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Old 01-30-2008, 09:53 AM   #1401
claphamsa
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well, this could be interesting....

Heinze is pretty good with the fake reveal... but the timeing makes it a bad idea to be fake. we have one couger left. so even if hes faking and we lynch jackall... we ca still get heinze tommorow!

vote jackall
vote nightfall
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Old 01-30-2008, 09:57 AM   #1402
claphamsa
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I am curious tho, becasue the rules say nothign about not being able to convert the fish when only one faction is still alive.
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Old 01-30-2008, 09:57 AM   #1403
jeheinz72
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I had no idea until I got CR's PM this morning. I was kinda hoping to convert to be honest, I figured it was an easy way to get a win for myself!
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Old 01-30-2008, 10:25 AM   #1404
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I'll take a chance and believe jeheinz72:

Vote TheJackal
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Old 01-30-2008, 11:31 AM   #1405
path12
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Wait a minute. You're the fish but you weren't converted? That doesn't make any sense.
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Old 01-30-2008, 11:32 AM   #1406
jeheinz72
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Originally Posted by path12 View Post
Wait a minute. You're the fish but you weren't converted? That doesn't make any sense.

It was news to me! I was all set to flip sides thinking surely they'd find me as the group whittled down.
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Old 01-30-2008, 11:51 AM   #1407
oliegirl
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VOTE THEJACKAL

No other "real" information to go to off of, seems odd that they couldn't convert Heinz...I didn't see anything from TheJackal, so he either knows he's busted, or he hasn't been able to check in yet. Either way, I don't see that we have a choice.

Oh yeah, also -

VOTE NIGHTFALL
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Old 01-30-2008, 12:07 PM   #1408
jeheinz72
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Oh, since I didn't have it

Vote nightfall
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:39 PM   #1409
The Jackal
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Well guys, I wanted to post this last night but I'm pretty sick and I had to wait for a rule clarification. Actually, I'm the fish, and heinze was the one coming to look for me. What he said is true, I lasted long enough that when the cougars came to look for me, they'd lost their chance to convert me.

I doubt you're going to believe me at this point, but if you end up lynching me then youll know that heinze is one of the last two cougars. Here's the problem..

There's seven of us left. If you lynch me and let someone else die, it's going to be 3-2 in the workers favor. Then you'll kill heinze and it'll be 2-1, and you'll have one last shot. If you listen to me, and hopefully believe me and realize that heinze jumped on it before I got a chance to post, then we'll lynch heinze, and they'll kill me tonight and it'll be 4-1 workers. It's up to you..

I'm not sure what else I can say to convince you that I'm the real fish. Hell, I even asked a question about the fish mid-way through the game to try and show the wolves I was the fish, because yes, I wanted to be converted. But they never found me until too late. I seriously doubt many of you are going to believe me, I've been quiet this game, and this will look like a cop out by a cougar trying to save myself, but like I said, when I am revealed as the fish and you go down 3-2, at least you'll be setup to have one chance at 2-1.
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:40 PM   #1410
The Jackal
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Oh, vote heinze

By the way, I have no idea who his partner is, it only told me which one of the wolves tried to convert me.
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:44 PM   #1411
jeheinz72
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Color me unsurprised and uninspired by the defense.




P.S. hope you feel better bro
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:45 PM   #1412
The Jackal
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Originally Posted by claphamsa View Post
well, this could be interesting....

Heinze is pretty good with the fake reveal... but the timeing makes it a bad idea to be fake. we have one couger left. so even if hes faking and we lynch jackall... we ca still get heinze tommorow!

vote jackall
vote nightfall

He is faking, and if you lynch me you will get him tomorrow, but there are two cougars left, not one. Listen guys, if we lynch heinze today, it's pretty much assured the other cougar will kill me tonight (unless she wants to cause dissention and try to get you to lynch me tomorrow). I don't know what to tell you, I was gonna post last night but wasn't sure if I could reveal or if I had to nail heinze without flat out telling he was a wolf. I woke up at 1:30 because I'm sick, and so, I missed my chance to post first. Believe me, and you'll be up 4-1 tomorrow..
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:47 PM   #1413
The Jackal
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Originally Posted by jeheinz72 View Post
Color me unsurprised and uninspired by the defense.




