Holy crap! Vick-to-the-Raiders Rumor

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Synovia

What the hell you talking about? He LOST 5 in 2001, 6 in 2002, 1 in 2003, 7 in 2004, 6 in 2005, and 3 in 2006. That being said, [b]fumble recoveries are random. Fumbles are not.[b]

Hey now!!! Let's not try to introduce logic into the equation or the pro-Vick group will never have a chance.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Of course the per sack number will be better when you get sacked so many more times in a season, and for someone who is supposed to be such a great runner...

Umm.. of course?

Do you understand how rates work?

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Hey now!!! Let's not try to introduce logic into the equation or the pro-Vick group will never have a chance.

VPI conceded that the numbers he were looking at were inaccurate (He believes because ESPN only posts rushing fumbles)... Deattribution, however, has not conceded that he posted completely false stats.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by VPI97

That's how I tend to see it. I know everyone likes to tout passer rating, but AFAIK, the only place I've seen QB's evalued in both rushing and passing is here. That's jives with your 'all but 10' statement.

And that list relatively closely approximates the list of teams I would come up with.

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by wade moore

However, let's really frame them correctly as I have done above. His stats are clearly NOT out of line with other NFL QB's. If you have some stats that tell differently, please present them. I'm by no means a major Vick fan, I just don't like seeing people throwing out misleading/deceptive information.

He averages a 53% completion percentage. Thats 10% below nearly every top level NFL quarterback.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Umm.. of course?

Do you understand how rates work?

Yeah, do you?

If a quarerback fumbles 4 times in a season during the 16 times he was sacked (becasue he has pocket pressence), I guess you would rather have the one that fumbled 10 times in 50 sacks because he held the ball too long. Hey, the per sack rate is better....

[EagleFan]

dola: lol, that's like someone arguing that because player A hit a homerun on his first at bat of his career he is better than Hank Aaron, hey his per at bat rate is better....

[rkmsuf]

Part of the problem for Vick continues to be that he never has to take the blame fully for the team's failing. Sure he takes individual criticism and his answer? Point to his personal stats as to backing up his competance.

Coaches have come and gone and the team continues to hover around .500. I can't believe that Atlanta fans can be happy with staking your claim with this guy only to come to realize that he's not the answer you'd think a franchise guy would be. He's not McNabb, not Manning, not Brady, not Brees, not Rivers, not Palmer, not even Vince Young. How can you be surprised when the guy is put under immense pressure when this is regime #3.

I'd love to really see how the guy prepares and tries to make himself a better player. If he's going full bore then I give him a pass in terms of making to most of his skills. I have a hard time believing from the outside he's a commited leader and someone who lives to win games as the QB of the team.

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by wade moore

VPI conceded that the numbers he were looking at were inaccurate (He believes because ESPN only posts rushing fumbles)... Deattribution, however, has not conceded that he posted completely false stats.

What completely false stats did I post?

What I said was VPI seems to think is by getting incorrect information off the internet somehow makes his post less misleading than someone else getting incorrect information off the internet. Unfortunately, It's the same. Just because he's trying to do it in Vick's favor doesn't make it any less misleading.

I couldn't be bothered to go through all the garbage that has been posted, but anyone is welcome to go into the last discussion over this (I can't remember the exact thread now, I think it was about some other QB) and see the same garbage spewed out by the same 2 or 3 people supporting Vick.

edit to add - I remember now rkmsuf's post reminded me. The last argument over this was in the thread over Vick talking about his numbers and how he had a good season.

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by VPI97

That's how I tend to see it. I know everyone likes to tout passer rating, but AFAIK, the only place I've seen QB's evalued in both rushing and passing is here. That's jives with your 'all but 10' statement.

Now consider this: This was Vick's best year as a player, and he didnt crack the top 10.

and he takes up more cap than every single player above him. For Vick to be worth his cap hit, he has to be in the top 3, not sitting down there with the likes of David Garrard.

[larrymcg421]

John Elway through 6 seasons..

