NHL:EHM Good and Bad news ..

[Izulde]

I'm also someone who enjoyed the freeware version a lot more than the EHM versions. I've tried the demo for the EHMs, but the FM interface really left me cold, so I didn't buy either one.

To be honest, I didn't buy the latest FM, either. Yes, there's a fun game there, but I like to play with as many leagues as possible, but at the same time, the ungodly slow simming speed means I have to play with a lot fewer leagues than I'd like to.

This leads to me feeling that I'm missing something and not getting as much enjoyment out of the game as I should. I also have always hated the 1-20 rating system and really wanted a 1-100 rating system.

[Honolulu Blue]

HB #2 here.

This is tragic, but I feel most badly for my evil twin. This was his dream game, and to have his dream taken away... just terrible.

[astrosfan64]

SI Games:

I'm not sure how to explain this but let me try. FM is simply the best text simmulation ever created out of all genre's. I mean it is a great game.

The sucess of FM and the rich feature set really has hurt my enjoyment of over text simmulations. I like soccer, but I LOVE BASKETBALL and HOCKEY. But, everytime I would start to play EHM or Total Pro Basketball I would stop about a day or two into it, because they simply did not have the same depth that FM included.

Playing a text sim is a commitment of time. If I'm going to take all that time and put myself in the world, I want the most feature complete game I can get my hands on.

The only reason I play FOF or Bowl Bound is that it is football. Football is way different then basketball, hockey or soccer. The game itself isn't free flowing, there is a chess like side to them in coach mode.

So your sucess of FM I believe, hampers the sucess of any similiar sport. Unless you create EHM with the same feature set of the current FM the end user always feels like they are playing FM from about 2 years ago instead of the new hockey game.

I think you guys are safe with baseball or even American Football because the sports are so different then Soccer, Hockey and Basketball.

Anyway, that is my two cents.

Oh, can you guys please just come out and say how many copies you sold?

One more question, how many total copies do you believe were pirated? Out of those copies pirated, what % do you believe would of bought the game if they couldn't of gotten the game pirated.

Actually I lied one more point.

League License and Player Names are not that important at all. If at all possible, I think you guys would be better off dropping all that stuff and just making your game with a lower development cost. I think eventually you guys would be ok. People would just create mods for both of those and it wouldn't even be an issue.

[Buccaneer]

I really wished I had not read about the warez downloads.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Honolulu Blue

HB #2 here.

This is tragic, but I feel most badly for my evil twin. This was his dream game, and to have his dream taken away... just terrible.

Thanks for looking out for me, HB! That's why you're the good twin.

[sabotai]

That makes me a sad panda.

[sabotai]

dola,

On the piracy issue, normally I'd agree that "piracy" as an excuse is just that, an excuse. However, from the sound of the original post, the latest game did as well in the US/Canada as the previous one, and did a notch below the previous one in most of Europe. Again, from the sound of it, the lack of the Scandinavian market killed the game, and from what we're getting from Coder, software piracy is a huge problem there, so I do believe that it was a large part of the problem.

Sadly, this is what happens when your product depends on making a killing in a small market. If that market doesn't show up, it doesn't matter that it does just as well everwhere else (and from the sound of it, EHM 2007 did), your product will die. No blame on SI as they don't control the markets, but it's sad to see it happen.

[sabotai]

double dola,

And if this latest patch fixes "The Great Decline", expect a new dynasty from me.

[Emiliano]

Originally Posted by wade moore

I never played EHM because I'm not a hockey fan, but unfortunate to see any game in the text sim genre go away, let alone when it is because of Pirating.

Ditto. Very sad.

[CraigSca]

Chalk me up as another guy saddened by this news.

I think I downloaded the demo a while ago, but never really got into the game so I never purchased. Really, it was a combination of lowered interest in the sport and too much going on in the game.

I know others love it, but I'm not a big fan of the FM interface. I've purchased FM sporadically, and while I appreciate its depth, I find the games interface and inherent slowness playing a factor in me not loading up the game.

