Overseas Degradation

WebEwbank · 03-20-2007, 09:25 AM

I have never had a player improve by going to the summer league in Europe.

Never.

I usually select a 2nd-year man, drafted in rounds 3-5, who still has some significant potential (green).

Typically they stay even in current skills or drop 1-2 points.

I am so discouraged that I've stopped sending them. Although I hear you can have a fine time in Amsterdam...

What am I missing here ?

RedKingGold · 03-20-2007, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WebEwbank

What am I missing here ?

That you apparently draft crappy players.

RedKingGold · 03-20-2007, 09:41 AM

Dola

I wasn't trying to be sarcastic (ok, maybe I was). But maybe you should re-evaluate your draft strategy b/c it certainly appears you're drafting not very good players who would never develop with or without summer league/practice time/steroids, etc.

QuikSand · 03-20-2007, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WebEwbank

What am I missing here ?

Maybe you are looking at the wrong time.

The Europe experience doesn't generally result in a bump right away. Rather, it seems to accelerate the development of that player in the year ahead, as he gets playing time and mentorship.

Basically, the best player to send to Europe appears to be a guy who has some development potential, and who figures to get some playing time in the year ahead.

WebEwbank · 03-20-2007, 09:59 AM

That is the problem; I've been checking right after they return, instead of giving the experience time to marinate !

Thanks, QS.

Ksyrup · 03-20-2007, 11:20 AM

What QS said. Almost always, I see a drop of a couple of points immediately after summer league, but a season later, most guys are close to maxing out. I think Jim definitely needs to tweak this to make it a riskier proposition. Also, he needs to cut down on the exploit of drafting a top QB and sending him to summer league, because you can usually get a maxed-out QB by year 3 this way. And funny enough, the AI takes advantage of this as well.

Eaglesfan27 · 03-20-2007, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

What QS said. Almost always, I see a drop of a couple of points immediately after summer league, but a season later, most guys are close to maxing out. I think Jim definitely needs to tweak this to make it a riskier proposition. Also, he needs to cut down on the exploit of drafting a top QB and sending him to summer league, because you can usually get a maxed-out QB by year 3 this way. And funny enough, the AI takes advantage of this as well.

I love that the AI does take advantage of this as well. It at least makes me feel better about doing it. However, I agree that the risk of summer league needs to be increased a bit.

WebEwbank · 03-24-2007, 05:39 PM

Huge difference. I am seeing a 16-19 point jump in most cases over the following year. I think this may make it viable to take a few more flyers on high potential-low current value guys in the draft.

Dutch · 03-25-2007, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

I love that the AI does take advantage of this as well. It at least makes me feel better about doing it. However, I agree that the risk of summer league needs to be increased a bit.

I know I lost my summer league player to an injury in IHOF. So that's 1 out of 32 getting hurt. That's enough for me.

Poli · 03-25-2007, 08:15 AM

I'm not sure I'd like to see the injury aspect increased...I'd rather see that first round selections (perhaps even 2nd round selections) simply can't go to the Summer League.

WebEwbank · 03-25-2007, 01:56 PM

I would love to see:

-Euro league assignment
-weight training
-an expended coaching subsystem

combined in a future version to give a fuller depiction of the groom-a-player aspect of the game. I love the draft and player acquisition in general, and also watching "my" players develop their skills. I would like to have more game-play centered on this aspect. Currently, boom/bust and injury trajectories seem to keep the whole growth process beyond the area I can influence (despite mentoring and juggling playing time...).

cuervo72 · 03-25-2007, 09:02 PM

Why does risk need to increase here? I'm not sure I agree. I see LLS as basically just a dev accelerator. I think if you have a guy who is in the process of turning into a bust, that would get sped up too (just a theory). I don't think it intrinsically changes the player very much, unless there is some random element in there (like the existing volatility roll).

Celeval · 03-30-2007, 12:07 AM

Some additional information - this on a formerly 2nd round pick who was sent to Europe in the IHOF.