P.S. hope you feel better bro

Thanks, appreciate it. Honestly I don't know how to defend myself other than letting you all kill me and then you'll see I'm the fish. But I'm not going to give up, because 4-1 odds for the department are much better than 3-2/2-1 remaining. Again the only thing I can think of that might convince you is the post I made about the fish mid-way through the game, the only reason I asked it was to try and alert the wolves that I was the fish. Sure, that was kind of being an ass to the department, but hey, I win with the department now and I'm doing what I can to give you guys the best shot at victory.
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:49 PM   #1414
path12
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Thanks, appreciate it. Honestly I don't know how to defend myself other than letting you all kill me and then you'll see I'm the fish. But I'm not going to give up, because 4-1 odds for the department are much better than 3-2/2-1 remaining. Again the only thing I can think of that might convince you is the post I made about the fish mid-way through the game, the only reason I asked it was to try and alert the wolves that I was the fish. Sure, that was kind of being an ass to the department, but hey, I win with the department now and I'm doing what I can to give you guys the best shot at victory.

Do you have a post number for that comment?
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:50 PM   #1415
path12
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And dola, for Heinz -- did you ever hint at being the fish? Post number?
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:50 PM   #1416
The Jackal
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Do you have a post number for that comment?

Ill look for it right now.
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:52 PM   #1417
The Jackal
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It was my impression from reading the rules that converting the fish was part of day actions? But that's a good question. If the fish gets converted by one of the WW factions do they have to use a "night kill" on the fish to convert them, or is it automatic?

Right here, post #934.
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:54 PM   #1418
The Jackal
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Just like I told you when you tried to convert me heinze, we'll see what happens. Both of us are going to die here pretty soon, it's just a matter of which one goes first. Hope that your partner can win it for ya.
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:59 PM   #1419
The Jackal
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Originally Posted by jeheinz72 View Post
Something is definitely up with Jackal. Not sure I can put my finger on it. I actually haven't played with him much (we both ran like all the games at TSW for awhile so we rarely both played, if ever)

I could entertain that thought.

(post #1235)

Took you long enough to figure out that I was the fish.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:08 PM   #1420
The Jackal
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Another thing, I semi-suspected Heinz of being a wolf in the first few days, which is why I followed his voting.. for one trying to maybe get him and his wolves to find me as the fish, but also so that it looked like I was a good person to keep around because I kept voting for the crew that the cougars were voting off (I believe heinz and I were the first to vote for fink and his "inactivity"). It seemed to work, as I'm still alive.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:19 PM   #1421
Mr. Wednesday
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Originally Posted by path12 View Post
Mr W -- was right on Pass. always plays same game, hard to read. would he toss under the bus?
Um, I'm gone. Fired. Night kill by the wolves. Nice to know that even with my allegiance announced by the GM, you still don't trust me.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:21 PM   #1422
jeheinz72
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And dola, for Heinz -- did you ever hint at being the fish? Post number?

Not overtly no. I actually tried to stay away from the topic since I didn't know if I personally was better off converted or not. For a long while I wanted to stay Department since wolves were coming off left and right. Then when it was official yesterday that all of the Crew were gone I figured I could get a quick win by getting converted and I mentioned the Fish then, post # 1321

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeheinz72 View Post
Plus if I'm doing the math right, there are 9 people left and we know at least 3 Cougars on the prowl. That's with the thought that the Fish hasn't been converted at all. If he has, heck we're one mis-step from losing. So, for me, if it boils down to one vote by me with the entire department life on the line, I feel most confident in the vote for you.

I still didn't want to be too overt about it, for fear if lots of people caught on they'd lynch me so I couldn't get converted to a Cougar. (that wasn't bolded when I posted it of course).
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:23 PM   #1423
The Jackal
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Wait a minute. You're the fish but you weren't converted? That doesn't make any sense.

Oh and to answer this question, though I think heinz already did because he was obviously involved in the situation - I was ready to join a wolf faction the entire game, but once the crew was completely eliminated with only one cougar down, it was decided that as the fish I couldn't trust the cougars because of how well they shot down their fellow wolves. Hope that helps.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:26 PM   #1424
jeheinz72
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Another thing, I semi-suspected Heinz of being a wolf in the first few days, which is why I followed his voting.. for one trying to maybe get him and his wolves to find me as the fish, but also so that it looked like I was a good person to keep around because I kept voting for the crew that the cougars were voting off (I believe heinz and I were the first to vote for fink and his "inactivity"). It seemed to work, as I'm still alive.

Ha, I actually thought you were innocent until this. I figured only someone as misguided in their votes as I was must be akin to me in some respect. I figured maybe the Comic.

But now that I look back, knowing what I know now, at all the votes and see you actually were successful on getting the Crew out (you voted Farrah out while I was stuck on Mau and you voted bsak over the weekend I was gone) it makes a lot more sense to me. Of course Chief's PM telling me you're a wolf always helps clear things up!
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:28 PM   #1425
The Jackal
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Ha, I actually thought you were innocent until this. I figured only someone as misguided in their votes as I was must be akin to me in some respect. I figured maybe the Comic.