Personally, I really don't understand the love affair of more and more leagues. Even in the FOF world I still hear a lot of "wouldn't it be great to have semi-pro football, too?" I look at it as a standard bang vs. buck issue. Yes, it would be great to have a really slick looking interface, but not if it's going to cause me frustration trying to get to some information that I want to access. Yes, it sounds cool to have semi-pro, Canadian, etc., football in a football sim, but not if a week of games takes 5 mins to sim.

The other issue surrounding the addition of more and more leagues is the player can quickly feel like he's losing control of the game. There's just only so much data a single person can comprehend and apply in a short period of time. Hey, it would be cool to have an Earth simulation with weather, population, wars, etc., but I think the only purchaser would be God, as He'd be the only one able to grasp it.

[CraigSca]

dola

...and it really disappoints me that one of the triggers behind this news is the pirating of the game. Why people think it's okay to steal is beyond me. You can get into excuses about MMORPGs and the fact there are just so many releases out there ("there's so much candy in the candy store, I just HAD to take some, officer!"), but the bottom line is you're stealing. People dehumanize it to make themselves feel better, but it's just a lousy excuse so you don't have to be responsible for your garbage behavior.

[Maple Leafs]

My inability to get into the SI version of EHM was probably my biggest surprise in terms of gaming. On paper it was the perfect game for me, but I could just never get going with it. Too detailed, too slow, too cumbersome for my personal playing style (and no doubt just right for others -- that's just how it goes).

Still sad news.

[Coder]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

dola

...and it really disappoints me that one of the triggers behind this news is the pirating of the game. Why people think it's okay to steal is beyond me. You can get into excuses about MMORPGs and the fact there are just so many releases out there ("there's so much candy in the candy store, I just HAD to take some, officer!"), but the bottom line is you're stealing. People dehumanize it to make themselves feel better, but it's just a lousy excuse so you don't have to be responsible for your garbage behavior.

I hope you also read that I mentioned it as a potential REASON, I wasn't making any excuses for it.

Bottom line is that piracy won't go away.. to battle piracy, software companies (and record labels) need to re-consider their strategies and pricing-policys.

[duff88]

This may look ridiculous to some of you, but this is a real question and I hope someone may answer honestly:

Why can OOTP get away with no pirate version of the game being available anywhere while EHM got pirated as soon as it came out? Could there have been a way the developpers of EHM to prevent piracy?

[Icy]

Originally Posted by duff88

This may look ridiculous to some of you, but this is a real question and I hope someone may answer honestly:

Why can OOTP get away with no pirate version of the game being available anywhere while EHM got pirated as soon as it came out? Could there have been a way the developpers of EHM to prevent piracy?

As i said before, OOTP was not released physically in a CD/DVD while EHM was. I have not seen ever an elicense game pirated while you can find all the CD/DVD games in any torrent site. The future of the games will be online distribution as the music and movies industry is starting to realize too.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Coder

Bottom line is that piracy won't go away.. to battle piracy, software companies (and record labels) need to re-consider their strategies and pricing-policys.

I think the strategy has been "reconsidered", to "this isn't worth the cost anymore".

So much for the whole "pirates just mean more salez, so pirating roxors" argument.

[JPhillips]

I just did a search on TorrentSpy and found EHM and FM2007, but no OOTP. If it's true that SI could stop pirating with a download only release it means that pirating wasn't the only reason for killing the game. I believe Marc Vaughan admitted this earlier by saying it was a contributing cause.

I'm not trying to defend piracy here, but if SI could take steps to stop or drastically reduce piracy but chose not to there's obviously more going on with the decision to kill EHM.

[duff88]

I've seen a lot of people talk about it, but I'll say it anyway since this is (was) an important issue.

I live in a Canadian city named Chicoutimi in Quebec where there are tons of hockey fans, but I've never, ever heard one single person talk about Eastside Hockey Manager. I know SI is based in europe, but the Canadian market is probably the one that needs to be gained if you want to optimize sales and it certainly couldn't work with the way nobody even knew about the game.

Meanwhile, there was this other Hockey Manager game named "GM Hockey Renaissance" which was only average and it didn't even come close to the freeware EHM, yet I saw it on TV and I heard people talking about it, so there definitely would have been interest for EHM.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

So much for the whole "pirates just mean more salez, so pirating roxors" argument.