QB Rating: 73.6 (Vick 75.7)
Completion%: 54.3 (Vick 53.8)
Yards Per Attempt: 6.8 (Vick 6.7)
Attempts per TD: 26.01 (Vick 24.36)
Attempts per Int: 27.65 (Vick 33.26)
Rushing Yards: 1431 (Vick 3859)
Rushing TD: 8 (Vick 21)

Clearly Vick has absolutely no chance to improve and become a Hall of Fame QB. The city of Atlanta should dump him just like the Broncos should have done to Elway.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Yeah, do you?

If a quarerback fumbles 4 times in a season during the 16 times he was sacked (becasue he has pocket pressence), I guess you would rather have the one that fumbled 10 times in 50 sacks because he held the ball too long. Hey, the per sack rate is better....

You seem to be blaming Vick for getting sacked. You put no fault onto the Atlanta offensive line for those numbers?

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

I'd love to really see how the guy prepares and tries to make himself a better player. If he's going full bore then I give him a pass in terms of making to most of his skills. I have a hard time believing from the outside he's a commited leader and someone who lives to win games as the QB of the team.

HE DOESNT. And thats the whole goddamn problem. He admitted this year that he had NEVER watched tape of himself. He admitted he usually doesnt watch other teams game tapes. Whatever physical skills he has, he just doesnt have the desire/understanding/brainpower to be an NFL quarterback.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Synovia

He averages a 53% completion percentage. Thats 10% below nearly every top level NFL quarterback.

Yes, this is a problem. Unfortunately you cannot quantify drops and bad receivers. I would argue that he has one of the bottom 5 receiving corps in the NFL and probably one of the bottom 10 Pass-Blocking lines. But unfortunately, I cannot quantify that. That being said - I do believe that with better WR's and coaching, that this will improve.

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Yeah, do you?

If a quarerback fumbles 4 times in a season during the 16 times he was sacked (becasue he has pocket pressence), I guess you would rather have the one that fumbled 10 times in 50 sacks because he held the ball too long. Hey, the per sack rate is better....

High Apple, meet Orange.

Your statement was that "of course" the fumble rate goes down if he gets sacked more. There is absolutely no guaranteed relationship between the two. If he's a "fumbler" his rate should stay the same as he gets sacked more. If he's not, it won't.

If you want to argue that he gets sacked too much, fine, but it has nothing to do with his fumble rate.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Synovia

HE DOESNT. And thats the whole goddamn problem. He admitted this year that he had NEVER watched tape of himself. He admitted he usually doesnt watch other teams game tapes. Whatever physical skills he has, he just doesnt have the desire/understanding/brainpower to be an NFL quarterback.

Well, that's a problem then.

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by VPI97

You seem to be blaming Vick for getting sacked. You put no fault onto the Atlanta offensive line for those numbers?

Rushing QBs get sacked more than pocket passers because they hold onto the ball longer. I've watched a lot of Vick, and generally, when he gets sacked, its 6 seconds + into the play. He absolutely REFUSES to throw the ball away when he should.... That was the whole problem with Culpepper this year: He was holding onto the ball like a rushing QB but couldnt get out of the way because of the knee.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

What completely false stats did I post?

My apologies. I went back to quote it for you. It was Synovia, not you who stated that in his worst season Vick had 11 lost fumbles.

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Yes, this is a problem. Unfortunately you cannot quantify drops and bad receivers. I would argue that he has one of the bottom 5 receiving corps in the NFL and probably one of the bottom 10 Pass-Blocking lines. But unfortunately, I cannot quantify that. That being said - I do believe that with better WR's and coaching, that this will improve.

Why? They've brought in new wide recievers. They've drafted first rounders. They've traded for highly ranked free agents. Nothing changed. They've Been through three coaching regimes, and nothing has changed. Einstein defined Insanity as "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." Its insane to believe that anything but Vick is the problem with Vick. They've replaced everything else multiple times.

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by wade moore

My apologies. I went back to quote it for you. It was Synovia, not you who stated that in his worst season Vick had 11 lost fumbles.

No problem, I thought you had us confused

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by wade moore

My apologies. I went back to quote it for you. It was Synovia, not you who stated that in his worst season Vick had 11 lost fumbles.

