Good news ootp'ers!

[MizzouRah]

From Markus:

OK folks, the patch is almost done and will be tested starting today.

I was able to enhance the trading, and also added two trading options:
- Trade difficulty (ranges from Very Easy to Very Hard)... on Very Easy you will definitely be able to rip off the AI, on Very Hard you'll have a tough time getting value from the player(s) you offer.
- Trade AI preference (ranges from Heavily Favor prospects over neutral to Heavily Favor Veterans. This determines the way the AI values prospects in comparison to veteran regular ballplayers.

Also, there will be a report for minor league standings, and other small enhancements and features. Also, I am trying to fix all the bugs that were reported.

Other AI issues are being worked at as well, the rotation AI is working now the way it should and roster management should work better now.

The financial coefficient is driving me nuts, and this has to be delayed again

Just wanted to keep you updated. I hope to have the patch done late next week! (Keep your fingers crossed)

Version 5.11 will really please you I think.



Todd

[Maple Leafs]

Originally posted by MizzouRah
- Trade AI preference (ranges from Heavily Favor prospects over neutral to Heavily Favor Veterans. This determines the way the AI values prospects in comparison to veteran regular ballplayers.

Well.... ideally, the AI should determine this on it's own, with rebuilding teams wanting prospects and contending teams wanting vets. Having a game-wide setting doesn't seem to make much sense.

The trade difficulty slider is a great addition, though.

[Anrhydeddu]

It seems to be very difficult in any sim to get the AI to accurately evaluates where the needs areas area and their strengths/weaknesses. But anything to enhance the trade experience is a winner since that's what I like most about playing.

[MizzouRah]

Originally posted by Maple Leafs
Well.... ideally, the AI should determine this on it's own, with rebuilding teams wanting prospects and contending teams wanting vets. Having a game-wide setting doesn't seem to make much sense.

The trade difficulty slider is a great addition, though.

I'm wondering about this feature as well.


Todd

[CamEdwards]

just a question... is Markus the first text sim developer to implement a sliders to allow us to control the degree of AI in any way.

I can't think of any right now, and I'm too lazy to re-install FOF 4 to try and see if Jim did it.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
just a question... is Markus the first text sim developer to implement a sliders to allow us to control the degree of AI in any way.

I can't think of any right now, and I'm too lazy to re-install FOF 4 to try and see if Jim did it.

In Puresim, you can tweak the XML on items like how likely teams are to trade or move players from the minors to the majors. It doesn't work perfectly, but it's there.

[Anrhydeddu]

This was what I wrote at 400

As a gamer who finds trading to be the most fun aspect of a sports sim, I am uneasy about this. It seems that many are asking for a more intelligent trading AI where it can better determine where the needs are. Why do you now assume that there can be a global setting when not all teams are equal in their needs? To me, an enhanced trading feature would include better value of prospects (not at the expense of veterans - sometimes both are equal in demand) and eliminating the constant merry-go-round of AI players in trades, releases and in-season FA signings. I had hoped for the ability to trade picks but that can wait.

[tucker342]

- Trade difficulty (ranges from Very Easy to Very Hard)... on Very Easy you will definitely be able to rip off the AI, on Very Hard you'll have a tough time getting value from the player(s) you offer.

Good

[Anrhydeddu]

I can just imagine SkyDog's response, "there cannot be any sliders, there is only one accurate trading difficulty". And then I would respond, "Like how easy it was for the Braves to trade Millwood?".

Like with the setting for prospects/veterans, there isn't a single global setting for difficulty. In same cases, an AI team should have a fire sale (if it knows that it's the right time to do so), while in other cases, it would be hard to get anyone. As much as I love options (because not everyone is going to agree with me or DD or anyonelse on this), I would like to see an option to use the options (unless the middle point is totally neutral).

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
I can just imagine SkyDog's response, "there cannot be any sliders, there is only one accurate trading difficulty". And then I would respond, "Like how easy it was for the Braves to trade Millwood?".

You mean the Johnny Estrada who's hitting
354/427/551 in AAA.

Why don't we see how a trade actually turns out before we make it an example of human ineptitude for eternity.

[Anrhydeddu]

That brings up a good point, Jim. I have been saying for a few years that in FOF and OOTP, I have found the trade AI to be decent where 1/4 of the trades end up in my or the AI's favor while half them are a wash. But I always evaluate each trade in hindsight, just like what you are alluding to. But the critics of trading and those feeling that you need massive trading house rules or not do trades at all seems to be just focusing on the face value at the time of the trade. Still, if the AI was set at Hard, would it have made that trade even though it may turn out to be a wash? Why give the AI a needless house rule (like eliminating trades out of hand) when it should just be evaluating each on a case by case basis?

