Werewolf LVII: Cathedral (GAME OVER!)

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

since you guys lynched me day 1, i'm rooting for the wolves

Not that you hold a grudge or anything though, right???

[Passacaglia]

Damnit -- if DT isn't rooting for us, we're screwed!

[saldana]

torgo not cheering for us is the least of our concerns, as far as i am concerned.

[oliegirl]

I thought we had a 10 pm write up coming...what's up BK???

[Neon_Chaos]

He was here a moment ago. I think he left.

[Abe Sargent]

poke

[Barkeep49]

You wake in the morning to find the Cathedral unharmed! You have done it! You have finished your project. Sure saldana died over night, but you have built something which will stand the test of time as proof of your love for God.

Technically the Cathedral would have to stand to the end of the day but as that seems like a foregone conclusion, as there's no way to do damage to it during the day, I figured I'd end the game now.

Bishop: Neon Chaos (Became Corrupted to Demon Side) Lost
Bishop's Assistaint: ntndeacon Dead
Lord Leige: Alan T (Azazel/Duke) Lost
Knight: Lathum Dead
Page: oliegirl (Bodyguard) Normal Victory
Friar: saldana Dead
Novice: Chief Rum Dead
Peon: path12 Normal Victory
Moneylender: DaddyTorgo (Seer) Dead
Goldsmith: Mr. Wednesday (Beezlebub) Lost
Blacksmith: Pass (Michah) Major Victory
Shepard: st.cronin (Gabriel) Dead
Mason: Schmidty Normal Victory
Butcher: Anxiety (Lucifer) Lost
Carpenter: PurdueBrad Normal Victory
Musician: RendeR (cultist) Dead

Thanks to everyone who played. I hope you had a good time.

[saldana]

great game barkeep, thanks!

was there a conversion at some point or were there that many demons to start with?

how did Neon become corrupted...was it a mechanic or a decision on his part?

i cant believe it ended like this....Demons, why didnt you use your unblockable attack to kill pass...the game would have been over and you would have won? (which is what i was thinking was going to happen when i kept saying the game was over and we lost)

[Alan T]

Only have a second, about to go pumpkin picking.

We didn't have an unblockable attack. It was in the ruleset, but there was no leviathan in the game. If we had gone after pass, we were afraid that one of two things would happen:

1) We would be blocked
2) THere would be another 3rd angel to balance out the 3 demons we started with.

if we had destroyed the cathedral, it would have just been rebuilt the following day with Anxiety likely killed and we could only destroy it 2 nights in a row, not more.

So we were forced into trying to kill a villager and hope there were 3 angels for us to try to win by a 1:1 ratio with the villagers.

As it ends out, there were 4 villagers left and 3? demons.. I'm not sure what role Neon was in at the end, I wasn't around for the last day or so on forums, and Anxiety, Mr.W and I were communicating via email (so I could check it from my phone). I had asked Anxiety if he understood what it meant by him corrupting Neon, but he didn't know either.. So we went on the assumption that he was a villager who just had a winning condition now.

It wasn't a real conversion or we would have won I guess from a 1:1 ratio. So Im not sure what else we could have done to won. I didn't work on the cathedral once the entire game (I faked it every time I did do work there). And we didn't have any real bad lynches. Guess we just got unlucky. Sorry I wasnt around more, I did have fun though.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by saldana

great game barkeep, thanks!

was there a conversion at some point or were there that many demons to start with?

how did Neon become corrupted...was it a mechanic or a decision on his part?

i cant believe it ended like this....Demons, why didnt you use your unblockable attack to kill pass...the game would have been over and you would have won? (which is what i was thinking was going to happen when i kept saying the game was over and we lost)

It doesn't look like the demons had a Leviathan -- remember, not all the roles were necessarily going to be included in the game.

Wow, the demons had me snowed over. I had it in my mind that Neon Chaos had a victory condition to kill both Gabriel and Lucifer, and I was all set to come out trying to convince everyone to vote for him instead of Anxiety.