I don't think this was ever an argument in the gaming world, only in the music world. Pirating could (in theory) bring more people to the concerts and encourage people to buy other entries in the artist's catalog, but there is no real parallel to the gaming world.

Having said that, I don't think you can claim any benefits to pirating, other than personal benefits to the pirate. I do believe, however, that while pirating is more harmful than the average pirate believes, it is probably less harmful than the gaming/recording industry believes.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by duff88

yet I saw it on TV ...

Now this little tidbit just fascinates the hell out of me. Did you "see it on TV" as in they were running commercials for it? Or was it mentioned in passing on a hockey program of some sort? Or ... well, I dunno what else but anything's possible.

The economics of doing tv spots for a game of this nature would make a standard commercial one of the most unlikely things I've ever heard of advertising, so I'm really curious about the details if you happen to remember.

[Carman Bulldog]

From my understanding EHM 2007 was never available in a DVD/CD format so I'm not sure how it would have been pirated. While this could be true for previous versions, this piracy argument does not hold any water for this years version.

The biggest problem was they they were trying to be too much to too many people. I'm privileged enough to work in the hockey industry and made a number of suggestions on how to improve and make the Canadian Hockey League aspect more realistic and entertaining. Unfortunately, those often fell by the wayside.

I think that the league was kind of looked at as unimportant. Well, the league was included, fixing stuff and adding stuff never seemed like a high priority.

If the game wanted to be big in North America (and specifically Canada) it needed to focus on these aspects. I think a game with only the NHL, AHL and CHL (and potentially the ECHL) would have been more appealing.

The name is awful from a marketing perspective too. I understand the roots and have been a fan of the old EHM since before 1.0 but it's tough to sell NHL:EHM Manager.

[FrogMan]

Originally Posted by duff88

I've seen a lot of people talk about it, but I'll say it anyway since this is (was) an important issue.

I live in a Canadian city named Chicoutimi in Quebec where there are tons of hockey fans, but I've never, ever heard one single person talk about Eastside Hockey Manager. I know SI is based in europe, but the Canadian market is probably the one that needs to be gained if you want to optimize sales and it certainly couldn't work with the way nobody even knew about the game.

Meanwhile, there was this other Hockey Manager game named "GM Hockey Renaissance" which was only average and it didn't even come close to the freeware EHM, yet I saw it on TV and I heard people talking about it, so there definitely would have been interest for EHM.

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Now this little tidbit just fascinates the hell out of me. Did you "see it on TV" as in they were running commercials for it? Or was it mentioned in passing on a hockey program of some sort? Or ... well, I dunno what else but anything's possible.

The economics of doing tv spots for a game of this nature would make a standard commercial one of the most unlikely things I've ever heard of advertising, so I'm really curious about the details if you happen to remember.

Jon, read the quote again, duff seems to be talking about that GM hockey renaissance game which I'd never heard about before and seems to be developped by a Quebec group. That simply tells me it was probably featured by a French Canadian TV station in one of the numerous hockey shows we have on a weekly basis.

Sure, there might be a market in Quebec, but we're talking about 7M people here, let's not get all excited with how locally a local game can be talked about and how EHM could have done better.

I tried finding last year's EHM version in stores around here and I have to say I was very disappointed that nobody at the local EB Games and such game store had not even heard about it...

FM

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by duff88

I live in a Canadian city named Chicoutimi in Quebec where there are tons of hockey fans, but I've never, ever heard one single person talk about Eastside Hockey Manager. I know SI is based in europe, but the Canadian market is probably the one that needs to be gained if you want to optimize sales and it certainly couldn't work with the way nobody even knew about the game.

Do you get The Score (the channel with the perma-ticker, formerly Headline Sports) in Quebec? SI was all over that channel last year with sponsored segments.

[FrogMan]

dola, and that GM hockey renaissance thing has been in development since August 2005...

and their website suggest Baseball Mogul 2007 as a good game. Don't know what that tells you...

