Werewolf Ethics

[Blade6119]

Wasnt the issue that it wasnt a guest...both GE and ardent saw tryrith in their thread. Maybe im mistaken, but the issue wasnt over the guests in thread(which was people like DC). I didnt read after i died, so i dont know what happened to have him removed from the game. I just know of the situation that seemed to start this whole mess. And in regards to that, i think both parties handled it poorly. Ardent could have brought it up and asked without simply accusing him. Tyrith could have discussed it with him and kept it civil, instead of denying it and starting the name calling.

I will say my personal opinion of the story, in which tyrith claimed he was checking post counts in other tribes threads, is something that was against WW "ethics" for that game. Barkeep clearly said stick to your thread and the main thread, so i see no ethical reason for any player to be doing anything with other threads.

I stepped in a place i prob. shouldnt have and defended someone who most people dont think deserved it. I cant defend his later actions, whatever they were, but i do see why he and GE both were upset with tyrith and stand by my claims in that regard.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

I will say my personal opinion of the story, in which tyrith claimed he was checking post counts in other tribes threads, is something that was against WW "ethics" for that game. Barkeep clearly said stick to your thread and the main thread, so i see no ethical reason for any player to be doing anything with other threads.

Barkeep went on to say he wouldn't have had a problem with people checking post counts for threads

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Barkeep went on to say he wouldn't have had a problem with people checking post counts for threads

Yes. but tyrith did that before barkeep said it...and i somewhat, to be honest, felt barkeep was rightly just tryingt to defuse the situation. Barkeep is a wonderful GM/Mod, and were lucky to have such a level headed guy

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

Yes. but tyrith did that before barkeep said it...and i somewhat, to be honest, felt barkeep was rightly just tryingt to defuse the situation. Barkeep is a wonderful GM/Mod, and were lucky to have such a level headed guy

Agreed on the comments regarding BK's general wonderfulness, but I still don't see how looking at the post counts of a thread is a violation of game ethics. It would be one thing if it was specifically stated in the rules that it wasn't allowed, but I never got the impression that it was. And honestly, what knowledge can you get from the number of posts a person has? In a normal game it can tell you something, but in a game like Survivor? I don't think it tells us anything. Especially after reading some of the Oz thread where they were just posting so they could have a higher number of posts to throw off the other tribes.

[Blade6119]

I just felt the rules were explicit that the other threads were off-limits...whether or not you can glean any thing from the post counts is irrelevant im my mind. I felt the rules were clear, and i felt post counts were included in them. Barkeep would later say i was wrong, but im just stating what my view of the situation was

[Lathum]

I must admit I was tempted to look at post counts in threads but wasn't sure if that violated any rules so I didn't. That being said I think both parties could have handled it better and third parties should have stayed out of it all together.

That being said I hope AE and Tyrith can bury the hatchet like others ( myself includud) have in the past.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I must admit I was tempted to look at post counts in threads but wasn't sure if that violated any rules so I didn't. That being said I think both parties could have handled it better and third parties should have stayed out of it all together.

That being said I hope AE and Tyrith can bury the hatchet like others ( myself includud) have in the past.

Our hatchet has never been buried, my blood foe!

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

Our hatchet has never been buried, my blood foe!

I'll remember that when I make my day one vote next game

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

dola

Also, GE referred to cheating which I don't know what he was talking about, but it surely wasn't AE.

this was more him being pissed he was taken out by a wolf I believe.
I picked him. At the time we had to pick from my tribe (we didn't have immunity) it was him, you, or Path I believe that weren't in the original Helsing
It was a luck of the draw (or in his case bad luck)

As Far As AE goes, and I told him in a PM, some people get too caught up in WW games and let it consume them, they need to take a break, and take a step back and then come back. I could have cared less what he posted I actually kinda just ignored it really.

[Tyrith]

Blade, AE didn't even bother trying to do anything other than try and sentence me as a cheater before he even talked to anyone else. If you aren't willing to at least look at it from my perspective I'd much appreciate it if you would butt out.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

I'd like to note that 1 I'm still at work and 2 tyrith has been in my thread for the last 7 minutes.

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

Now he leaves. Busted, I hope he fries.