SE Jackson Leber
Pre-season:
Overall: 27/39
Getting Downfield: 16/54
Route Running: 38/38
Adjust to Ball: 39/75
Punt Returns: 58/79

Pre-Training-Camp:
Overall: 40/43
Getting Downfield: 18/53
Route Running: 68/68
Adjust to Ball: 68/82
Punt Returns: 76/86

Pre-Regular Season:
Overall: 44/44
Getting Downfield: 18/53
Route Running: 78/78
Adjust to Ball: 79/82
Punt Returns: 78/86

Week 15 (now):
Overall: 47/47
Getting Downfield: 19/53
Route Running: 88/88
Adjust to Ball: 88/88
Punt Returns: 81/86

An interesting progression there... in some ways similar to SkyDog's WR in the other thread, but the summer league seemed to make at least some direct change here. FWIW, Leber has gotten some playing time as generally the #3/#4 receiver, he has played in all 13 games this year starting 2. 190 pass plays, 57 targets, 32 catches, 324 yards (10.13 avg), 2 TDs, 5 drops (0 Avoid Drops).. but only 6.6 yards/punt return (21st in the league among returners with at least 15 PRs).

stevew · 03-30-2007, 04:36 AM

Of late, I've been sending my linemen overseas in SP. It seems like a good way to see if a 10/50 guy is a pretender(most likely) or if he can at least develop into a 45/45 type backup/depth. In most cases, it shows you what you should already know, which is that a guy simply isn't going to be a pro player. But it has helped accelerate a few guys which developed into decent backups/lower tier starters.

I basically just look to send rounds 4-UDFA, kind of house rules on my part not to be sending #1 pick QB types.

cuervo72 · 03-30-2007, 02:48 PM

Celeval - did you have him pegged as a creeper already though? Out of curiousity, how did he look in the last file in 2k4?

Celeval · 03-30-2007, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Celeval - did you have him pegged as a creeper already though? Out of curiousity, how did he look in the last file in 2k4?

Honestly... I don't remember if I had him as a creeper or not.

He was very specifically a return man for me, and I paid little to no attention to his receiving skills. At the end of 2k4, he was:

Overall: 26/41
Getting Downfield: 18/41
Route Running: 35/40
Adjust to Ball: 40/82
Punt Returns: 66/74

QuikSand · 03-30-2007, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Celeval - did you have him pegged as a creeper already though? Out of curiousity, how did he look in the last file in 2k4?

Nothing too striking in the draft combine, for what that's worth:

25 test (+0.58 std dev)
4.56 forty (-0.06)
10 reps (+0.04)
7.31 agil (-0.23)

Code:

Leber, Jackson, SE, NW Missouri St.
Born: 9-2-1989 Ht: 6'4" Wt: 200 lbs
Drop: 18   Dwnf: 60   Rout: 44   3rdC: 76   BigP: 32   Cour: 64
AdjB: 81   Fumb: 18   Punt: 77   Kick: 69   End : 56   Spec: 19
Confidence: 30

21/43 overall -- great-looking return man at the time, not a lot else to see there.

cuervo72 · 03-30-2007, 05:58 PM

So he had actually gone *down* two points from the draft? Hrm. I was thinking maybe he had been a creeper who had been "remasked" a bit, and then LLS caused his mask to come back off and then some. But, maybe not.

03-20-2007, 11:20 AM	#6
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	What QS said. Almost always, I see a drop of a couple of points immediately after summer league, but a season later, most guys are close to maxing out. I think Jim definitely needs to tweak this to make it a riskier proposition. Also, he needs to cut down on the exploit of drafting a top QB and sending him to summer league, because you can usually get a maxed-out QB by year 3 this way. And funny enough, the AI takes advantage of this as well. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

03-25-2007, 08:15 AM	#10
Poli FOFC Survivor Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Wentzville, MO	I'm not sure I'd like to see the injury aspect increased...I'd rather see that first round selections (perhaps even 2nd round selections) simply can't go to the Summer League. __________________ Cheer for a walk on quarterback! Ardent leads the Vols in the dynasty forum.

