Werewolf LVI - Upstairs, Downstairs - GAME OVER, Guests WIN! - Page 11

Peregrine · 09-23-2007, 07:37 PM

This has been a tricky situation, because what I intended the rules to be and what I actually wrote down were not the same. When I wrote the passage:

If either the Winstons or the servants are eliminated (including their supporter, mentioned in the team section) the rival team wins the game at the start of a day as long as they have at least one member alive. If a situation arises where the last members of both teams are killed at the start of any day, the Guests win the game. The guests can also win if they outnumber the surviving members of both teams (not including supporters) by a ratio of 2:1 after Day 4.

I meant all three rules to clearly be put into effect at the start of the day. I said this for the first two victory conditions but not for the third. My intent was always to have victory started at the start of the day, and not at the end. Since what I ended up putting was confusing and not very clear, I can go ahead and end the game now, but my intent was to give the Upstairs and Downstairs chance a little extra chance to have the guests not win the game.

DaddyTorgo · 09-23-2007, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peregrine

This has been a tricky situation, because what I intended the rules to be and what I actually wrote down were not the same. When I wrote the passage:

If either the Winstons or the servants are eliminated (including their supporter, mentioned in the team section) the rival team wins the game at the start of a day as long as they have at least one member alive. If a situation arises where the last members of both teams are killed at the start of any day, the Guests win the game. The guests can also win if they outnumber the surviving members of both teams (not including supporters) by a ratio of 2:1 after Day 4.

I meant all three rules to clearly be put into effect at the start of the day. I said this for the first two victory conditions but not for the third. My intent was always to have victory started at the start of the day, and not at the end. Since what I ended up putting was confusing and not very clear, I can go ahead and end the game now, but my intent was to give the Upstairs and Downstairs chance a little extra chance to have the guests not win the game.

i'm still confused

Lathum · 09-23-2007, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i'm still confused

me to

Passacaglia · 09-23-2007, 08:27 PM

I think he's saying the guests win as the rules are written, but his intent was for the upstairs and downstairs teams to have another night to try to kill each other before the guests could win.

Peregrine · 09-23-2007, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I think he's saying the guests win as the rules are written, but his intent was for the upstairs and downstairs teams to have another night to try to kill each other before the guests could win.

That's right, because the intended rules are that the victory conditions be checked at the start of a day, in the morning, not at the end of a day, at the voting.

DaddyTorgo · 09-23-2007, 08:30 PM

aaaah

Passacaglia · 09-23-2007, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peregrine

That's right, because the intended rules are that the victory conditions be checked at the start of a day, in the morning, not at the end of a day, at the voting.

Maybe cronin and I can play for fake victory?

Alan T · 09-23-2007, 09:32 PM

So is the game officially over then? Can I speak again?

Neon_Chaos · 09-23-2007, 10:55 PM

Alan T, when you died, I had to pick up the slack.

MrBug708 · 09-23-2007, 11:15 PM

I guess claiming that I'm the neighbor would pretty much fall on deaf ears and would look pretty self serving

Peregrine · 09-23-2007, 11:29 PM

At this point I think the game is over. Obviously I screwed up by not making the rules clear but it would be even more unfair to try to change them at this point. Personally I think this will be a bit of an asterisk game as I felt the Upstairs and Downstairs team members should have gotten a further chance, even though it was likely they would still lose.

The votes come in and MrBug certainly looks the most guilty. The Inspector takes him away and at that point the GUESTS WIN! There are 8 surviving guests and 3 surviving team members.

Lathum - The Gadabout
RendeR - voted out, Day 2 - Joseph Winston
Gonzo - voted out, Day 3 - The Chambermaid
ArlingtonColt - The Socialite
Neon_Chaos - The Elderly Gent
PurdueBrad - shot to death - The Butler
Passacaglia - Daria Winston
Barkeep49 - shot to death - The Vicar
EagleFan - stabbed to death - The Daughter
MrBug708 - voted out on Day 4 - Mrs. Winston
St. Cronin - The Driver
Oliegirl - The Colonel
ntndeacon - Mr. Winston
SnDvls - The Neighbor
DaddyTorgo - The Gossip
Saldana - The Lush
Alan T - shot to death - The Professor
Telle - stabbed to death - The Cook
Path12 - The Eccentric

Lathum · 09-23-2007, 11:33 PM

I am guessing Peregrine didn't count on the mass reveal.

So who were the sympathizers?

