New England Patriots

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by molson

Would you mind stating these reasons that you seem to think are so obvious? You haven't done that yet.

Three reason (though the last reason has come into vogue recently)

1) They win a lot. Of course any team that loses a ton is not going to be hated... unless they won a bunch right before that and were hated.

2) Obnoxious fans. Perhaps it is common to most dynasties, but it seems to come out more with the Yanks. An idea that no matter what, they'll win everything and anyone that disagrees are 'haters'. The idea that Jeter is "clutch" no matter what the stats guys say (I even had someone told me the stats are purposely slanted against the Yankees... I think my jaw was on the floor for the next 24 hours). Though yes, a lot of it may be due to bandwagon fans; there is always that possibility.

3) Money. That's the one that has come into vogue recently. That's also why the Red Sox are hated nowadays too (a combo of 2 and 3).

Now in the NFL you can't do the money thing these days. But 1 and 2 work for the Pats. The "we don't get any respect" thing because the oddsmakers said we weren't the favorites even though we are the road team in the Divisional Round against the #1 seed in the better conference stuff just makes #2 that much greater than, say, with other dynasties. At least Cowboys fans, 49er fans didn't speak of being 'not respected' 100 times during every playoff.

Though as said earlier by someone else, it generally has little to do with the offensive players. A lot of times it seems to be the defensive players, who get the fans going on such nonsense.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

3) Money. That's the one that has come into vogue recently. That's also why the Red Sox are hated nowadays too (a combo of 2 and 3).

If by recently you mean around the time they signed Catfish Hunter, maybe. The Yankees have been known as far and away the richest baseball team for as long as I've been following sports, at least.

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

And my point is that you and other Pats fans aren't getting that the comparison doesn't involve money. They aren't making a one to one comparison. They aren't saying they are exactly the same in every aspect.

Theres no comparison between the yankees and Pats that does make sense though.

[ISiddiqui]

In 1996 and 1998, when they won World Series, they had a smaller payroll than the Baltimore Orioles. Hell, in 1998, it was over $5 million less than the Orioles. The Yankees started pulling away a bit after that (1999 they weren't spending all that much) as young stars started to get older and ask for bigger contracts and going on free agent splurgs (as Steinbrenner reasserted control).

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Synovia

Theres no comparison between the yankees and Pats that does make sense though.

'Cause you are a Patriots homer (though as stated before that extent of homerism does seem to find a home in the Yankees fanbase as well)

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

In 1996 and 1998, when they won World Series, they had a smaller payroll than the Baltimore Orioles. Hell, in 1998, it was over $5 million less than the Orioles. The Yankees started pulling away a bit after that (1999 they weren't spending all that much) as young stars started to get older and ask for bigger contracts and going on free agent splurgs (as Steinbrenner reasserted control).

Oh dear god, just stop.

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

'Cause you are a Patriots homer (though as stated before that extent of homerism does seem to find a home in the Yankees fanbase as well)

Please explain how the Patriots and Yankees are similar.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Synovia

Please explain how the Patriots and Yankees are similar.

I already asked that - I don't think he has any idea. It's just somehow derogatory to make the comparison, so he's doing it.

Edit - I missed the list above - money, winning, and fans. It just seemed like he was hinting at something else.

[st.cronin]

The Atlanta Braves would be a much better comparison. Generally an apathetic fan base, very little history of success, and then out of nowhere a string of championship seasons.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Synovia

Are you talkign about that same survey yhat had a vote for Brady? The same survey that had a 22 votes for a punter? That same survey that had a kick returner as one of the dirtiest players in football? GIve me a friggin break.

That was all about reputation. Michael Vick has a reputation of being a good quarterback, and we all knwo that isnt true. Rodney Harrison hasnt played enough football in the last 3 years to be one of the dirtiest playesr in the NFL

Synovia,

One question: Was the hit on Harrison by the Titans Wade "dirty" or not, in your opinion?.........
I am already guessing your answer, but thought I would ask

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

maybe it's the punctuation and sentence structure?

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Synovia,

One question: Was the hit on Harrison by the Titans Wade "dirty" or not, in your opinion?.........
I am already guessing your answer, but thought I would ask

As a Dolphins fan - that hit wasn't dirty. The fact that for some reason Harrison wasn;t expecting it doesn't make it dirty: it was above the knee and legit.