This game was a ton of fun! Neon, you were probably right that the reveal was a bad move, but I thought that the game would be over by the end of Day 4.

I gotta say, I really like having cronin for a teammate. This is at least the second time in the last 5 or so games that we have, and I feel like I can always find something to call him out on in the thread, even though we can PM. Even though it says Dead by his name, he deserves the major victory, too (more than you rotten villagers deserve the normal victory ). Too bad he was sick when the fun stuff went down!

I'm curious about the motivation for killing saldana, too. I figured the best move was to attack the cathedral tonight, hoping olie protected me, then kill me the next night. Alan, I see you in the thread -- was your plan to switch to cronin if necessary before deadline last night?

Thanks for running this, Barkeep! There was a lot of interesting stuff going on here, and I think if we played it again, having the rules down, all the sides would be playing against each other more.

[Lathum]

I wanna know how the hell Anxiety is the lynch candidate, AlanT dukes to me and saves Anxiety, and then cronin gets lynched the next day?

How on earth can Anxiety NOT be lynched instead of Cronin, that way there is the potential for a 2 for one with AlanT and Anxiety.

And as the Duke I think it is a terrible play to send in a coditional oreder way before the deadline, as we see alot of things can change.


I thought it was a fun game but am surprised the villagers won, I thought they played horribly.

[Lathum]

Dola- And why did you duke me?

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I wanna know how the hell Anxiety is the lynch candidate, AlanT dukes to me and saves Anxiety, and then cronin gets lynched the next day?

How on earth can Anxiety NOT be lynched instead of Cronin, that way there is the potential for a 2 for one with AlanT and Anxiety.

And as the Duke I think it is a terrible play to send in a coditional oreder way before the deadline, as we see alot of things can change.


I thought it was a fun game but am surprised the villagers won, I thought they played horribly.

Cause I'm just that good at convincing people. And Pass just sounded desperate enough to turn off the others.

Basically, I knew Cronin was Gabriel, and Anxiety was Lucifer. To win, I had to survive. But then I hedged in my chips with the baddies, thinking that they would win the game. Looking back, I really couldn't have done anything much, considering they would kill me if I ever betrayed them.

Oh well. If this game was regular werewolf, the Wolves would won solidly.

Thanks for the game Barkeep.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Dola- And why did you duke me?

Because AlanT is a demon.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Because AlanT is a demon.

and after he pulled that move I am amazed people couldn't figure that one out

[Barkeep49]

Here's Neon's original PM:

You are the Bishop. You are a man of great power and influence and you are quite proud of your position. Of course you would never have reached your position of great power and influence if not for some questionable morals.

You have the ability to send a message each night, through prayer (aka the GM), to Lucifer and Gabriel. One time you will, due to your influence, not be lynched if you have the most votes. If you reveal this ability before using it, you will lose its use. At a certain point it might be required of you to make a choice about which side you will serve. Until that time you win with no side and will be considered a winner only if you’re still alive when the game ends.

On Day 4 he could choose 1 team to receive a reply from. He choose the demons, as he'd really be angling for them from the start. Anxiety choose to PM with him openly. On Night 4, Anxiety had the choice to corrupt him or leave him independent. Anxiety corrupted him at that point. He then became a sort of enhanced cultist being able to know the identities of the Demons and also PM with them freely. If he'd have chosen the Angels on Day 4, they'd have gotten the option to purify him and he'd have become a sort of anti-cultist. In either case he remained a villager.

The only other things that weren't in the original role descriptions were Lathum's ability to fight off a night attack, something which he didn't know was his ability when he claimed it, and Chief becoming an Angel if he was killed by the Demons.

Overall, I am happy with how the game turned out. If I had to do it over I would have given the Cathedral more damage on Day 1 and had it not be that the Cathedral had to be undamaged for a full day, but merely had to be undamaged at the end of two consecutive days.

[st.cronin]

This was a fun game; one thing I think people didn't realize is that Anxiety and I could freely pm.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

This was a fun game; one thing I think people didn't realize is that Anxiety and I could freely pm.