Peregrine · 09-23-2007, 11:35 PM

Actually, I figured a mass reveal was pretty likely. What I thought would happen at that point, though, was not what happened at all. I figured the teams would start killing guests off as fast as they could, figuring A) it would reduce or eliminate the guest win option, and B) since the guests would be lynching someone from the unrevealed list every day, there was still a 50% chance their opponent team would take the hit on any given day, and C) they needed to do it to kill the opposing team's supporter. Essentially when the teams started butchering each other after the mass reveal, there was basically no way they could win.

SnDvls, The Neighbor, was the supporter for the Upstairs team. The Downstairs supporter was Path12, The Eccentric.

st.cronin · 09-23-2007, 11:46 PM

I never understood what kind of game this was supposed to be, at all. I never had even the slightest clue as to what the right strategy would be, and I don't think any of my teammates did, either.

Thanks for running the game, Peregrine. Although I can't say I enjoyed it, it was much better than the worst game I've run. I hope you give it another go, with some appropriate tweaks.

Lathum · 09-24-2007, 12:00 AM

I think I owe it to Alan to reveal my strategy.

I knew I had my one time seer scan and I figured night 3 would be the best time to use it. I also knew I had to stay alive until then so I tried to play a little crazy so the baddies would want me around to run interference.

ALan is always a good person to instigate because he is always up to a challange ( I mean that in a good way)

path12 · 09-24-2007, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path12

If you're putting a case down that includes a specific person, I support that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by path12

So basically I'm down with supporting a better candidate if one comes along.

Did the downstairs team catch either of these?

st.cronin · 09-24-2007, 12:39 AM

Not me.

Alan T · 09-24-2007, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

I think I owe it to Alan to reveal my strategy.

I knew I had my one time seer scan and I figured night 3 would be the best time to use it. I also knew I had to stay alive until then so I tried to play a little crazy so the baddies would want me around to run interference.

ALan is always a good person to instigate because he is always up to a challange ( I mean that in a good way)

Not really a bad move at all. I honestly thought you were one of the supporters but at no point was I going to go after you since it would have been counter-productive.

The main thing I kept trying to do the entire game was pit the upstairs vs the downstairs teams as much as possible. Thats why each day I kept saying one or the other was behind to try to subliminally encourage them to go after each other and not the guests.

The upstairs/downstairs team if combined on both day 1 and day 2 had the numbers advantage over us, but by day 3 we had caught up thankfully. I'm sad that my role ended up being a dud though. I had a 25% chance of surviving an attack if attacked when asleep. The numbers didn't work out for me

Passacaglia · 09-24-2007, 06:54 AM

Peregrine, can we get a run-down of night actions? I guess I only got to act for one night, but I'm curious as to who killed who, and what the upstairs and downstairs team did.

oliegirl · 09-24-2007, 06:56 AM

I was actually surprised that the upstairs and downstairs teams didn't start picking off the guests, I figured that would be where they would start, because it would lower the number of votes cast and increase the chances of a tie vote since we'd be "voting for our lives" rather than voting to win...

Alan T · 09-24-2007, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Peregrine, can we get a run-down of night actions? I guess I only got to act for one night, but I'm curious as to who killed who, and what the upstairs and downstairs team did.

Yes, I am curious to who killed me

Barkeep49 · 09-24-2007, 07:38 AM

I'm so glad this game happened since it's a reminder of why I normally push so hard for information early in a game. I'm also glad to have played a game where I wasn't suspicious when I died.

Alan T · 09-24-2007, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I'm so glad this game happened since it's a reminder of why I normally push so hard for information early in a game. I'm also glad to have played a game where I wasn't suspicious when I died.

Hehe, when i first suggested the mass reveal idea the first thought that jumped in my head was that you would be in heaven

Peregrine · 09-24-2007, 08:05 AM

As far as actions, there was a lot of searching, and mostly, as you would expect, the upstairs and downstairs teams did the killing. Render killed Telle the first night, and PurdueBrad killed Eaglefan, while ntndeacon killed Barkeep49. The second night only ntndeacon was killed, by PurdueBrad. The third night st.cronin killed Alan T and ArlingtonColt killed PurdueBrad.

There were some other secret roles available, The Colonel had a bodyguard role for example, and others had one shot roles such as a one time seer ability, etc.

One thing for the next game if I ran this again, I might include the supporters as full members of the team. This would help give the teams some full reveal protection and they would be the hardest to find out.

Barkeep49 · 09-24-2007, 08:44 AM

Another thought would be the way CR handled this in his game which is to have extra villager roles and the bad guys knowing which roles were taken so they could fake reveal.