FM

[FrogMan]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Do you get The Score (the channel with the perma-ticker, formerly Headline Sports) in Quebec? SI was all over that channel last year with sponsored segments.

I do get The Score but I think I really am in the minority, if only due to my digital TV provider (Look TV). I'm unsure if it's available on analog cable, might be on other digital TV provider, hidden in some sports channels package...

FM

[Coder]

The Canadian market is where the money's at.. I can only look at the FHL-board and see that French Canadians especially just love their Hockey.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by FrogMan

I do get The Score but I think I really am in the minority, if only due to my digital TV provider (Look TV). I'm unsure if it's available on analog cable, might be on other digital TV provider, hidden in some sports channels package...

FM

FWIW, looks like they are in about half the TV households in Canada. They have 5.9 million distribution & there's a little over 12 million TV households in the country.

Given that cable has about 60%-65% penetration of the market (23% have satellite), that 5.9 million number might look better (in terms of their reach with cable) depending on whether they're available on satellite.

[FrogMan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

FWIW, looks like they are in about half the TV households in Canada. They have 5.9 million distribution & there's a little over 12 million TV households in the country.

Given that cable has about 60%-65% penetration of the market (23% have satellite), that 5.9 million number might look better (in terms of their reach with cable) depending on whether they're available on satellite.

I don't think your numbers can apply straight up to Quebec though. Remember, the province is majorly French speaking so not always inclined to subscribe to some English speaking channel of that sort. I can tell you that if I did a quick poll with my coworkers here, many of them big hockey and sports fans in general, I'd find less than 5% of them have ever heard of The Score. The province of Quebec is a world within a world in terms of television and entertainment.

FM

[FrogMan]

dola, obviously, I don't have hard numbers to back my claim, simply how I feel from talking with people.

FM

[Coder]

Hockey-game related question to everyone

I've seen many posts here about people not being interested in "other leagues". From a "playing in"-perspective I'm with you, but what about seeing junior players before they're drafted and after they're drafted.

In hockey, most drafted players don't sign their pro-contract right away, instead they stay in their junior teams for 1-2 years. Are you saying you're not interested in seeing their statistics from those leagues or are you just saying you don't want to play in those leagues?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by FrogMan

dola, obviously, I don't have hard numbers to back my claim, simply how I feel from talking with people.

Sometimes actually knowing a market tells the story better than the numbers anyway.

There's definitely some distribution in Quebec though, because the network's FAQ mentions how contests (which are apparently a regular feature in the ticker best I could figure out) aren't open to Quebec residents due to local laws.

[FrogMan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Sometimes actually knowing a market tells the story better than the numbers anyway.

As I said, Quebec is a market within the market, simply because of the language of many people. Take my sister and parents for example. They all speak a little English but none of them have your basic network stations (ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX) as part of their TV programming. So, "The Score"??? I doubt it. And they're not really dumb, I'd think they do represent the average Quebecer.

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

There's definitely some distribution in Quebec though, because the network's FAQ mentions how contests (which are apparently a regular feature in the ticker best I could figure out) aren't open to Quebec residents due to local laws.

It's standard procedure the moment something a contest might be seen by Quebec residents. As I said, I get the channel, so it's definitely available. I just checked on videotron.com, the main cable TV provider in Quebec, and it's also available on their digital cable lineup but not on their analogic cable lineup. And again, given the nature of the beast we're talking about, "available" does not equal "subscribed to".

FM

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by FrogMan

And again, given the nature of the beast we're talking about, "available" does not equal "subscribed to".

These days when cable networks talk about "available in", that's typically jargon for "number of household subscribers". Not always, but that's usually the case, as the two terms have evolved into being somewhat interchangable. Heck, I'd have to go back & look at their exact wording again to see whether that was their phrasing or mine.

Where that number quickly parts from reality is when you get down to "households where anybody watches or even knows/care that the network exists".

[FrogMan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

These days when cable networks talk about "available in", that's typically jargon for "number of household subscribers". Not always, but that's usually the case, as the two terms have evolved into being somewhat interchangable. Heck, I'd have to go back & look at their exact wording again to see whether that was their phrasing or mine.

then, there's probably a high percentage of that first figure you brought up that is all in English Canadian, I'd think...