NO, I said he had fumbled 11 times. Fumbles are non predictive. Its completely luck as to which way the ball bounces. A fumble is no better a play on your part if your lineman recovers it, or the other team's lineman recovers it. Its luck.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Synovia

Why? They've brought in new wide recievers. They've drafted first rounders. They've traded for highly ranked free agents. Nothing changed. They've Been through three coaching regimes, and nothing has changed. Einstein defined Insanity as "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." Its insane to believe that anything but Vick is the problem with Vick. They've replaced everything else multiple times.

Who gives a shit that the receivers were first rounders? That doesn't mean they're any good. See the Detroit Lions. Are you seriously arguing that the Falcons have a good receiving corps?

[stevew]

If we merged all of the Vick threads, we'd have a thread that would probably be the 2nd largest thread on the board behind maxFB.

[ISiddiqui]

Been through three coaching regimes? What, are you making up shit again? They've been through Dan Reeves and Jim Mora. Where's the third?

And Reeves was canned because Vick got injured. Vick's best year was under Reeves, then he got hurt, Doug Johnson showed that he and the talent around him was crap and they went 5-11.

And 'highly ranked free agents'? Maybe Peerless Price, though he turned out to be another Alvin Harper (pray tell me what Price has done since he left the Falcons). But who else? Ashley Lelie? Highly ranked? Are you shitting me?

And yeah, first rounders always end up being superstar recievers. I'm sure J.J. Stokes and Freddie Mitchell would agree with that statement.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Who gives a shit that the receivers were first rounders? That doesn't mean they're any good. See the Detroit Lions. Are you seriously arguing that the Falcons have a good receiving corps?

as good as reche caldwell and jabar gaffney

[PackerFanatic]

Reche Caldwell's eyes scare me.

And evidently, footballs scare him.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

as good as reche caldwell and jabar gaffney

And the adjusted QB ranking link that was given above puts Brady at 11th this year. One spot ahead of Vick.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

And the adjusted QB ranking link that was given above puts Brady at 11th this year. One spot ahead of Vick.

so?

[MalcPow]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

John Elway through 6 seasons..

QB Rating: 73.6 (Vick 75.7)
Completion%: 54.3 (Vick 53.8)
Yards Per Attempt: 6.8 (Vick 6.7)
Attempts per TD: 26.01 (Vick 24.36)
Attempts per Int: 27.65 (Vick 33.26)
Rushing Yards: 1431 (Vick 3859)
Rushing TD: 8 (Vick 21)

Clearly Vick has absolutely no chance to improve and become a Hall of Fame QB. The city of Atlanta should dump him just like the Broncos should have done to Elway.

Not to cloud the issue, it's a good debate, but Elway took the Broncos to the Super Bowl in years 4, 5, and 7. Trade discussions for Vick probably wouldn't be happening if he had done the same.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Synovia

Why? They've brought in new wide recievers. They've drafted first rounders. They've traded for highly ranked free agents. Nothing changed. They've Been through three coaching regimes, and nothing has changed. Einstein defined Insanity as "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." Its insane to believe that anything but Vick is the problem with Vick. They've replaced everything else multiple times.

Yeah, they've done all of this. But were any of the receivers GOOD? Umm... no. They brought in Price who was obviously just not that talented of a receiver anymore - proven by the fact that he became roster filler after leaving the Falcons. No 1st round WR has proven themselves for the Falcons. The WR's that have had decent performance have gotten hurt. Name me 1 WR that the Falcons have had over Vick's tenure that you would want as one of your top 2 or 3 WR's on your team.

Originally Posted by Synovia

NO, I said he had fumbled 11 times. Fumbles are non predictive. Its completely luck as to which way the ball bounces. A fumble is no better a play on your part if your lineman recovers it, or the other team's lineman recovers it. Its luck.

No one counts Fumbles vs. Fumbles Lost as the key stats.

But, let's be fair about this then. You're throwing out that he had 11 fumbles in his best seasons. Brady has had 11 or more 4 times in his career. Favre 4 times in his career... I could keep going, but you see my point. And these guys don't get hit while holding the ball (b/w sacks and runs) nearly as much as Vick does.