It was interesting to see how the angels decided through Day 4 to be open and honest with the Demons. I wasn't really sure how having the leaders of the two factions PM each other would turn out but think that aspect worked somewhat well in that it created a nice explosion on Day 4.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

This was a fun game; one thing I think people didn't realize is that Anxiety and I could freely pm.

What was that like, anyway? I was already thinking of having something like that in my next game, but I'm not sure how it will affect gameplay.

[oliegirl]

I'm amazed that we won...we didn't play very well, but at least we accomplished what we set out to do. Thanks for running this BK!!!

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Lathum

and after he pulled that move I am amazed people couldn't figure that one out

I was willing to trust him. It was a duke role, which is usually good, submitted way before any of the reveals happened.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

It was interesting to see how the angels decided through Day 4 to be open and honest with the Demons. I wasn't really sure how having the leaders of the two factions PM each other would turn out but think that aspect worked somewhat well in that it created a nice explosion on Day 4.

I think we were worried that NC had completely different victory conditions from everyone, and we thought that the angels and demons needed to team up to mess with him. But I think we threw out some things to the demons just to mess with them, too.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

What was that like, anyway? I was already thinking of having something like that in my next game, but I'm not sure how it will affect gameplay.

It was kind of neat. Its effects on gameplay were pretty limited: I kept asking the demons to try to kill Lathum, and based on Abe's responses I felt pretty confident that Lathum was a villager, which was somewhat helpful to us. Our victory conditions were too at odds for us to ever come to any sort of tete-a-tete, I think. I think the main function of that part of the game was to entertain Barkeep.

[st.cronin]

dola, one other thing Pass didn't even know: Part of my role was that I could EITHER vote for Lucifer only on odd days, OR not vote for him at all until day 4, when I could vote for him every day (but still not name him).

What Pass did know, was, that I could not be night killed as long as Lucifer was in the game (I don't know if the demons knew this, I suspect they did).

So the strategy we developed was to shoot for the major victory (completing the cathedral), and try to find a demon other than Lucifer to lynch to keep them from getting 1:1 with the village (which we were pretty worried about).

Unfortunately, I just couldn't tell Pass who Lucifer was, and my hints it turned out were pretty bad - I think for most of the game he thought I was talking about Alan T.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by Lathum

and after he pulled that move I am amazed people couldn't figure that one out

i knew it...if we were still playing, i would be listing Anxiety (obvious), Alan, and Neon as my votes...Neon was too obvious to me on the last day in the way in which he kept ignoring the fact he was voting in the face of overwhelming evidence.

i dont know if i would have ever caught Wednesday.

Originally Posted by Lathum

I wanna know how the hell Anxiety is the lynch candidate, AlanT dukes to me and saves Anxiety, and then cronin gets lynched the next day?

How on earth can Anxiety NOT be lynched instead of Cronin, that way there is the potential for a 2 for one with AlanT and Anxiety.

look at the vote..the two angels realized they could win, even if cronin died and both spent both their action points on the cathedral instead of voting...if they had voted anxiety, they would have been enough to swing it the other way.

Olie, not singling you out, but what were you thinking that day? Was it just because Pass was being so push with you?

[Abe Sargent]

I enjoyed the pm with cronin aspect of the game, but I felt that the game was difficult for the wolves to win, especially with a 3-2 angel ratio, which made it harder for the wolves.

The Cathedral gets built early, so the wolves have to play an aggressive game to win. Combine that with the two nights and that's it rule and as soon as the cathedral is built, which happens in a few days, the game is on a timer.

With a basic timeline, it makes it almost impossible to win for wolves, assuming all good stuff. Example:

Day One - Lynch Villager. Ratio is 3-10
N1 - Kill Anohter. 3-9.
D2 - Lynch Villager - 3-8.
N2 - Kill Villager because damage won;t stop Cathedral being built. 3-7
D3 - Lynch Villager - 3-6. Cathedral Built.
N3 - Destroy Cathedral
D4 - Lynch Villager - 3-5
N5 -Destroy Cathedral
D5 - Lynch Villager 3-4.
N5 - Kill Villager - 3-3 Wolves win
D6 - Game Over if wolves don;t win

This is the outline I'd expect for a basic game under this ruleset. Assuming every single kill in the game is a villager, the wolves win just before the village does. One block, one wolf or angel kill by lynch, one angel kill at night, and the wolves simply cannot win with a basic outline.