Much as it pains me to admit it, I quite like watching the Pats play (one Miami have officilally eliminated themsleves you understand) - Brady is quality, Troy Brown & Mike Vrabel the only effective two way players I can think of in todays NFL, Seymour, Wilfork & Samuel are class, and the others might be cogs in a machine, but it's one helluva machine.

Plus they deserve respect for acknowledging the fact that their old logo looked like a camp Errol Flynn...

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Three reason (though the last reason has come into vogue recently)

1) They win a lot. Of course any team that loses a ton is not going to be hated... unless they won a bunch right before that and were hated.

2) Obnoxious fans. Perhaps it is common to most dynasties, but it seems to come out more with the Yanks. An idea that no matter what, they'll win everything and anyone that disagrees are 'haters'. The idea that Jeter is "clutch" no matter what the stats guys say (I even had someone told me the stats are purposely slanted against the Yankees... I think my jaw was on the floor for the next 24 hours). Though yes, a lot of it may be due to bandwagon fans; there is always that possibility.

3) Money. That's the one that has come into vogue recently. That's also why the Red Sox are hated nowadays too (a combo of 2 and 3).

Now in the NFL you can't do the money thing these days. But 1 and 2 work for the Pats. The "we don't get any respect" thing because the oddsmakers said we weren't the favorites even though we are the road team in the Divisional Round against the #1 seed in the better conference stuff just makes #2 that much greater than, say, with other dynasties. At least Cowboys fans, 49er fans didn't speak of being 'not respected' 100 times during every playoff.

Though as said earlier by someone else, it generally has little to do with the offensive players. A lot of times it seems to be the defensive players, who get the fans going on such nonsense.

So the Steelers, Packers, Seahawks, Cowboys, Eagles, Giants, Colts, Chargers, etc, all Are just as much the Yankees as the Pats.

[VPI97]

It's less about the fact that the Patriots have a similar history to the Yankees and more about the fact that both Yankee fans and Patriot fans come off as assholes.

[st.cronin]

My guess is that the Patriots had one of the smallest fan bases in America before 2001. So they may have more than their share of "bandwagon" fans.

[WelshWizard]

Originally Posted by VPI97

It's less about the fact that the Patriots have a similar history to the Yankees and more about the fact that both Yankee fans and Patriot fans come off as assholes.

So i guess when you look up the word winner in the dictionary it defines it as being an asshole???

Where are your facts that Pats fans come off as assholes? every supported team in any sport has its fare share of assholes, it is society as we know it but to single out Pats fans as assholes is rediculous.

[Raiders Army]

In recent years, I've thought the Redskins and Yankees held more likenesses due to their spending to get big names or the "flava" of the month.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by WelshWizard

So i guess when you look up the word winner in the dictionary it defines it as being an asshole???

Where are your facts that Pats fans come off as assholes? every supported team in any sport has its fare share of assholes, it is society as we know it but to single out Pats fans as assholes is rediculous.

As far as I understand it, all fans have assholes...even if they have a colostomy bag.

[WelshWizard]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

As far as I understand it, all fans have assholes...even if they have a colostomy bag.

Good one!

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by WelshWizard

So i guess when you look up the word winner in the dictionary it defines it as being an asshole???...

Close.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=winner

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by WelshWizard

So i guess when you look up the word winner in the dictionary it defines it as being an asshole???

Where are your facts that Pats fans come off as assholes? every supported team in any sport has its fare share of assholes, it is society as we know it but to single out Pats fans as assholes is rediculous.

So we should not single out Yankee fans either? The sporting public may cease to exists if we can't do that.

[WelshWizard]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

So we should not single out Yankee fans either? The sporting public may cease to exists if we can't do that.

Well i didn't say that. Lets not get carried away .

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

So we should not single out Yankee fans either? The sporting public may cease to exists if we can't do that.

Yankees fans aren't assholes, they're just pathetic.

[Schmidty]

Patriots who?

Not even on my radar, and I couldn't care less if they existed or not.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by VPI97

It's less about the fact that the Patriots have a similar history to the Yankees and more about the fact that both Yankee fans and Patriot fans come off as assholes.

Nah, it's just that the Pats are winners for the most part, and others view through their visors of jealousy and see bad fans.

But, then again, as a Chokie fan, you're not used to being around winners, are you? (kidding, kidding)

[molson]

Originally Posted by VPI97

It's less about the fact that the Patriots have a similar history to the Yankees and more about the fact that both Yankee fans and Patriot fans come off as assholes.

