Pitching Maestros

WSUCougar · 04-24-2003, 11:47 AM

My team, the St. Louis Cardinals, lost last night. But wow! What a treat to watch the pitching duel between the Braves' Greg Maddux and the Redbirds' Matt Morris. Maddux, painting the corners and changing speeds (he does that perhaps better than anyone, ever), while Morris is powdering his fastball and then coming back with perhaps the best breaking ball in baseball. he had great stuff last night.

Alas, back-to-back homers in the 1st inning proved lethal to Morris and the Cards. Gary Sheffield hit one of them - my god, does he ever have a quick bat! He just lashes the ball.

And then in comes John Smoltz to close it out for Atlanta. He is a perfect closer, IMO.

Again, my team lost (which sucks), but it was worth seeing the pitching.

Blade · 04-24-2003, 11:58 AM

At least there are fans out there who still appreciate good pitching match-ups. In the world of the juiced ball, it has ruined the pure magic that baseball can have.

oykib · 04-24-2003, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blade
At least there are fans out there who still appreciate good pitching match-ups. In the world of the juiced ball, it has ruined the pure magic that baseball can have.

The ball isn't juiced. But the athletes are all stronger and the bat technology is much better.

I would prefer to see more actual baseball in my baseball too. The homerun just isn't as exciting as it was when I was a kid. There are too many of them.

I remember Dave Winfield hitting 36 one year and how I thought of him as the prototype power hitter. 36...

There just aren't enough important plays. There are too many at-bats where the ball doesn't enter the field of play ( homers, walks, and strikeouts ).

Alan T · 04-24-2003, 12:20 PM

Thats right.. as Bob Costas said... Maybe the ball isn't juiced, maybe the atheletes are juiced instead.

oykib · 04-24-2003, 12:37 PM

They cut open the ball and test it every year. It hasn't changed significantly.

The players are better. But I don't think steroids are the main reason. Athletes are better in every sport. Why shouldn't they be better in baseball?

But there are changes that can be made that will mean more steals, hit and runs, and plays at the plate. Those speed plays are whats exciting.

Obviously, you don't want speed plays to the exclusion of everything else. It'd be like being trnsported to 1968. But we should have a balance between speed and power.

HornedFrog Purple · 04-24-2003, 12:42 PM

Quit letting guys crowd the plate and violate the batting box, allow pitchers to pitch inside, call the strike zone as in the rule book, get rid of aluminum bats all together so pitchers can learn to pitch inside again and not fear giving up stupid doubles off the fists and power numbers go down.

Craptacular · 04-24-2003, 12:53 PM

I heart HFP. I still hate MLB.

MJ4H · 04-24-2003, 01:18 PM

I cant stand watching MLB. I much prefer college baseball. Of course I prefer watching most college sports over their pro counterparts.

Blade · 04-24-2003, 01:47 PM

Sorry, what I meant by juiced was that we are in the time of the long-ball...didn't mean to suggest that they are using different types of balls now...

I am just disappointed that pitching and defense don't seem to count for as much in the fans' eyes these days...

clintl · 04-24-2003, 01:54 PM

I think pitching staffs have become grossly mismanaged. Go back to a 4-man rotation, and don't be afraid to use your best relievers for 2-3 innings if necessary, and you won't need to rely on as many below average pitchers occupying key roles on your pitching staff. You can get by with a 10-man staff, instead of 11-12, meaning about 50 less bad pitchers on major league rosters. There's no reason that starting pitchers today can't throw 250-280 innings like they did routinely 15-20 years ago, and that the top relievers can't throw 90-100 innings, like they once did.

sterlingice · 04-24-2003, 05:12 PM

Sounds like a meeting of NL guys here. Warms my heart. None of this "stand around and water for a 3-run homer" type crap. Or the "let's carry two lefty specialists in case we use the first one for only one batter" bullshit that you see in the AL. Double switches, stolen bases, and good pitching. Woo!