Lathum · 09-24-2007, 09:44 AM

so PurdueBrad, did you think you were fooling anyone

Alan T · 09-24-2007, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peregrine

As far as actions, there was a lot of searching, and mostly, as you would expect, the upstairs and downstairs teams did the killing. Render killed Telle the first night, and PurdueBrad killed Eaglefan, while ntndeacon killed Barkeep49. The second night only ntndeacon was killed, by PurdueBrad. The third night st.cronin killed Alan T and ArlingtonColt killed PurdueBrad.

There were some other secret roles available, The Colonel had a bodyguard role for example, and others had one shot roles such as a one time seer ability, etc.

One thing for the next game if I ran this again, I might include the supporters as full members of the team. This would help give the teams some full reveal protection and they would be the hardest to find out.

Hah, so Render did kill Telle.. I just was saying that to stir up stuff.. How did that go over at home?

PurdueBrad · 09-24-2007, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

so PurdueBrad, did you think you were fooling anyone

Nope, but with the mass reveal I wanted to stir the pot in some way to keep things interesting.

Lathum · 09-24-2007, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

Nope, but with the mass reveal I wanted to stir the pot in some way to keep things interesting.

IMO it would have been a better move to counter someone early on. In my expieriencs that creats WAY more confusion and can be a big distraction.

Threatining to counter just makes people discount what your saying and makes you look even worse, especialy in a game like this where there are no reveals on lynching, it would have made things much murkier.

Not trying to be critical, just trying to give some constructive feedback.

Passacaglia · 09-24-2007, 12:08 PM

I thought about doing a fake reveal, but at that point in the game, I thought it would have been too tough to pull off. Plus, I had it in my mind that either Alan or Lathum was really the Lush, hoping to catch someone revealing as that. In the end, I was hoping for more politics to come into play, where I would try to get the guests to help me out for a while, but I spent my only night keeping myself alive.

Telle · 09-24-2007, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

IMO it would have been a better move to counter someone early on. In my experiences that creates WAY more confusion and can be a big distraction.

Threatening to counter just makes people discount what your saying and makes you look even worse, especially in a game like this where there are no reveals on lynching, it would have made things much murkier.

Not trying to be critical, just trying to give some constructive feedback.

Yeah I think what we (non-guests) really needed was to do a bunch of counter-reveals and started jumping on the reveal bandwagon once the guests all started to reveal. This would have led to mass chaos and made the guest id info pretty irrelevant.

Telle · 09-24-2007, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

... I also knew I had to stay alive until then so I tried to play a little crazy so the baddies would want me around to run interference ...

So that's what you were up to! I knew something was "off" about you, but my guess was that you were a supporter.

Lathum · 09-24-2007, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telle

So that's what you were up to! I knew something was "off" about you, but my guess was that you were a supporter.

mission accomplished

Barkeep49 · 09-24-2007, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telle

So that's what you were up to! I knew something was "off" about you, but my guess was that you were a supporter.

There's always something "off" about Lathum

Lathum · 09-24-2007, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

There's always something "off" about Lathum

heh

st.cronin · 09-24-2007, 02:09 PM

I guess I still don't understand what kind of game Peregrine thought this would be, with, basically, no fake reveals possible.

RendeR · 09-24-2007, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I guess I still don't understand what kind of game Peregrine thought this would be, with, basically, no fake reveals possible.

Therein lies the rot of the problem SC, his game flowed the way it was meant to, but that one flaw, not having either a reason for the guests to remain silent OR having more possible roles than actual players made the mass reveal a game killing tactic on the guests part.

Lathum · 09-24-2007, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RendeR

Therein lies the rot of the problem SC, his game flowed the way it was meant to, but that one flaw, not having either a reason for the guests to remain silent OR having more possible roles than actual players made the mass reveal a game killing tactic on the guests part.

I would agree with this.

As a gueast once no reveals were challenged it became elementry. I was pretty much standing around either waiting to be killed or not killed.

There was really no need for discussion or analysis as a guest, and to me that is the crux of WW.

SnDvls · 09-24-2007, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RendeR

Therein lies the rot of the problem SC, his game flowed the way it was meant to, but that one flaw, not having either a reason for the guests to remain silent OR having more possible roles than actual players made the mass reveal a game killing tactic on the guests part.

"

Peregrine · 09-24-2007, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RendeR

Therein lies the rot of the problem SC, his game flowed the way it was meant to, but that one flaw, not having either a reason for the guests to remain silent OR having more possible roles than actual players made the mass reveal a game killing tactic on the guests part.