You live in Georgia? How many Patriots fans do you come in contact with that haven't just jumped the bandwagon the last few years? Maybe you just hate Northerners?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by molson

You live in Georgia? How many Patriots fans do you come in contact with that haven't just jumped the bandwagon the last few years?

I would suspect practically none. Heck, growing up in New England I probably knew more Giants fans than Patriots fans.

[jeff061]

Yep, looking over this thread(and most others), it's definitely the Pats fans that are obnoxious .

[Vinatieri for Prez]

As its been stated. Winning teams are hated if you are not a fan of the team. I do it all the time. In 2003, I was cheering hard for the Buckeyes against Miami. Why? They were the underdog. Then this year I was cheering hard for Florida against the Buckeyes. Why? They were the underdog. And this is the same Florida team I was cheering hard against back in the 1990s as they drove on to their National Championship. I cheered against the Packers and the Cowboys in the 90s and against the 49ers in the 80s.

I really do think that's what it comes down to. For that reason, I fully understand non-Pats fans cheering against the Pats hard.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

My guess is that the Patriots had one of the smallest fan bases in America before 2001. So they may have more than their share of "bandwagon" fans.

That perhaps could be it. I never thought of the Steelers fans as being generally assholes. Or 49er fans. Cowboys fans were close, but a lot of that was the bandwagon jumping. Fans of dynasties that have been lifelong fans generally don't irritate me. Those jumping on and acting with all the bravado do.

And basically, I don't disagree too much with VPI, I just was trying to say it in a nicer way.

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

That perhaps could be it. I never thought of the Steelers fans as being generally assholes. Or 49er fans. Cowboys fans were close, but a lot of that was the bandwagon jumping. Fans of dynasties that have been lifelong fans generally don't irritate me. Those jumping on and acting with all the bravado do.

And basically, I don't disagree too much with VPI, I just was trying to say it in a nicer way.

Thats funny, most of the 49ers fans I know jumped on during the Montana/Young days. Young fans tend to attach themselves to winners.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

That perhaps could be it. I never thought of the Steelers fans as being generally assholes. Or 49er fans. Cowboys fans were close, but a lot of that was the bandwagon jumping. Fans of dynasties that have been lifelong fans generally don't irritate me. Those jumping on and acting with all the bravado do.

I'm a Steelers fan, and I think most of us are assholes. But, for the most part, we're not bandwagon fans.

I hate bandwagon fans. That's one of the reasons I hate the Patriots (the others being Golden Boy Tom Brady, Bill Belichick, and the fact that they got rid of one of my favorite logos in sports for the Flying Elvis).

[Karim]

I like Belichek (sp?), Brady and can't stand Manning. Yeah, I hope the Pats win the SB.

[Synovia]

Every team has bandwagon fans, and the steelers probably have more than the Pats.

Remember how well the steelers "travel?" Most of that is out of area fans, most of whom are bandwagon fans.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

That perhaps could be it. I never thought of the Steelers fans as being generally assholes. Or 49er fans. Cowboys fans were close, but a lot of that was the bandwagon jumping. Fans of dynasties that have been lifelong fans generally don't irritate me. Those jumping on and acting with all the bravado do.

And basically, I don't disagree too much with VPI, I just was trying to say it in a nicer way.

I'm convinced that 90% of the Pats "diehards" couldn't name the QB before Tom Brady (this from living in Boston). The Red Sox are a love affair - the Pats are a passing fashion.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by Synovia

Every team has bandwagon fans, and the steelers probably have more than the Pats.

Remember how well the steelers "travel?" Most of that is out of area fans, most of whom are bandwagon fans.

How do you figure? I see Steelers fans all the time, even when they aren't doing well. Don't forget, prior to last year the last Super Bowl they won was in 1980. Those aren't bandwagon fans. A lot of people might have become Steelers fans because of the 1970s, but they have remained loyal to the team. Hence the large number of fans at road games.

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

I'm convinced that 90% of the Pats "diehards" couldn't name the QB before Tom Brady (this from living in Boston). The Red Sox are a love affair - the Pats are a passing fashion.

Cmon, everyone could name Bledsoe.