03-25-2007, 09:02 PM	#12
cuervo72 Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Maryland	Why does risk need to increase here? I'm not sure I agree. I see LLS as basically just a dev accelerator. I think if you have a guy who is in the process of turning into a bust, that would get sped up too (just a theory). I don't think it intrinsically changes the player very much, unless there is some random element in there (like the existing volatility roll). __________________ null

03-30-2007, 02:48 PM	#15
cuervo72 Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Maryland	Celeval - did you have him pegged as a creeper already though? Out of curiousity, how did he look in the last file in 2k4? __________________ null

03-30-2007, 05:58 PM	#18
cuervo72 Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Maryland	So he had actually gone down two points from the draft? Hrm. I was thinking maybe he had been a creeper who had been "remasked" a bit, and then LLS caused his mask to come back off and then some. But, maybe not. __________________ null

03-20-2007, 09:41 AM	#3
RedKingGold College Starter Join Date: Oct 2002	Dola I wasn't trying to be sarcastic (ok, maybe I was). But maybe you should re-evaluate your draft strategy b/c it certainly appears you're drafting not very good players who would never develop with or without summer league/practice time/steroids, etc.

03-20-2007, 09:59 AM	#5
WebEwbank High School JV Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Natick, MA	That is the problem; I've been checking right after they return, instead of giving the experience time to marinate ! Thanks, QS.

03-24-2007, 05:39 PM	#8
WebEwbank High School JV Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Natick, MA	Huge difference. I am seeing a 16-19 point jump in most cases over the following year. I think this may make it viable to take a few more flyers on high potential-low current value guys in the draft.

03-25-2007, 01:56 PM	#11
WebEwbank High School JV Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Natick, MA	I would love to see: -Euro league assignment -weight training -an expended coaching subsystem combined in a future version to give a fuller depiction of the groom-a-player aspect of the game. I love the draft and player acquisition in general, and also watching "my" players develop their skills. I would like to have more game-play centered on this aspect. Currently, boom/bust and injury trajectories seem to keep the whole growth process beyond the area I can influence (despite mentoring and juggling playing time...).

03-30-2007, 12:07 AM	#13
Celeval Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Cary, NC, USA	Some additional information - this on a formerly 2nd round pick who was sent to Europe in the IHOF. SE Jackson Leber Pre-season: Overall: 27/39 Getting Downfield: 16/54 Route Running: 38/38 Adjust to Ball: 39/75 Punt Returns: 58/79 Pre-Training-Camp: Overall: 40/43 Getting Downfield: 18/53 Route Running: 68/68 Adjust to Ball: 68/82 Punt Returns: 76/86 Pre-Regular Season: Overall: 44/44 Getting Downfield: 18/53 Route Running: 78/78 Adjust to Ball: 79/82 Punt Returns: 78/86 Week 15 (now): Overall: 47/47 Getting Downfield: 19/53 Route Running: 88/88 Adjust to Ball: 88/88 Punt Returns: 81/86 An interesting progression there... in some ways similar to SkyDog's WR in the other thread, but the summer league seemed to make at least some direct change here. FWIW, Leber has gotten some playing time as generally the #3/#4 receiver, he has played in all 13 games this year starting 2. 190 pass plays, 57 targets, 32 catches, 324 yards (10.13 avg), 2 TDs, 5 drops (0 Avoid Drops).. but only 6.6 yards/punt return (21st in the league among returners with at least 15 PRs).

03-30-2007, 04:36 AM	#14
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	Of late, I've been sending my linemen overseas in SP. It seems like a good way to see if a 10/50 guy is a pretender(most likely) or if he can at least develop into a 45/45 type backup/depth. In most cases, it shows you what you should already know, which is that a guy simply isn't going to be a pro player. But it has helped accelerate a few guys which developed into decent backups/lower tier starters. I basically just look to send rounds 4-UDFA, kind of house rules on my part not to be sending #1 pick QB types.

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