I think this is a very good observation, and my mistake. Essentially, I could run the exact same game, but if I just chose the team members randomly from the list, instead of assigning them specific names, it would have worked fine. If the upstairs team could have been The Professor, The Eccentric, The Driver, and so forth, we're back to normal WW.

SnDvls · 09-24-2007, 03:45 PM

after I had done the post on RendeR I realized it might backfire...I knew MrBug was on the upstairs and didn't really think RendeR was on the upstairs until he threw NTN out there whom I was pretty sure was up there too, but it was too late at that time.

I did embellish my night view a little as my original PM said there were drops of blood on the ground behind him, but I needed it to stick and be a good night view.

Once I knew RendeR was upstairs it was too late to change at that point, but I was hoping the upstairs would either 1) kill me or 2) get the numbers back by eliminating the downstairs team by 2.

It did really hurt that every role was in the game and I think that greatly hindered the two teams.

Peregrine · 09-24-2007, 03:45 PM

That said, I still maintain, probably controversially, that even with the full reveal the teams could have fairly easily made sure that one of them would win, instead of the guests.

SnDvls · 09-24-2007, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peregrine

That said, I still maintain, probably controversially, that even with the full reveal the teams could have fairly easily made sure that one of them would win, instead of the guests.

they could have if they had a little help in night actions yes, I agree with this.
Or if they had tried to dispute a role or claim on early on leading to a lynch showdown that didn't reveal a role.

09-23-2007, 10:55 PM	#509
Neon_Chaos Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Parañaque, Philippines	Alan T, when you died, I had to pick up the slack. __________________ Come and see.

09-23-2007, 11:35 PM	#513
Peregrine Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Cary, NC	Actually, I figured a mass reveal was pretty likely. What I thought would happen at that point, though, was not what happened at all. I figured the teams would start killing guests off as fast as they could, figuring A) it would reduce or eliminate the guest win option, and B) since the guests would be lynching someone from the unrevealed list every day, there was still a 50% chance their opponent team would take the hit on any given day, and C) they needed to do it to kill the opposing team's supporter. Essentially when the teams started butchering each other after the mass reveal, there was basically no way they could win. SnDvls, The Neighbor, was the supporter for the Upstairs team. The Downstairs supporter was Path12, The Eccentric. Last edited by Peregrine : 09-23-2007 at 11:36 PM.

09-23-2007, 11:46 PM	#514
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	I never understood what kind of game this was supposed to be, at all. I never had even the slightest clue as to what the right strategy would be, and I don't think any of my teammates did, either. Thanks for running the game, Peregrine. Although I can't say I enjoyed it, it was much better than the worst game I've run. I hope you give it another go, with some appropriate tweaks. __________________ co-commish: bb-bbcf.net knives out

09-24-2007, 12:39 AM	#517
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	Not me. __________________ co-commish: bb-bbcf.net knives out

09-24-2007, 07:38 AM	#522
Barkeep49 Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Not too far away	I'm so glad this game happened since it's a reminder of why I normally push so hard for information early in a game. I'm also glad to have played a game where I wasn't suspicious when I died. Last edited by Barkeep49 : 09-24-2007 at 07:38 AM.

09-23-2007, 07:37 PM	#501
Peregrine Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Cary, NC	This has been a tricky situation, because what I intended the rules to be and what I actually wrote down were not the same. When I wrote the passage: If either the Winstons or the servants are eliminated (including their supporter, mentioned in the team section) the rival team wins the game at the start of a day as long as they have at least one member alive. If a situation arises where the last members of both teams are killed at the start of any day, the Guests win the game. The guests can also win if they outnumber the surviving members of both teams (not including supporters) by a ratio of 2:1 after Day 4. I meant all three rules to clearly be put into effect at the start of the day. I said this for the first two victory conditions but not for the third. My intent was always to have victory started at the start of the day, and not at the end. Since what I ended up putting was confusing and not very clear, I can go ahead and end the game now, but my intent was to give the Upstairs and Downstairs chance a little extra chance to have the guests not win the game.

09-23-2007, 08:27 PM	#504
Passacaglia Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Big Ten Country	I think he's saying the guests win as the rules are written, but his intent was for the upstairs and downstairs teams to have another night to try to kill each other before the guests could win.

09-23-2007, 08:30 PM	#506
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	aaaah

09-23-2007, 09:32 PM	#508
Alan T Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mass.	So is the game officially over then? Can I speak again?