Most couldnt name the guy before him though(grogan), or the guy who Brady leapfrogged on the depth chart in 2001(Damon Huard)

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

How do you figure? I see Steelers fans all the time, even when they aren't doing well. Don't forget, prior to last year the last Super Bowl they won was in 1980. Those aren't bandwagon fans. A lot of people might have become Steelers fans because of the 1970s, but they have remained loyal to the team. Hence the large number of fans at road games.

They became fans because of the superbowl runs. That means they were bandwagon fans. They just didnt jump off when the team started doing poorly.Who says the new Pats fans will?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Synovia

Cmon, everyone could name Bledsoe.


Most couldnt name the guy before him though(grogan), or the guy who Brady leapfrogged on the depth chart in 2001(Damon Huard)

Grogan was not the guy before Bledsoe, Grogan was gone for a long time when they drafted Bledsoe. I believe Hugh Millen was the guy Bledsoe replaced.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Grogan was not the guy before Bledsoe, Grogan was gone for a long time when they drafted Bledsoe. I believe Hugh Millen was the guy Bledsoe replaced.

HA HA! That was just classic .

Hugh Millen was the starting QB before Bledsoe. Grogan's last year with the Pats was 1990, though Marc Wilson was the starter then while Grogan was a backup.

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Grogan was not the guy before Bledsoe, Grogan was gone for a long time when they drafted Bledsoe. I believe Hugh Millen was the guy Bledsoe replaced.

Check your stats

Grogan played till 1990. 1991 and 1992 were basically quarterback by commitee with everyone from Millen, to Scott Zolak getting legitimate time. Bledsoe was drafted in 93. So I'd say Grogan was the last QB before bledsoe.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Synovia

Check your stats

Grogan played till 1990. 1991 and 1992 were basically quarterback by commitee with everyone from Millen, to Scott Zolak getting legitimate time. Bledsoe was drafted in 93. So I'd say Grogan was the last QB before bledsoe.

No, he's right. In 1991, Millen had 409 attempts while Tom Hodson had 68 attempts. In 1992, either Millen got benched or hurt, so he only had 203 attempts, Zolak had 100 attempts, and Hodson had 91 attempts with Jeff Carlson with 49 attempts.

409 attempts in a season is enough to make the QB for a team.

[st.cronin]

All I know is I watched way too many games with Hugh Millen as the QB back then. Holy god, that guy was awful.

[molson]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

All I know is I watched way too many games with Hugh Millen as the QB back then. Holy god, that guy was awful.

He did have some memorable games in Dick McPherson's first year as coach. The Pats went 6-10 that year and I remember everyone in Boston was fired up. That was a successful year back then.

[Synovia]

Plummer threw 350 this year, and he certainly wasnt the guy.


Millen was a stopgap. He was never meant to be the starter.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by molson

He did have some memorable games in Dick McPherson's first year as coach. The Pats went 6-10 that year and I remember everyone in Boston was fired up. That was a successful year back then.

There was definitely some Millen-hype at one point. But it was pretty delusional, sort of like the Cubs getting all excited about Kyle Orton last year.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Synovia

Plummer threw 350 this year, and he certainly wasnt the guy.

Millen was a stopgap. He was never meant to be the starter.

Not true, after his first year as a starter, Boston was truly expecting a playoff run in year #2. People were genuinely excited about him. I spent a lot of time at the Pats training camp in Smithfield, RI before that second season, everyone definitly thought the Pats were back, with Millen leading the way.

Of course, then they went 2-14, fired McPherson and hired Parcels.

[molson]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

There was definitely some Millen-hype at one point. But it was pretty delusional, sort of like the Cubs getting all excited about Kyle Orton last year.

No question it was delusional - Boston was so desperate for the Pats to be good at that point, they were rallying around Hugh freaking Millen, and to a lesser extent, even Scott Zolak when he had a few good games the next year (remember how everyone loved how animated he and McPherson were after a win, running around and hugging everyone)?

Edit- And I'm pretty sure Grogan wasn't really the "starting QB" since the late 70s - I think Tony Eason came after him as well.

[st.cronin]

I'm sorry, I have completely forgotten about Scott Zolak. . My earliest Pats memories are with Ray Berry as the coach, and McPherson was quite the step down from him. I was a pretty depressed fan in those days.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Synovia

Plummer threw 350 this year, and he certainly wasnt the guy.

He most definately was for most of the year. Cutler played in 5 games. FIVE. Plummer started the others.