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Where that number quickly parts from reality is when you get down to "households where anybody watches or even knows/care that the network exists".

and there you have it...

FM

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Izulde

I'm also someone who enjoyed the freeware version a lot more than the EHM versions. I've tried the demo for the EHMs, but the FM interface really left me cold, so I didn't buy either one.

To be honest, I didn't buy the latest FM, either. Yes, there's a fun game there, but I like to play with as many leagues as possible, but at the same time, the ungodly slow simming speed means I have to play with a lot fewer leagues than I'd like to.

This leads to me feeling that I'm missing something and not getting as much enjoyment out of the game as I should. I also have always hated the 1-20 rating system and really wanted a 1-100 rating system.

what he said

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Coder

Hockey-game related question to everyone

I've seen many posts here about people not being interested in "other leagues". From a "playing in"-perspective I'm with you, but what about seeing junior players before they're drafted and after they're drafted.

In hockey, most drafted players don't sign their pro-contract right away, instead they stay in their junior teams for 1-2 years. Are you saying you're not interested in seeing their statistics from those leagues or are you just saying you don't want to play in those leagues?

For me, it wasn't so much the idea of multiple leagues but the implementation. I'd love to see junior leagues and the AHL, and even the elite european leagues. I love the idea of EHM having things like the World Juniors that I can see my prospects play in. Again, on paper it's great.

But in practice, it slowed everything down so much that it was an annoyance. I don't just mean sim speed, either. My first EHM experience was getting an e-mail telling me that some prospect in Europe had received an offer in Switzerland, and what did I want to do about it? Beats me, since I've never heard of the guy and have no idea what was happening or why I was being informed. I think he ended up signing with the other team, and to this day I have no idea if that had any effect on my rights to him or anything else.

Again, though, this is for someone like me who likes to speed sim through a season in an hour or two. For someone more detail-oriented it could be a great feature.

[duff88]

I'll have to agree with what Frogman (Man, I hate your username) said; I don't know many people that have the Score arond here, and even less that watch it. I think the first time I heard someone talk about the network was when WWE Raw was transfered there from TSN.

BTW, the GM Hockey Renaissance TV spot was some kind of feature they showed during Sports 30 on RDS (French version of Sportscenter on TSN).

There was so much potential for this game in Canada...

[General Mike]

This sucks.

[Bea-Arthurs Hip]

I am very torn up about this. As much as I love FOF and FM , I have to say EHM is my favorite game/series of all time. I had such great hopes for this game.

I also have to admit that most of the reason I come to this forum everday is to look for EHM stories int he Dynasty forum, then to the Off Topic forum to see if Riz and the gang made an appearance. This is a blow to my little Sim world.

I dont know if The Hip is gonna make it through this....

what worse EHM gone or FPS FB gone?

[Pumpy Tudors]

In a really perverse way, I wish that jbmagic had made an "EHM looking good in preseason" post.

[NoSkillz]

What awful, awful news.

I've been working on Eastside in a research capacity since the freeware days and I've been a HR since Riz was hired by SI over four years ago.

It's truly been a wonderful experience watching the game develop into the best simulator of hockey ever built.

I wish all of the staffers at SI who worked on this labour of love (Riz, Graeme, Phil, Marc D) along with all the researchers (like JeffR, who frequents this board) the best of luck in the future. It's truly been my pleasure.

If you're interested in some (long-winded) backstory into how my participation came about, feel free to check out my blog post here.

[Cringer]

Came across this while looking through some tech sites I still go to for some reason...

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070131-8743.html

Company ends hockey-sim development due to piracy
1/31/2007 12:12:58 PM, by Eric Bangeman

Development of a popular hockey sim, Eastside Hockey Manager 2007, has come to a close due to widespread piracy. In a post on the Sports Interactive forums, SI Managing Director Miles Jacobson announced that while the latest version of Eastside Hockey Manager had garnered good reviews, piracy of the title had prevented it from hitting the break-even point.

Sports Interactive had made Eastside Hockey Manager 2007 available only via digital distribution in an attempt to give the game a wider reach in Europe and North America. Unfortunately for Sports Interactive, the end result was a hacked version of the game that was quickly distributed via BitTorrent.