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by VPI97

That's how I tend to see it. I know everyone likes to tout passer rating, but AFAIK, the only place I've seen QB's evalued in both rushing and passing is here. That's jives with your 'all but 10' statement.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb.php Much better analysis of QBs based on rushing and passing. Defense adjusted Points above replacement. Vick is ranked #37 in the league. Thats right, there are bench players ranked above him. Why? Because he puts up a ton of yards in 3rd and long situations. 3rd and 25? Vick rushes for 18. 3rd and 10? Vick will get your for 8. Theyre useless yards. 3rd and 3? He'll hold onto the ball too long and get sacked.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Synovia

Rushing QBs get sacked more than pocket passers because they hold onto the ball longer. I've watched a lot of Vick, and generally, when he gets sacked, its 6 seconds + into the play. He absolutely REFUSES to throw the ball away when he should.... That was the whole problem with Culpepper this year: He was holding onto the ball like a rushing QB but couldnt get out of the way because of the knee.

That's not exactly a new phenomenon for Culpepper. The man has the highest fumble rate in NFL history.

Vick - 55 Fumbles, 27 Lost 67 starts
Brady - 59 Fumbles, 25 Lost 94 starts
Manning - 31 Fumbles, 10 Lost 96 starts
Favre - 53 Fumbles, 25 Lost 96 starts
McNair - 45 Fumbles, 19 Lost 83 starts

Since 1999 - Culpepper - 89 Fumbles, 35 Lost 85 Starts

Originally Posted by Synovia

Vick has had 3 1st round WRs, and 2 free agent WRs who were good with their last teams. I dont think getting him Santana Moss and Steve Smith would make him work.... However.... getting him 3 big TEs and running heavy sets all the time might...

Originally Posted by Synovia

Why? They've brought in new wide recievers. They've drafted first rounders. They've traded for highly ranked free agents.

The receivers suck, as amply pointed out above by others. They drop more catchable balls than Reche Caldwell does against Indy. And that's after only watching 2 or 3 Falcons games this year.

[Synovia]

Wade, you can't say Vick's recievers are crap becaues most of them you can't seperate from VIck. Peerless Price had a 1400 yard season right before Vick. THeres no way to say the problem is the recievers, and not the QB. THeyre dependant.Lelie had a great year last year, and then dissapears as soon as he shows up in Atlanta. The thing is, his completion percentage has ALWAYS been 53%. The recievers havent changed a thing. FInneran was his favorite guy. When he gets hurt, does the comp % go down? NO. When Crumpler is hurt, does it go down? No. Its Vick. Hes the common denominator. And yeah, I've seen Detroit. Roy Williams is a top 10 in the league.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Name me 1 WR that the Falcons have had over Vick's tenure that you would want as one of your top 2 or 3 WR's on your team.

A healthy Brian Finneran? Couldn't be any worse than Jabar Gaffney or Troy Brown at this point. (All Reche Caldwell jokes aside, he had 61 catches this year, 41 for 1st downs, only 4 drops and then 16 catches in the postseason, marred by 2 ugly drops.)

[Synovia]

"Since 1999 - Culpepper - 89 Fumbles, 35 Lost 85 Starts" Extrapolate Vick's 27 in 67, and you get 34.2 fumbles lost. Here's the difference: Culpepper can actually pass.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by MalcPow

Not to cloud the issue, it's a good debate, but Elway took the Broncos to the Super Bowl in years 4, 5, and 7. Trade discussions for Vick probably wouldn't be happening if he had done the same.

Well I'm benot trying to argue that Vick is as good as Elway or will be better than Elway. I'm just pointing out that the numbers being presented against him don't really support the conclusion that he has been a bust and should be traded.

To be fair, Elway did an amazing job in the 86 postseason, working with an average defense. But in 87 and 89, he was working with top 10 defenses (the #1 defense in 89). Vick only had one top 10 defense, in 2002 (although it was 23rd if you use yards as the measure), and that was the year he led the Falcons to the only postseason road victory at Lambeau in league history. The other years his defenses were ranked 30th, 14th (conference championship year), 18th, and 16th.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Synovia

Peerless Price had a 1400 yard season right before Vick.

And after Atlanta? Gets cut by Dallas after being a 4th reciever and puts up crap numbers in Buffalo currently. He's Alvin Harper. He's no one special. He had Eric Moulds on the other side, and a pass heavy offense, and it was all good for him.