09-23-2007, 11:15 PM	#510
MrBug708 Head Coach Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Whittier	I guess claiming that I'm the neighbor would pretty much fall on deaf ears and would look pretty self serving

09-23-2007, 11:29 PM	#511
Peregrine Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Cary, NC	At this point I think the game is over. Obviously I screwed up by not making the rules clear but it would be even more unfair to try to change them at this point. Personally I think this will be a bit of an asterisk game as I felt the Upstairs and Downstairs team members should have gotten a further chance, even though it was likely they would still lose. The votes come in and MrBug certainly looks the most guilty. The Inspector takes him away and at that point the GUESTS WIN! There are 8 surviving guests and 3 surviving team members. Lathum - The Gadabout RendeR - voted out, Day 2 - Joseph Winston Gonzo - voted out, Day 3 - The Chambermaid ArlingtonColt - The Socialite Neon_Chaos - The Elderly Gent PurdueBrad - shot to death - The Butler Passacaglia - Daria Winston Barkeep49 - shot to death - The Vicar EagleFan - stabbed to death - The Daughter MrBug708 - voted out on Day 4 - Mrs. Winston St. Cronin - The Driver Oliegirl - The Colonel ntndeacon - Mr. Winston SnDvls - The Neighbor DaddyTorgo - The Gossip Saldana - The Lush Alan T - shot to death - The Professor Telle - stabbed to death - The Cook Path12 - The Eccentric

09-23-2007, 11:33 PM	#512
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	I am guessing Peregrine didn't count on the mass reveal. So who were the sympathizers?

09-24-2007, 12:00 AM	#515
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	I think I owe it to Alan to reveal my strategy. I knew I had my one time seer scan and I figured night 3 would be the best time to use it. I also knew I had to stay alive until then so I tried to play a little crazy so the baddies would want me around to run interference. ALan is always a good person to instigate because he is always up to a challange ( I mean that in a good way)

09-24-2007, 06:54 AM	#519
Passacaglia Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Big Ten Country	Peregrine, can we get a run-down of night actions? I guess I only got to act for one night, but I'm curious as to who killed who, and what the upstairs and downstairs team did.

09-24-2007, 08:05 AM	#524
Peregrine Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Cary, NC	As far as actions, there was a lot of searching, and mostly, as you would expect, the upstairs and downstairs teams did the killing. Render killed Telle the first night, and PurdueBrad killed Eaglefan, while ntndeacon killed Barkeep49. The second night only ntndeacon was killed, by PurdueBrad. The third night st.cronin killed Alan T and ArlingtonColt killed PurdueBrad. There were some other secret roles available, The Colonel had a bodyguard role for example, and others had one shot roles such as a one time seer ability, etc. One thing for the next game if I ran this again, I might include the supporters as full members of the team. This would help give the teams some full reveal protection and they would be the hardest to find out.

09-24-2007, 08:44 AM	#525
Barkeep49 Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Not too far away	Another thought would be the way CR handled this in his game which is to have extra villager roles and the bad guys knowing which roles were taken so they could fake reveal.

09-24-2007, 09:44 AM	#526
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	so PurdueBrad, did you think you were fooling anyone

09-24-2007, 12:08 PM	#530
Passacaglia Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Big Ten Country	I thought about doing a fake reveal, but at that point in the game, I thought it would have been too tough to pull off. Plus, I had it in my mind that either Alan or Lathum was really the Lush, hoping to catch someone revealing as that. In the end, I was hoping for more politics to come into play, where I would try to get the guests to help me out for a while, but I spent my only night keeping myself alive.

09-24-2007, 02:09 PM	#536
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	I guess I still don't understand what kind of game Peregrine thought this would be, with, basically, no fake reveals possible. __________________ co-commish: bb-bbcf.net knives out

09-24-2007, 03:45 PM	#541
SnDvls Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2001	after I had done the post on RendeR I realized it might backfire...I knew MrBug was on the upstairs and didn't really think RendeR was on the upstairs until he threw NTN out there whom I was pretty sure was up there too, but it was too late at that time. I did embellish my night view a little as my original PM said there were drops of blood on the ground behind him, but I needed it to stick and be a good night view. Once I knew RendeR was upstairs it was too late to change at that point, but I was hoping the upstairs would either 1) kill me or 2) get the numbers back by eliminating the downstairs team by 2. It did really hurt that every role was in the game and I think that greatly hindered the two teams.

09-24-2007, 03:45 PM	#542
Peregrine Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Cary, NC	That said, I still maintain, probably controversially, that even with the full reveal the teams could have fairly easily made sure that one of them would win, instead of the guests.

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