Face it- juicing the players is something that helps batters but not pitchers. You get a few more guys throwing 95 vs 90 but Nolan Ryan threw 100mph 25 years ago and you still don't see very many guys who can throw 100mph. But it does add quite a few more feet to how far the ball flies if you hit it so all the advantage is to the hitters.

But, remember, if you ask a casual baseball fan, they'll wretch at a 2-1 pitching duel and talk about how boring the sport is and then yell about how great their 10-0 Packers victory over the Bills is despite the fact that it's longer and more boring. Just like politics, sports has become sound-bite-ish and so you need homers because they just aren't as exciting as a strikeout or well placed pitch that results in a ground out.

MattJones4Heisman, I have to offer my rebuttal to your argument: "PING"

SI

Easy Mac · 04-24-2003, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sterlingice
Sounds like a meeting of NL guys here. Warms my heart. None of this "stand around and water for a 3-run homer" type crap. Or the "let's carry two lefty specialists in case we use the first one for only one batter" bullshit that you see in the AL. Double switches, stolen bases, and good pitching. Woo!

Face it- juicing the players is something that helps batters but not pitchers. You get a few more guys throwing 95 vs 90 but Nolan Ryan threw 100mph 25 years ago and you still don't see very many guys who can throw 100mph. But it does add quite a few more feet to how far the ball flies if you hit it so all the advantage is to the hitters.

But, remember, if you ask a casual baseball fan, they'll wretch at a 2-1 pitching duel and talk about how boring the sport is and then yell about how great their 10-0 Packers victory over the Bills is despite the fact that it's longer and more boring. Just like politics, sports has become sound-bite-ish and so you need homers because they just aren't as exciting as a strikeout or well placed pitch that results in a ground out.

MattJones4Heisman, I have to offer my rebuttal to your argument: "PING"

SI

Umm, aside from last year and A-Rod, the leading home run hitters have been in the national league. I see more lefty/lefty match-ups in the NL. The NL games are actually running longer than AL games this year. I don't know the last time I saw a guy steal a base in either league, and good pitching? Its pretty poor in each league, but the Yankees have the best staff in baseball.

I'm an NL guy, but I'd have to say the NL has by far turned into a power league even without the DH.

oykib · 04-24-2003, 08:45 PM

Bill James offered the best solution. He wrote that the circumference of the bats should be regulated. Basically, that would get rid of the tothpick and barrelhead bats that allow players to hit so many homeruns.

The problem isn't Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa. The problem is all the guys who hit thiry homers who would have hit thirteen in 1983.

HornedFrog Purple · 04-24-2003, 09:24 PM

Why do you need to add a rule when the rules are not being followed as is?

It's very simple really. Bust the hands of a hitter who crowds the plate and call the strike as it is in the zone by definition. Watch some games, 12-15 out of 18 batters a game crouch the plate. There is no chalk line by the 7th inning. Bat circumference means nothing when its in on the hands.

Randy Johnson does it. He gets calls. Why is that? You don't have to throw 97 mph to bust hands.

You give the pitcher his fair share of the inside of the plate and this doesn't happen. That is why 13 homer guys get 30 because the pitcher gets nothing inside letting the batter extend his arms outside. Has little to do with bat circumference.

04-24-2003, 11:58 AM	#2
Blade College Prospect Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Edmonton, Alberta	At least there are fans out there who still appreciate good pitching match-ups. In the world of the juiced ball, it has ruined the pure magic that baseball can have. __________________ Just trying to get by unnoticed... Loyal fan of the Edmonton Oilers and Philadelphia Eagles.

04-24-2003, 12:20 PM	#4
Alan T Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mass.	Thats right.. as Bob Costas said... Maybe the ball isn't juiced, maybe the atheletes are juiced instead. __________________ Couch to ??k - From the couch to a Marathon in roughly 18 months.