Lelie had a great year last year

Uh... 42 receptions for 770 yards is great now? You are thinking of 2004. In '05 he went back to his old ways.

The thing is, his completion percentage has ALWAYS been 53%. The recievers havent changed a thing. FInneran was his favorite guy. When he gets hurt, does the comp % go down?

You are lying again. In 2004, his completion percentage was 56.4%. In 2005, it was 55.3%.

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

A healthy Brian Finneran?

I'm sure Vick wished for that as well this year. He was by far the reciever he was most comfortable with.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Synovia

Wade, you can't say Vick's recievers are crap becaues most of them you can't seperate from VIck. Peerless Price had a 1400 yard season right before Vick. THeres no way to say the problem is the recievers, and not the QB. THeyre dependant.Lelie had a great year last year, and then dissapears as soon as he shows up in Atlanta. The thing is, his completion percentage has ALWAYS been 53%. The recievers havent changed a thing. FInneran was his favorite guy. When he gets hurt, does the comp % go down? NO. When Crumpler is hurt, does it go down? No. Its Vick. Hes the common denominator. And yeah, I've seen Detroit. Roy Williams is a top 10 in the league.

2006 doesn't seem dramatically off of 2005 imo. Looks to me like he had one good year, the rest mediocre.

He had 3 very solid seasons in Buffalo. Then a pretty decent season (as good as all but one of his seasons in Buffalo) in 2003. Then you see a precipitous drop in his play. not so good in 2004, couldn't even breakthrough in the Cowboys roster, and then starts all year for Buffalo and can't even match his 2004 numbers.

Keep in mind, i WANT Peerless to be good.. I bleed Tennessee Orange, but let's face it, the guy has just gone down hill in ability.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

A healthy Brian Finneran? Couldn't be any worse than Jabar Gaffney or Troy Brown at this point. (All Reche Caldwell jokes aside, he had 61 catches this year, 41 for 1st downs, only 4 drops and then 16 catches in the postseason, marred by 2 ugly drops.)

Reche Caldwell is not that good a good player. Scheme and accurate throws helped him accumulate the best stats of his career. On talent alone he's marginally above a street guy who by the way Gaffney is.

Both players could be Falcons at this point. I'd argue as Falcons they are regarded on the same level as current Falcon wideouts.

Put another way, trade receiving corps with the Pats and I'd suspect similar numbers from both teams. In fact Caldwell and Gaffney would be hard pressed to do much of anything on the Falcons team.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Synovia

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb.php Much better analysis of QBs based on rushing and passing.

Those numbers don't combine rushing and passing...they're separate listings...that's why I prefer the one I linked.

Because he puts up a ton of yards in 3rd and long situations. 3rd and 25? Vick rushes for 18. 3rd and 10? Vick will get your for 8. Theyre useless yards. 3rd and 3? He'll hold onto the ball too long and get sacked.

Actually, Vick earned 55 first downs on his 121 rushes last season and made a first down on 36% of his third down throws (75% of his third down completions went for a first).

For comparison's sake, Brady made a first down on 40% of his third down throws and 77.5% of his third down completions went for a first.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Synovia

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb.php Much better analysis of QBs based on rushing and passing. Defense adjusted Points above replacement. Vick is ranked #37 in the league. Thats right, there are bench players ranked above him. Why? Because he puts up a ton of yards in 3rd and long situations. 3rd and 25? Vick rushes for 18. 3rd and 10? Vick will get your for 8. Theyre useless yards. 3rd and 3? He'll hold onto the ball too long and get sacked.

Interesting analysis. I'm going to have to dig into the details of this formula more. In general I think Football Outsiders have good stats, so I don't doubt this stat has value. Especially since it has Manning far ahead of all other QB's ... But, before I can understand what it means to Vick, i need to read up on it more.

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

A healthy Brian Finneran? Couldn't be any worse than Jabar Gaffney or Troy Brown at this point. (All Reche Caldwell jokes aside, he had 61 catches this year, 41 for 1st downs, only 4 drops and then 16 catches in the postseason, marred by 2 ugly drops.)