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

VB tags don't work here at work for some reason Wednesday. I'm getting run time errors before I can even post.

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

I have to click through about 8 run time errors while at work to post. Good news is I hope to be home in 3 hours time.

Originally Posted by Tyrith

So, um, I get my integrity assaulted by a guy that he has to go through 8 run time errors in order just to get a post off? I must ask a few questions:

1) Have I _EVER_ done anything to make it seem like I would cheat?
2) Do you think I would be so STUPID as to do such a thing?
3) How DARE you make such a claim when you admit you are having REPEATED FLAGRANT ERRORS! For all I know you accidentally came on to OUR thread and have been watching US!

Screw you AE, screw you.

.

[KWhit]

That's a pretty convenient place to stop posting what was said.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by Tyrith

Blade, AE didn't even bother trying to do anything other than try and sentence me as a cheater before he even talked to anyone else. If you aren't willing to at least look at it from my perspective I'd much appreciate it if you would butt out.

Originally Posted by KWhit

That's a pretty convenient place to stop posting what was said.

.

[Lathum]

I think we need to consider this in regards to the survivor game.

What would a single person stand to gain from cheating? That person would have to come back to their tribe with this "inside information" and explain how they got it, thus outing themselve to 4-5 other people who probably wouldn't appreciate their technique.

[Lathum]

AE- I'm not really sure what you are hinting at, if you have something to say I suggest you either say it or PM Tyrith because this has the potential to get worse before it gets better.

[Poli]

I've probably said or quoted too much already. *Shurg*.

My point is, Tyrith went off the deep end before I did. Sure, I said, I hope he fries, but it wasn't to the extent of, "Tyrith is a low down stinking cheater, I hope he fries. I can't believe he had the nerve to cheat. How dare he come into our thread and do that!!1!"

Sentence as a cheater? He was seen in our thread by two players. In the end, he was a wolf as well. I was looking for some sort of penalty. It wasn't one of those "oops I popped in accidentally" that had happened all game.

I really wasn't completely agitated until the, "How DARE you, screw you AE, screw you" bit. That's why I added the two posts between the accusation and tyrith's take. I wasn't upset.

What upset me is he was seen in our thread, yet comes out throwing daggers at me. I mean, if you were in my shoes, you'd probably be upset as well.

Now I went overboard after what Tyrith said. I get heated, I'll admit it, especially when I know I'm right. I've apologized to all involved and even those not. I may never play this game again as a penalty. So be it.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I think we need to consider this in regards to the survivor game.

What would a single person stand to gain from cheating? That person would have to come back to their tribe with this "inside information" and explain how they got it, thus outing themselve to 4-5 other people who probably wouldn't appreciate their technique.

This is not a bad point, but its not automatic that cheaters would automatically want to share information with their tribe.

I actually think the Survivor game would have benefitted from some cheating. Imagine if BK had said something like "you are not allowed to read other tribe's threads - if you are caught, your tribe will suffer a penalty." I think that would have made for an interesting dynamic.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Tyrith

Blade, AE didn't even bother trying to do anything other than try and sentence me as a cheater before he even talked to anyone else. If you aren't willing to at least look at it from my perspective I'd much appreciate it if you would butt out.

Why dont you ask those who arent looking at things from ardents side to butt out? Ill try to stay out of this argument, but dont pretend everyone else is being totally fair here. You just dont seem to care about them because their on your side of the argument. Both sides were in the wrong in this argument, and that is what i think anyone who truly looks will see. Ive stated this a few times now, more then most of the people your not calling out.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

Both sides were in the wrong in this argument, and that is what i think anyone who truly looks will see.

QFT

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I think we need to consider this in regards to the survivor game.

What would a single person stand to gain from cheating? That person would have to come back to their tribe with this "inside information" and explain how they got it, thus outing themselve to 4-5 other people who probably wouldn't appreciate their technique.

Or he could use it in discussions with his fellow wolves, seeing as how he was evil, and no normal player(even his tribe) would be all the wiser. That was what i saw it as when it went down, but i was killed before i could do anything to get him killed.