04-24-2003, 12:42 PM	#6
HornedFrog Purple Hattrick Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Worthless, Tx	Quit letting guys crowd the plate and violate the batting box, allow pitchers to pitch inside, call the strike zone as in the rule book, get rid of aluminum bats all together so pitchers can learn to pitch inside again and not fear giving up stupid doubles off the fists and power numbers go down. __________________ King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy)

04-24-2003, 01:47 PM	#9
Blade College Prospect Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Edmonton, Alberta	Sorry, what I meant by juiced was that we are in the time of the long-ball...didn't mean to suggest that they are using different types of balls now... I am just disappointed that pitching and defense don't seem to count for as much in the fans' eyes these days... __________________ Just trying to get by unnoticed... Loyal fan of the Edmonton Oilers and Philadelphia Eagles.

04-24-2003, 05:12 PM	#11
sterlingice Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Back in Houston!	Sounds like a meeting of NL guys here. Warms my heart. None of this "stand around and water for a 3-run homer" type crap. Or the "let's carry two lefty specialists in case we use the first one for only one batter" bullshit that you see in the AL. Double switches, stolen bases, and good pitching. Woo! Face it- juicing the players is something that helps batters but not pitchers. You get a few more guys throwing 95 vs 90 but Nolan Ryan threw 100mph 25 years ago and you still don't see very many guys who can throw 100mph. But it does add quite a few more feet to how far the ball flies if you hit it so all the advantage is to the hitters. But, remember, if you ask a casual baseball fan, they'll wretch at a 2-1 pitching duel and talk about how boring the sport is and then yell about how great their 10-0 Packers victory over the Bills is despite the fact that it's longer and more boring. Just like politics, sports has become sound-bite-ish and so you need homers because they just aren't as exciting as a strikeout or well placed pitch that results in a ground out. MattJones4Heisman, I have to offer my rebuttal to your argument: "PING" SI __________________ Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out! Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!" Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!"

04-24-2003, 12:37 PM	#5
oykib College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	They cut open the ball and test it every year. It hasn't changed significantly. The players are better. But I don't think steroids are the main reason. Athletes are better in every sport. Why shouldn't they be better in baseball? But there are changes that can be made that will mean more steals, hit and runs, and plays at the plate. Those speed plays are whats exciting. Obviously, you don't want speed plays to the exclusion of everything else. It'd be like being trnsported to 1968. But we should have a balance between speed and power.

04-24-2003, 12:53 PM	#7
Craptacular College Starter Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Mad City, WI	I heart HFP. I still hate MLB.

04-24-2003, 01:18 PM	#8
MJ4H Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hog Country	I cant stand watching MLB. I much prefer college baseball. Of course I prefer watching most college sports over their pro counterparts.

04-24-2003, 01:54 PM	#10
clintl College Starter Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Davis, CA	I think pitching staffs have become grossly mismanaged. Go back to a 4-man rotation, and don't be afraid to use your best relievers for 2-3 innings if necessary, and you won't need to rely on as many below average pitchers occupying key roles on your pitching staff. You can get by with a 10-man staff, instead of 11-12, meaning about 50 less bad pitchers on major league rosters. There's no reason that starting pitchers today can't throw 250-280 innings like they did routinely 15-20 years ago, and that the top relievers can't throw 90-100 innings, like they once did.

04-24-2003, 08:45 PM	#13
oykib College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	Bill James offered the best solution. He wrote that the circumference of the bats should be regulated. Basically, that would get rid of the tothpick and barrelhead bats that allow players to hit so many homeruns. The problem isn't Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa. The problem is all the guys who hit thiry homers who would have hit thirteen in 1983.

04-24-2003, 09:24 PM	#14
HornedFrog Purple Hattrick Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Worthless, Tx	Why do you need to add a rule when the rules are not being followed as is? It's very simple really. Bust the hands of a hitter who crowds the plate and call the strike as it is in the zone by definition. Watch some games, 12-15 out of 18 batters a game crouch the plate. There is no chalk line by the 7th inning. Bat circumference means nothing when its in on the hands. Randy Johnson does it. He gets calls. Why is that? You don't have to throw 97 mph to bust hands. You give the pitcher his fair share of the inside of the plate and this doesn't happen. That is why 13 homer guys get 30 because the pitcher gets nothing inside letting the batter extend his arms outside. Has little to do with bat circumference. __________________ King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy)

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