[Easy Mac]

Originally posted by lynchjm24
You mean the Johnny Estrada who's hitting
354/427/551 in AAA.

Why don't we see how a trade actually turns out before we make it an example of human ineptitude for eternity.

And its looking more and more like Milwood could be heading to the Braves after they let go of Maddux this year... at least until Javy started hitting. And thank god for Sheff firing Boras (I think), the Braves need to re-sign him NOW.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
That brings up a good point, Jim. I have been saying for a few years that in FOF and OOTP, I have found the trade AI to be decent where 1/4 of the trades end up in my or the AI's favor while half them are a wash. But I always evaluate each trade in hindsight, just like what you are alluding to. But the critics of trading and those feeling that you need massive trading house rules or not do trades at all seems to be just focusing on the face value at the time of the trade. Still, if the AI was set at Hard, would it have made that trade even though it may turn out to be a wash? Why give the AI a needless house rule (like eliminating trades out of hand) when it should just be evaluating each on a case by case basis?

I really found that trading was very good in the 5.01 OOTP update. It was just 5.10 was a step backwards. Since I also found I liked the aging patterns much better in 5.01, I just use that version. I have joined Hell Atlantic's league, it looks like it will be fun, the hard part is finding dedicated owners. Hopefully this group will be together for a while. Now that I am in one of those leagues there are some glaring shortcomings in the game as an on-line game that I never realized, hopefully some of those gaps will be closed.

As far as trading goes, I find that if I go back years later a good number of the guys who I gave up go on to have pretty good careers. You really need to give trades some time - and even then in a game like OOTP there are other factors. An AI team might have better/worse coaching then you. In real life you may look at a pitcher's mechanics and decide they are injury prone. In OOTP something like a career-ending injury seems to just be purely random.

I think more then anything a better 'scouting' system would improve the game. Even if the current one was just separated from the coaches that would be nice. It's to much of a difference between scouts. I think it should be a much smaller difference from 'Legendary' to 'Average'.

Looks like a lot of time was spent on the sliders. Let's give it a shot before we start picking it apart.

[KWhit]

It will be interesting to see what Markus has done to the trade AI.

I'll give the guy credit. He doesn't always succeed, but at least he listens to his customers and tries his hardest to make us happy.

[Samdari]

As opposed to ......

[FBPro]

Originally posted by Samdari
As opposed to ......

Not paying any attention to his customers, I guess?

[Easy Mac]

And this is patch # what now? And Jim released how many patches for TCY? And what # patch will Jim release later this summer. Face it, just because he interacts w/ the community, doesn't make the game work any better.

[MizzouRah]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
And this is patch # what now? And Jim released how many patches for TCY? And what # patch will Jim release later this summer. Face it, just because he interacts w/ the community, doesn't make the game work any better.

Say what you will, but I'll take Markus's interaction over Jim's silence anyday. Who even knows if Jim's coming out with a patch or not? It's almost too late to care at this point, although a surprise or two might kick some of you back into the game around pre-season.

Who cares if Markus has 25 patches? He supports his products and isn't afraid to address his customers on a regular basis. I like that. Baseball is such a tricky sport to immulate, imo, and much harder to please the majority of people.

Back to your original point, no the game might not work any better, but it's nice to get enhancements instead of just fixes. I think interaction=better game, at least for those of us who make suggestions. I'll 'wait' to purchase my next Solecismic game, while ootp5 will be purchased day of release.

Todd

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by MizzouRah
I'll 'wait' to purchase my next Solecismic game, while ootp5 will be purchased day of release.

Todd

Well if you are waiting to buy OOTP5, you are late .

I think that Jim would have been open to being more communication with the community - but a few idiots turned him off to it.

[Cards4ever]

Originally posted by MizzouRah
I'll 'wait' to purchase my next Solecismic game, while ootp5 will be purchased day of release.

Todd

Does that relate to the 400 Studios hockey and football games? I won't touch them myself, I'm waiting for EHM and will buy that immediately.

[MizzouRah]

Originally posted by Cards4ever
Does that relate to the 400 Studios hockey and football games? I won't touch them myself, I'm waiting for EHM and will buy that immediately.

Sorry, I meant ootp6.

No, Markus and baseball only, I'll take a wait and see approach on these two. I've been with ootp since v2 and he's always been accessible. Jim does answer his emails, but some discussion on what's going to be in the last patch would be nice. I assume he listens to us, but beyond that I'm lost.