So in regards to this game, i dont think you can overlook the fact he was the head wolf in the game.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

Or he could use it in discussions with his fellow wolves, seeing as how he was evil, and no normal player(even his tribe) would be all the wiser. That was what i saw it as when it went down, but i was killed before i could do anything to get him killed.

So in regards to this game, i dont think you can overlook the fact he was the head wolf in the game.

but you can apply the same concept. At some point a cheater would have to come up with how they got their information...

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

So in regards to this game, i dont think you can overlook the fact he was the head wolf in the game.

Honestly this statement annoys me. His role is irrelavent, Tyrith was cleared of any wrongdoing by Barkeep and the reason why he was in the thread was discovered. If some reasearch had been done prior to both parties imploding we could have avoided the whole situation. The fact he was a wolf should have no bearing.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

Or he could use it in discussions with his fellow wolves, seeing as how he was evil, and no normal player(even his tribe) would be all the wiser. That was what i saw it as when it went down, but i was killed before i could do anything to get him killed.

So in regards to this game, i dont think you can overlook the fact he was the head wolf in the game.

he was head wolf for like a day and never found another wolf. I took over for him and it took me 2 days to find a wolf so this argument can be tossed.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Honestly this statement annoys me. His role is irrelavent, Tyrith was cleared of any wrongdoing by Barkeep and the reason why he was in the thread was discovered. If some reasearch had been done prior to both parties imploding we could have avoided the whole situation. The fact he was a wolf should have no bearing.

To you it doesnt, but in a time when sndvls confirmed for us he knew none of the other wolves, it matters to me. He was the head wolf, possibly using post counts to look for other wolves(who to target at night).

Originally Posted by SnDvls

he was head wolf for like a day and never found another wolf. I took over for him and it took me 2 days to find a wolf so this argument can be tossed.

Are you kidding me...just because you took over for him after he did it doesnt mean he didnt do it. Sndvls, the fact he hadnt found a wolf and at the time had no intentions of leaving the game is where my point is coming from.

You all may not like it, and im certainly not trying to start an argument. Im just saying i believed at the time, and am still not not sure i dont believe, that he was doing things for melevolent(read: wolf) reasons.

Yes, barkeep cleared the action...i dont see how that effects his reasons for doing what he did(how i percieve them). I have never found tyrith to be a cheater, and in fact from what private conversations we have had in the past he seems to hold himself on a moral pedestal. Im just telling you how i took his actions, not trying to cause more drama. Discussion, nothing more

This is the last post i will make on this topic, i see it turning ways it doesnt need to turn.

[SnDvls]

blade - you talked about him using it for discussion w/ his fellow wolves...my point was he didn't know how many there were, who they were, or even if he'd be around or how the game would go to see if it would stay a survivor game or ww game. He knew he was a wolf for all of one day.

I'm not defending what he or AE did I'm defending that the argument you are trying with this point isn't valid.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

I've probably said or quoted too much already. *Shurg*.

My point is, Tyrith went off the deep end before I did. Sure, I said, I hope he fries, but it wasn't to the extent of, "Tyrith is a low down stinking cheater, I hope he fries. I can't believe he had the nerve to cheat. How dare he come into our thread and do that!!1!"

Sentence as a cheater? He was seen in our thread by two players. In the end, he was a wolf as well. I was looking for some sort of penalty. It wasn't one of those "oops I popped in accidentally" that had happened all game.

I really wasn't completely agitated until the, "How DARE you, screw you AE, screw you" bit. That's why I added the two posts between the accusation and tyrith's take. I wasn't upset.

What upset me is he was seen in our thread, yet comes out throwing daggers at me. I mean, if you were in my shoes, you'd probably be upset as well.

Now I went overboard after what Tyrith said. I get heated, I'll admit it, especially when I know I'm right. I've apologized to all involved and even those not. I may never play this game again as a penalty. So be it.

I made your sig? Awesome!

[Tyrith]

This has stopped being about ethics and has started being another fight about the last game. I will no longer participate in that line of discussion, because it's not making anyone feel better.

I have to apologize to Anxiety, as there is certainly a need for a discussion about the ethics of WW. However, it doesn't seem like we're really capable of having it right now.