Now, we benefitted from taking out the seer early and some dumb plays ont eh village's part out here during the day, and even then, we couldn;t win, because we got the bg block once.

Tough.

[Barkeep49]

Anxiety: I agree that the way the game was setup put the demons at a disadvantage. I really wish I had made the Cathedral harder to construct at the outset and then slightly lessened the amount of damage the demons did to each night. I think this, more than the roles themselves, is what screwed the demons.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

dola, one other thing Pass didn't even know: Part of my role was that I could EITHER vote for Lucifer only on odd days, OR not vote for him at all until day 4, when I could vote for him every day (but still not name him).

What Pass did know, was, that I could not be night killed as long as Lucifer was in the game (I don't know if the demons knew this, I suspect they did).

So the strategy we developed was to shoot for the major victory (completing the cathedral), and try to find a demon other than Lucifer to lynch to keep them from getting 1:1 with the village (which we were pretty worried about).

Unfortunately, I just couldn't tell Pass who Lucifer was, and my hints it turned out were pretty bad - I think for most of the game he thought I was talking about Alan T.

I think it was Day 2 when you figured out that I thought Alan T was Lucifer. Then it was late Day 3 or maybe Day 3 that I figured out it was Anxiety, I think. I was a little worried about what to do with that info, though, since I thought that I wasn't supposed to know.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Anxiety: I agree that the way the game was setup put the demons at a disadvantage. I really wish I had made the Cathedral harder to construct at the outset and then slightly lessened the amount of damage the demons did to each night. I think this, more than the roles themselves, is what screwed the demons.

I thought that it seemed balanced, but I think the villagers just weren't worried about how building the Cathedral gives the Angels the win. I kept focusing on the Cathedral, but was worried that the villagers would call me out as an Angel, and purposely NOT build the Cathedral, instead focusing on the demons. I think Lathum mentioned that idea a couple times, but it never went anywhere. I guess that's one thing I'm proud of from the last day -- like cronin said, it didn't matter much to us angels whether he or Anxiety got lynched, as long as the Cathedral was built.

[Abe Sargent]

Note that we came one bg block within winning the game outright.

[st.cronin]

I agree the game was tough for the demons, and perhaps too easy for the angels. I think maybe publishing the angels victory conditions only to the demons, and keeping it secret from the village, might have helped balance it a bit - although that might have made the game too hard for everybody.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I agree the game was tough for the demons, and perhaps too easy for the angels. I think maybe publishing the angels victory conditions only to the demons, and keeping it secret from the village, might have helped balance it a bit - although that might have made the game too hard for everybody.

I'm not so sure about that. I did a little of that with the Bishop's mysterious victory conditions, but think it might have been too much to do that with the Angels as well, or even in place of doing the Bishop role.

[oliegirl]

Olie, not singling you out, but what were you thinking that day? Was it just because Pass was being so push with you?

Yeah, that was it. He came at me so strong that I thought for sure he was a demon trying to convince people to vote for me or something. No one had been suspicious of me all game, and then all of a sudden he was just all over me, and then he'd say "it's not personal, it's just the game" and in his next post, make some other comment that made it look like he was trying to throw everyone's suspicions my way.

[st.cronin]

Saldana, was there anything other than coincidence behind your vote on day 2? Why did you say you were planning to vote with the Bishop?

I haven't been able to figure out that sequence at all.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Saldana, was there anything other than coincidence behind your vote on day 2? Why did you say you were planning to vote with the Bishop?

I haven't been able to figure out that sequence at all.

on day one, it seemed that Neon was the only person that was sure of Torgo being good...i noticed that he apparently became more sure after torgo made more statements about it.