Todd

[ISiddiqui]

This sounds good!

I'm looking forward to it .

[kcchief19]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
Still, if the AI was set at Hard, would it have made that trade even though it may turn out to be a wash? Why give the AI a needless house rule (like eliminating trades out of hand) when it should just be evaluating each on a case by case basis?

Excellent questions. My contention has always been that I have never seen a game (and I don't think at this point it is possible) where the AI can account for an "irrational" human opponent.

There is a HUGE difference between trade difficulty and trade frequency. Trade difficulty to a large degree is up to the programmer to create an AI that is capable of balancing multiple factors when making personnel decisions. This is difficult, but I think it can be done without artificially handicapping either the human or the AI.

Trade frequency, however, is almost completely in the hands of the human player. The only thing a programmer could do to address trade frequency is to have the computer AI artificially reject trades with human oppoenents simply because the human has made too many trades. Maybe a programmer could make that as option, but it seems that most people would object.

I think both Jim and Markus have done a pretty good job in addressing difficulty AI. Both have some weaknesses. FOF seems to overvalue current skill and undervalue potential. In OOTP, it is virtually impossible to dump salary. I even find it difficult to trade a superstar player in exchange for prospects. The AI is way too focused on the dollar value of trades.

But the argument that trades are too frequent falls solely on the human. Why are you making these trades if you think you are making too many? It comes back to the fact that except for Deep Blue, I can't think of any AI that can account for the unpredictability of a human with nothing to lose. Sure there are ridiculous trades in OOTP. But how is the AI supposed to account for the unaccountable? Many of the trade examples I have seen from OOTP that are considered to be "unrealistic" are just that -- they are trades that would never take place in the real world, because a real world GM could not make the trade without getting fired. It my make sense for the Yankees to trade Derek Jeter on paper, but what do you think would happen to them if they did? In the real world, Brian Cashman would get fired and fans would set fire to Yankee Stadium. In OOTP, nothing will happen because there is no emotion.

Jim artificially addresses trading with the player popularity -- it's almost impossible to get a computer team to trade a popular player. Some many not like that, but it is his way to help the AI value a player for more than his numerical ratings.

Markus is taking some novel approaches and I do salute that. It would be even better if the trade sliders and other management sliders adjusted as the teams evolve.

[kcchief19]

Originally posted by lynchjm24
I think that Jim would have been open to being more communication with the community - but a few idiots turned him off to it.

Dola ... EXACTLY. The biggest myth out there is that Jim G does not listen to his customers. The final version of TCY should dispell that notion -- there are several features and changes implemented in the final patch that were the result of direct requests, observations and suggestions of people here.

Have no doubt -- Jim does visit this board. He probably deleted his cookie and threw out his password so that he would not be tempted to post here, but he does come. He may not post, but he knows what goes on here. And remember -- unlike ootp's board, this is not Jim's forum.

As lynchjm said, it was a few idiots and a couple of moment-of-passion messages that burned Jim here. Markus and Jim have different temperaments and approaches. Jim designs games for himself that he hopes others enjoy. Markus designs games for other people. Jim has absolute reasons for the design choices in his games. Markus is much more laid back.

You may prefer one over the other, but my observation has been that it does not make one game better than another. This notion that a designer has to be a man of the people in order to design a good game is bizarre. That would mean there were no good games designed before the evolution of the Internet and games put out by the big boys at EA and others all suck.

Of course, another HUGE difference is the fan-base temperament. I think there should be a psychological study of what makes so many OOTP users fanboys and so many FOF users hypercritical.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think there should be a psychological study of what makes so many OOTP users fanboys and so many FOF users hypercritical.

I wonder if anybody ever worked up a reasonable estimate of the following for each group --
Avg age of user (by game)
Avg years of gaming (by game)
Avg # of sim-type sports games owned/played

I'll betcha a quarter a good part of the pyschological differences would be accounted for by those factors.

[Poli]

Blast you all! I'll get to play these games one day!

[PSUColonel]

"In OOTP, it is virtually impossible to dump salary"



In the games current state?...surely you're joking.(I hope) oryou just haven't been paying attention.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by PSUColonel
"In OOTP, it is virtually impossible to dump salary"



In the games current state?...surely you're joking.(I hope) oryou just haven't been paying attention.

While it's probably not worth talking about since 5.11 is on the way - 5.10 allows you to dump salary and get top of the line prospects at the same time.