FWIW, I would argue that the Pats are another member of the bottom 5. I think what you're saying is you'd rather Finneran than what you have, but on most NFL teams Finneran would not be a 1/2. That being said, he's not healthy, so Vick doesn't even have that.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Synovia

Wade, you can't say Vick's recievers are crap because most of them you can't seperate from Vick. Peerless Price had a 1400 yard season right before Vick. Theres no way to say the problem is the recievers, and not the QB. They're dependant. Lelie had a great year last year, and then dissapears as soon as he shows up in Atlanta. The thing is, his completion percentage has ALWAYS been 53%. The receivers haven't changed a thing. Finneran was his favorite guy. When he gets hurt, does the comp % go down? NO. When Crumpler is hurt, does it go down? No. Its Vick. He's the common denominator.

Price was a #2 and always has been. The only reason he got 1252 yards in 2002 was because Eric Moulds was getting the focus and teams were single covering Price. This year, back on Buffalo, he put up 402 yards. Lelie had 42 catches and 1 TD last year in Denver and is a one-dimensional deep threat who drops way too many balls. Taking away 2003's 5 game sample size, Vick has had Comp % of 54.9% (2002) 56.4% (2004) 55.3% (2005) and 52.6% (2006)

Go ahead and pretend his receivers are good or actually watch a Falcons game. They're not.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by VPI97

Those numbers don't combine rushing and passing...they're separate listings...that's why I prefer the one I linked.

I knew something looked funny. I see down below it has rushing numbers and Vick's DPAR is far better than any of the other QB's. Funny to see Manning as #6 though, wouldn't expect that.

I knew I needed to understand these a bit better.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Price was a #2 and always has been. The only reason he got 1252 yards in 2002 was because Eric Moulds was getting the focus and teams were single covering Price. This year, back on Buffalo, he put up 402 yards. Lelie had 42 catches and 1 TD last year in Denver and is a one-dimensional deep threat who drops way too many balls. Taking away 2003's 5 game sample size, Vick has had Comp % of 54.9% (2002) 56.4% (2004) 55.3% (2005) and 52.6% (2006)

Go ahead and pretend his receivers are good or actually watch a Falcons game. They're not.

You're just one of those typical Massachusetts Vick defenders.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Synovia

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb.php Much better analysis of QBs based on rushing and passing. Defense adjusted Points above replacement. Vick is ranked #37 in the league. Thats right, there are bench players ranked above him. Why? Because he puts up a ton of yards in 3rd and long situations. 3rd and 25? Vick rushes for 18. 3rd and 10? Vick will get your for 8. Theyre useless yards. 3rd and 3? He'll hold onto the ball too long and get sacked.

Or maybe not.

Check out Vick's situational stats. 82% of his rushing yards come on 1st and 2nd down. He only had 9 carries in situations where it was 3rd and greater than 8 yards, and got 141 yards on those carries. Certainly a few of those were first downs, and the others don't make nearly as much of his total as you're trying to claim.

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Keep in mind, i WANT Peerless to be good.. I bleed Tennessee Orange, but let's face it, the guy has just gone down hill in ability.

And that started with him playing with Vick.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Synovia

And that started with him playing with Vick.

I see. Vick broke Price.

That's an interesting theory.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Or maybe not.

Check out Vick's situational stats. 82% of his rushing yards come on 1st and 2nd down. He only had 9 carries in situations where it was 3rd and greater than 8 yards, and got 141 yards on those carries. Certainly a few of those were first downs, and the others don't make nearly as much of his total as you're trying to claim.

Synovia = pwned.

[rkmsuf]

2006: the year vick puts it all together

2007: the year vick puts it all together

2008: the year vick puts it all together - after all, year 2 of the new staff

2009: the year vick puts it all together

I love how the reported lack of preparation is just brushed aside and we are reduced to arguing about fumble rates and wide receivers.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Synovia

And that started with him playing with Vick.

I love it when people deliberately ignore other evidence already posted in a thread, such as the FACT that Price had already started to drop in productiont he year BEFORE he came to Atlanta. I also love that you're trying to make the argument that Vick is so bad that in one season he ruined Peerless Price for life.

[larrymcg421]

I coulda played in the NFL, but this one time I met Michael Vick and he threw me a pass. I was never the same again.