But now that I look back, knowing what I know now, at all the votes and see you actually were successful on getting the Crew out (you voted Farrah out while I was stuck on Mau and you voted bsak over the weekend I was gone) it makes a lot more sense to me. Of course Chief's PM telling me you're a wolf always helps clear things up!

You're a fine opponent heinz, I don't expect to turn up a piece of evidence that will overwhelminglty convince people to vote for you. They are either going to keep believing you, or realize how good you are at lying and listen to me. The only solace I have is that even if they lynch me before lynching you, they'll still have a chance on the last day of taking out your partner.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:28 PM   #1426
jeheinz72
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Oh and to answer this question, though I think heinz already did because he was obviously involved in the situation - I was ready to join a wolf faction the entire game, but once the crew was completely eliminated with only one cougar down, it was decided that as the fish I couldn't trust the cougars because of how well they shot down their fellow wolves. Hope that helps.

I did answer it, good job paraphrasing my post. Convenient for ya that

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeheinz72 View Post
See, I'm the Fish. I guess no one bothered to actually try me until last night when I was told The Jackal came to see me. He was told that I wouldn't convert since the Crew was taken out so well and I was told he's a COUGAR!
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:29 PM   #1427
The Jackal
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I did answer it, good job paraphrasing my post. Convenient for ya that

Meh, we did get the same PM.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:32 PM   #1428
The Jackal
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You know heinz, you never mentioned the role adjustment that -I- received the day before you tried to convert me. You make it sound like the fish just suddenly found out they weren't going to convert when the cougar found them. Well, that wasn't the case at all. I was told beforehand that if a cougar finally found me, I'd know exactly which one it was, and I wouldn't be converted. You wouldn't know that, because you were never the fish, and never had your role adjusted.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:33 PM   #1429
The Jackal
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Here it is guys, if it's just going to be me and heinz bickering back and forth all day I doubt much is going to get accomplished. A few of you have already voted for me and nightfall - what about the others? Does anyone who hasn't voted believe me? If we can just get a few votes on heinz maybe it'll be enough to convince some of those nightfallers that voted before I had a chance to respond that heinz is the one we should be going after here. I'm sure you could win with 2-1 remaining, but wouldn't 4-1 be much more comfortable?
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:35 PM   #1430
jeheinz72
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You're a fine opponent heinz, I don't expect to turn up a piece of evidence that will overwhelminglty convince people to vote for you. They are either going to keep believing you, or realize how good you are at lying and listen to me. The only solace I have is that even if they lynch me before lynching you, they'll still have a chance on the last day of taking out your partner.

That's the catch. I also can't lay claim that I have any clue who you're working with. You and your fellow wolf really did a good job of mixing up you're votes. It's like you aren't aligned in the same vote with anyone left alive more than any other (when landslides like pass's lynch are cancelled out). You've voted with path, Render, olie, Schimdty and me each twice and claphamsa once.

But I do see that you voted with SnDvls and Pass both times to get a Crew out (Farrah and Fink), and again with Pass to get Mau and bsak lynched. Of course you voted for Pass like we all did yesterday.

I'd agree though, it all just boils down to if they believe me as they should or if your mimic'ing posts muddle the issue and confuse enough of them to go with you.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:36 PM   #1431
jeheinz72
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You know heinz, you never mentioned the role adjustment that -I- received the day before you tried to convert me. You make it sound like the fish just suddenly found out they weren't going to convert when the cougar found them. Well, that wasn't the case at all. I was told beforehand that if a cougar finally found me, I'd know exactly which one it was, and I wouldn't be converted. You wouldn't know that, because you were never the fish, and never had your role adjusted.

Because that isn't true. You're making up a pre-ordained fact that makes your case look better. You're right, I didn't get such a PM, because such a PM didn't exist.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:36 PM   #1432
The Jackal
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How about the role adjustment? Your turn to mimic. Except in this case, you have nothing to go off of because, whoops! You didn't receive -that- PM.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:38 PM   #1433
The Jackal
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Because that isn't true. You're making up a pre-ordained fact that makes your case look better. You're right, I didn't get such a PM, because such a PM didn't exist.

You think the fish would just be left in the dark like that? No way. How was I supposed to play if suddenly the wolves found me and I found out I wouldn't be switching right there? It was your fault you took so long to find me, now you're outed. Well, we're both outed, but most importantly you are outed. The main thing here is trying to figure out who your partner is. I'm guessing it's one of the people who already voted for me, maybe Schmidty, he's been awful quiet this game (I know he had a recent excuse, but still, being that under the radar is very wolfish).
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:41 PM   #1434
jeheinz72
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How about the role adjustment? Your turn to mimic. Except in this case, you have nothing to go off of because, whoops! You didn't receive -that- PM.

Look again.