[Poli]

It certainly wasn't my intention to have this be about the last game. However, I think some if not most interested in this thread want to see my actions under the limelight. My responses earlier were in that regard. I simply want people to know why I did what I did.

As far as ethics, I'm ruthless as a wolf. I would have done just what Tyrith or JE did. I would push. I would accuse. I would look for damaging statements. I'd frame anyone for anything. I'll fake an emotion. I'll say I'm busy at work and the whole time be watching what happens offline. Nothing is out of bounds for me.
As a villager with no role, I find the game, eh, just a shade less interesting. I certainly have trouble figuring out who's telling the truth and who's the wolf. I'm never one of the first to be removed by a wolf. I just play to survive mostly.
As a villager with a role, I may lie a little to try and protect myself, but that's about it.

[hoopsguy]

Interesting - I'm much more aggressive as an ordinary villager because I don't have anything of value to lose. I have a hard time maintaining that same attitude as a wolf because I have loyalties to other players - I have to think beyond my own actions more.

I sometimes wonder if I'm the only person who likes playing the vanilla villager role ...

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Interesting - I'm much more aggressive as an ordinary villager because I don't have anything of value to lose. I have a hard time maintaining that same attitude as a wolf because I have loyalties to other players - I have to think beyond my own actions more.

I sometimes wonder if I'm the only person who likes playing the vanilla villager role ...

I enjoy it. But you always complain when I'm a vanilla villager Hoops!

[path12]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Interesting - I'm much more aggressive as an ordinary villager because I don't have anything of value to lose. I have a hard time maintaining that same attitude as a wolf because I have loyalties to other players - I have to think beyond my own actions more.

I sometimes wonder if I'm the only person who likes playing the vanilla villager role ...

I enjoy it, but if you get a bunch of them in a row it can be a little frustrating. I like variety.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I sometimes wonder if I'm the only person who likes playing the vanilla villager role ...

No, its actually my preferred role as well.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

No, its actually my preferred role as well.

"

[Blade6119]

I love being a normal villager...i suck as a wolf

[Poli]

I guess I'm in the minority. I like having a role because I feel like I can make a difference. I suck at this game in general...so being a nobody villager amplifies it.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

As far as ethics, I'm ruthless as a wolf... I'll say I'm busy at work and the whole time be watching what happens offline.

AE, I think most of us draw the line at lying about our availability. I know I do.

And perhaps AE's willingness to seize every advantage possible is why there was some of the blow-ups that there was last game. But again let's not rehash.

I know a few others talked about it earlier in the thread, so perhaps that's the way to go. Is lying about your availability "ethical"? I think AE's suggestion that there could be a different set of ethical standards for wolves vs. villagers is interesting as well.

[Blade6119]

I have never lied about my availability, and dont intend to begin lying about it any time soon. I will say i see no reason its unethical. I think its unethical to say your sick, or someone died, or something like that. But saying "im headed to work, so i cant talk anymore" is just one of the countless lies both villagers and wolves use to reach their goals.

I have never used it, but i have strongly considered lying about going away to see who strikes at the away foe. Wolves like to target people who cant defend themselves, and i could see that being an effective strategy.

Again, i have never and intend to remain always truthful about my availability. If i say im this or that, i am

[Poli]

I look at it from a stand point of good guys against bad guys. For example, in my shipboard engagement tactics class (read: paintball on ship school), we were taught all of the rules of engagement type things...IE, don't shoot unless fired upon. Bad guys, on the other hand, don't have that rule. In fact, they don't have rules. If I'm a wolf, I'm a bad guy. I play by very few rules.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

I have never lied about my availability, and dont intend to begin lying about it any time soon. I will say i see no reason its unethical. I think its unethical to say your sick, or someone died, or something like that. But saying "im headed to work, so i cant talk anymore" is just one of the countless lies both villagers and wolves use to reach their goals.

I have never used it, but i have strongly considered lying about going away to see who strikes at the away foe. Wolves like to target people who cant defend themselves, and i could see that being an effective strategy.

Again, i have never and intend to remain always truthful about my availability. If i say im this or that, i am

I'd say I'm sick, or just swamped at work, I'd say alot of things along those lines...but major things, like say, my friend passing away last month...no way. I wouldn't go there.