Barkeep used a role in the Spawn game where a player had the ability to test another players statement in the thread to see if he were telling the truth.

i thought Neon may have had a similar role. i even reconciled it in my head to fit the theme of the game...thinking neon's secret power was to be able to know if someone were telling him the truth based on having heard confessions

with all that in mind, i was waiting for Neon to do the same thing on Day 2 .

so yes, it was a total coincidence that i changed mt votes after the Ni codeword came out.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by saldana

Barkeep used a role in the Spawn game where a player had the ability to test another players statement in the thread to see if he were telling the truth.

i thought Neon may have had a similar role. i even reconciled it in my head to fit the theme of the game...thinking neon's secret power was to be able to know if someone were telling him the truth based on having heard confessions

This is exactly the sort of thing I would do.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

This is exactly the sort of thing I would do.

which one...have the role in the game, or assume the role is in the game and justify it to yourself?

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by saldana

which one...have the role in the game, or assume the role is in the game and justify it to yourself?

Both but I was talking more about re-purposing it and putting it in games. You can definitely see a lot of game mechanics that pop-up in more than one game of mine. The idea of the bishop being able to tell the truth because of confessions is exactly the sort of rationalization I would do. It's a shame I didn't think of it .

[Mr. Wednesday]

I think the biggest hindrance for the wolves is that it was a little too difficult to use fake work to keep the cathedral from being built. It seemed like every day, work was divided so evenly that not working would stick out like a sore thumb.

To add onto the complaints about difficulty for the wolves, we had two things go right for us: in addition to the seer kill, on the day of the Duking, everyone got SO caught up in voting that the villagers missed a chance to finish the cathedral. I'm not sure the balance is quite right, but I'm not sure exactly how I'd fix it.

[Barkeep49]

I started off with 38 units of work on the Cathedral. I think the right answer would be more like 48-56. 48 actually is 3 days worth of work if everyone works 1 unit and casts a vote 1 unit. Throw some damage in there to counteract the people who work 2 units and I think it would give the wolves a fighting chance. I doubt I'd ever do a sequel to this one since a lot of what made the game balanced was the uncertainty over what the various roles were for the villagers. If I did a sequel it would have to have a different setting, if the same general premise.

[Poli]

Schmidty lived through a game?

[jeheinz72]

Great game to read folks, I was going back and forth on who was who right with ya. Thankfully, I didn't have to make any actual decisions...

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by jeheinz72

Great game to read folks, I was going back and forth on who was who right with ya. Thankfully, I didn't have to make any actual decisions...

You should join up for the next game!

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

Alright guys, I'm going to be gone for the evening. If you don't know, I teach English and I've got the opportunity to go to a reading and meet and greet with author Nick Hornby (wrote High Fidelity, About a Boy, and several other solid books). So here are my actions, hopefully they help the village. Also, my night action will be in play tonight.

Work on carpentry
Work on carpentry

Hey, we never got a report on this. How was it?

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Hey, we never got a report on this. How was it?

Actually, it was awesome. Really funny guy, spent a ton of time with the crowd. It was nice, only about 30-40 people there, so small group. He read from his new book Slam which is marketed as Young Adult literature although even Hornby said that it really isn't that different from most of what he's done. After he read a chapter (and did it well I might add), he answered questions for about 30-40 minutes and then signed for about an hour and a half. I got to chat with him for about five minutes and found him to be very down to earth. As a teacher, it was cool to find out that he, too, taught for a couple years (ESL teacher). I liked his new book but can kind of see why it is getting pigeon-holed as Y.A. lit but thought that it was still a good read.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by Alan T

You should join up for the next game!

I would, but I leave for a week-long vacation tomorrow. Trust me, I'd love to, since I already over-estimated this game and how long it would take (I thought I'd be gone before it ended, looks like I was wrong).

I'll be in most games though after this pesky Mexican vacation stuff I have to tend to.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

Schmidty lived through a game?

I got skills, yo.