as an instrument of execution. Seems to me like a modern anaology would be wearing an electric chair on a chain around your neck.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Seems to me like a modern anaology would be wearing an electric chair on a chain around your neck.

That is exactly what the cross is supposed to represent.

[Shkspr]

Christris Hypercubus, courtesy of "protagonist" years ago at the Something Awful forums.

[Benjamin Dover]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

This is coming from Bend Over?

Tough to be taken seriously with that user name--I know. Reminds me of an old Hill Street Blues episode where LaRue discovers a struggling comedian named 'Vic Hitler' who stubbornly refuses to change his name.

Getting back to the crux of the matter...the rich symbology of the cross is universal, flourishing in many different variations and ramifications and predating the sufferings of the Messiah by 15 centuries or so. The cross has a complex symbology with manifold meanings and is more than a representaion of Jesus Christ. There are many different meanings even in the Christian tradition that are not individually absolute nor mutually self-exclusive.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Benjamin Dover

Tough to be taken seriously with that user name--I know. Reminds me of an old Hill Street Blues episode where LaRue discovers a struggling comedian named 'Vic Hitler' who stubbornly refuses to change his name.

Getting back to the crux of the matter...the rich symbology of the cross is universal, flourishing in many different variations and ramifications and predating the sufferings of the Messiah by 15 centuries or so. The cross has a complex symbology with manifold meanings and is more than a representaion of Jesus Christ. There are many different meanings even in the Christian tradition that are not individually absolute nor mutually self-exclusive.

Wow. You are smart! I remember that Hitler thing too. Great stuff...