"The orders came in a drizzle, rather than a flood," wrote Jacobson. "We scratched our heads trying to work out what had gone wrong. And then someone pointed out that the game was being pirated, and was available as a torrent from lots of different pirating sites. Then sat there and watched as the claimed amount of downloads on those sites went up and up, as sales stayed static."

The end result was a popular game that had "more licenses than any other hockey game in history," according to Jacobson, but was apparently so widely distributed over peer-to-peer networks that the company was not able to make back the development or licensing costs. Although Jacobson left open the possibility that SI may resurrect Eastside Hockey Manager in the future, he said that all development on the game has been halted and the programmers and others that worked on the title have been reassigned to other projects within the company.

We've been scratching our heads up here in the Orbiting HQ trying to think of other games that have been killed off due to piracy, and we couldn't think of any. There have been warnings before: in early 2004, Mac game developers and porting houses warned that increasing piracy could kill off the Mac game market. That hasn't happened, as Mac OS X game development has continued at its historic, anemic levels.

Putting aside for a minute the economic arguments about piracy and its effects on the record labels, movie studios, and big gaming development houses, it appears that for smaller, niche games, piracy can make or break a title. Development costs have been climbing at an increased rate over the past several years, and if file-sharing traffic makes it impossible for developers and publishers to recoup their costs, other titles could go the way of Eastside Hockey Manager.

[SirFozzie]

I'm sorry, piracy did not kill the EHM series.

A lack of sales did.

Two released games in a near beta state did.

The games are good.. EIGHT MONTHS Later.

How many sales do you make eight months after release?

This is why I'm starting to get really disappointed with the DDS:PB game.

It's time for developers big and small to learn one thing.

90% of your sales and reputation comes from your first 30 days.

Releasing a bug laden first release is nearly impossible to overcome, even if patches make the game better. By that point, a big part of your audience has tuned you AND your game out, for good.

[Joe Canadian]

Sadly I knew this was coming, or at least I had a good idea it was. A few months ago someone within SI, no need to mention any names, let me know sales were very low and that SI has been subsidizing EHM through FM sales since the start of the series.

Blaming this on piracy is an interesting spin to put on it, and while it might have been a contributing factor it's not the reason sales were low... we all know the reason for that. The games were released too early and unfinished. Don't get me wrong EHM 2007 is a great game, tonnes of promise, the guy's who made it are great... but there were too many bugs.

IMO, SI had to grab the North American market with this game for it to be successful, and that means getting people at places like FOFC or OOTPD to (a) buy the game, and (b) spread th word. And we all know how we react to unfinished games, we'll give it a pass the first time... but after a while we'll just stop buying the game on release and wait till the bugs are fixed... and eventually some might just ignore the series of games altogether. That's what happened here.

Call it EHM-hatred if you want, but that's just ignoring the problem... the problem wasn't that there were people out there who hated the game for no reason, it was that there were big issues with the game that people had problems with.

... anyways, I'm really sad this is the end of the line for EHM. SI is a great company that makes high quality games, it's too bad one of them isn't going to be hockey anymore.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

I'm sorry, piracy did not kill the EHM series.

A lack of sales did.

Two released games in a near beta state did.

The games are good.. EIGHT MONTHS Later.

How many sales do you make eight months after release?

This is why I'm starting to get really disappointed with the DDS:PB game.

It's time for developers big and small to learn one thing.

90% of your sales and reputation comes from your first 30 days.

Releasing a bug laden first release is nearly impossible to overcome, even if patches make the game better. By that point, a big part of your audience has tuned you AND your game out, for good.

Wow, pretty harsh words. I have no idea what goes on in game programming (and it appears neither do you), but newly released computer games ALWAYS have some type of game-killing bug that needs a first patch. Even FOF2K7 had some issues that made it largely unplayable until the first patch; and in some cases even more unplayable after the 3rd patch (anyone remember the red/green bars controversy?). Fact is, to be so critical of a company and claim that the downfall of a product is the sheer fault of bugs is foolish.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Wow, pretty harsh words. I have no idea what goes on in game programming (and it appears neither do you), but newly released computer games ALWAYS have some type of game-killing bug that needs a first patch. Even FOF2K7 had some issues that made it largely unplayable until the first patch; and in some cases even more unplayable after the 3rd patch (anyone remember the red/green bars controversy?). Fact is, to be so critical of a company and claim that the downfall of a product is the sheer fault of bugs is foolish.

And it really doesn't have to be this way. People just have to be willing to wait longer. As long as people buy the games in droves when it first hits the shelves, the companies have no incentive to work on them longer; the incentive is to get them out by a certain date to boost their sales figures.

[vtbub]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Wow, pretty harsh words. I have no idea what goes on in game programming (and it appears neither do you), but newly released computer games ALWAYS have some type of game-killing bug that needs a first patch. Even FOF2K7 had some issues that made it largely unplayable until the first patch; and in some cases even more unplayable after the 3rd patch (anyone remember the red/green bars controversy?). Fact is, to be so critical of a company and claim that the downfall of a product is the sheer fault of bugs is foolish.

Actually, I think Foz is dead on about this. For whatever reason, the expectation from developers, while not intentionial, is for us to be paying beta testers.

Why should I be spending $35-$50 on a game that isn't finished, or spend a discount to get a pre-order of a game that isn't finished? We, as consumers, are just as much to blame as the developers, because it's become accpeted that there will be multiple patches to a game.

IMHO, that's wrong. Look at the TDCB debacle. You had a game hyped to death. You had tons of of us with credit cards at the ready to buy it at it's release, and it was a dud, riddled with bugs that killed it.

Initial impressions are vital in any business. Look how quickly they pull TV shows off the air.

If there is enough potential in a release, we are patient enough to get the product that we want, or in FOF's case, the developer has a solid enough reputation that we are willing to wait it out.

Look at Maximum-Football. Do you think even if he developed what he promised that he could overcome the self inflicted blood bath that happened with that game?

Look at OOTP. There are promised features that have never come to fruition. There were noted bugs that were never fixed from version to version, yet more and more features were introduced and people bought it. Somehow, I knew that the switch over to SI would be a tough one the first year, so I didn't buy it. And judging by the reaction, I was right.

So here we are again, 6 million new features announced with smiley faces and the like and the orders will come. But, not from me. I've been fooled too many times, and I will not pay $34.95 to support a franchise that will have what it promises in March to be ironed out by September.

Without getting into the marketing issues with SI products over here, you could see why piracy was an issue. I was on a torrent site last night for a TV show and saw 5 or 6 diferent FM torrents on the first page.

(No, I didn't)

Bottom line, development processes need to be changed to work these kinks out before you come asking for money. Developers and consumers should be expecting finished products upon release that need tweaking at worst, not 95% finished products.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by vtbub

Why should I be spending $35-$50 on a game that isn't finished, or spend a discount to get a pre-order of a game that isn't finished? We, as consumers, are just as much to blame as the developers, because it's become accpeted that there will be multiple patches to a game.

You are right. This seems to go across all genres. The only games that seem to have an acceptable 'finished rate' to them when purchased are a lot of the games my son has, who is 6. Most of his stuff works like it should out of the box. It is almost never like that for anything I would buy. For various reasons, my funds for games are at an all-time low, so I am pickier than ever before. For this reason, I am not buying anything that isn't 'finished' according to both the developers and the customer base.

[Fidatelo]

Games are buggy on release because:
a) people want more and more features, which add complication, which leads to bugs; and
b) no one wants to pay more for games, which means timelines must remain static to ensure profitability, which in turn means there is not enough time to fix all the bugs.

There is a balance between time, features, and quality. If you don't include enough new features and focus strictly on quality, no one buys your product because they don't see enough value. If you spend too much time packing in features and not enough time making sure they work, people will revolt because the game is shite. And if you spend the proper amount of time needed to pack in a bunch of quality features, you probably lose money because no one will pay for that extra time spent.

[RedKingGold]

Someone name me a perfect game with zero flaws.

(and Tetris doesn't count )