I'll agree on your main point, look folks 4:1 is much nicer than 2:1. That's what's really at risk here. We lynch Jackal, it's 4:1 and we just have to get one of the next two lynches correct. If you lynch me, we gotta hit on one attempt when it's down to 3 people left.

I don't really think you need to look much farther as far as who to believe than the votes, here are snapshots of just myself and Jackal

Jackal: jeheinz72, fink (Crew), Farrah (Crew), Mau (dept.), bsak (Crew), Pass (Cougar landslide)

jeheinz72: Jackal, fink (Crew), mau (dept), Mau (dept), N/A, Pass (Cougar landslide)

Funny he was 3 for 3 in the lynch attempts on Crew members. I was 1 for 2 (with an N/A because I didn't get on over the weekend).

Who here looks more like a Cougar wolf member to you?
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:43 PM   #1435
jeheinz72
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You think the fish would just be left in the dark like that? No way. How was I supposed to play if suddenly the wolves found me and I found out I wouldn't be switching right there? It was your fault you took so long to find me, now you're outed. Well, we're both outed, but most importantly you are outed. The main thing here is trying to figure out who your partner is. I'm guessing it's one of the people who already voted for me, maybe Schmidty, he's been awful quiet this game (I know he had a recent excuse, but still, being that under the radar is very wolfish).

Yeah, I was in the dark like that. I'd say that my not knowing I'd be converted is akin in fairness to you not knowing I'd find out your identity when you finally found me.

Funny though, I was actually thinking one of the people that voted for you is actually your partner too. Ha.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:44 PM   #1436
The Jackal
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Hey, I'm glad I lynched all those wolves. I was a valuable part of the team. It doesn't look great now, but good lord this game has thrown in some twists. Vote off wolves and -you- look bad? Yeesh. I can't argue with the voting record because I always voted for who I thought was a wolf. And most of the time I was correct. There should be some of you who voted similarly to me that realize all of my votes were motivated by believeing people were wolves, but never, ever knowing for certain like heinz always has.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:46 PM   #1437
The Jackal
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You're too good heinz.

unvote heinz
vote jackal

I'll leave my vote on myself unless someone else comes around and starts voting for him. If you want to lynch me to find out for sure that I'm the fish, fine. It hurts you all, but I can't blame you for having trouble deciding which one of us is telling the truth. Heinz has always been, and will always be a magnificent liar.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:48 PM   #1438
jeheinz72
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Hey, I'm glad I lynched all those wolves. I was a valuable part of the team. It doesn't look great now, but good lord this game has thrown in some twists. Vote off wolves and -you- look bad? Yeesh. I can't argue with the voting record because I always voted for who I thought was a wolf. And most of the time I was correct. There should be some of you who voted similarly to me that realize all of my votes were motivated by believeing people were wolves, but never, ever knowing for certain like heinz always has.

So just to sum up, you're theorizing that I knew all the wolves and *chose* to repeatedly not vote for them? I could see that if I made a lot of my votes late in a Day, but I leave each day like 5 hours before the deadline.

If I was a Cougar, and Crew members were in contention to get lynched wouldn't I be leaving my votes on Crew members and pleading ignorance? Why, if I was a Cougar, would I just shoo-away opportunities to take out the other team?

That would make no sense from a game theory standpoint.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:50 PM   #1439
The Jackal
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So just to sum up, you're theorizing that I knew all the wolves and *chose* to repeatedly not vote for them? I could see that if I made a lot of my votes late in a Day, but I leave each day like 5 hours before the deadline.

If I was a Cougar, and Crew members were in contention to get lynched wouldn't I be leaving my votes on Crew members and pleading ignorance? Why, if I was a Cougar, would I just shoo-away opportunities to take out the other team?

That would make no sense from a game theory standpoint.

You voted off two crew (fink and farrah) on consecutive days, just like I did. As far as the other wolves went, if they were going to be lynched anyway, why would you need to add your vote? Gives you a perfectly good analysis right here about how you didn't vote for wolves. If I was a wolf, I wouldn't have voted for an opposite member every day. Looks terrible by the end of the game.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:52 PM   #1440
The Jackal
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Who did heinz vote for the day deacon got lynched?
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:54 PM   #1441
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Who did heinz vote for the day deacon got lynched?

I just found it. He voted for deacon. Why? Because pass was his fellow cougar. I didn't vote for anyone because I didn't know who the wolf was. Heinz helped save Pass' ass for another day.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:54 PM   #1442
jeheinz72
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You voted off two crew (fink and farrah) on consecutive days, just like I did. As far as the other wolves went, if they were going to be lynched anyway, why would you need to add your vote? Gives you a perfectly good analysis right here about how you didn't vote for wolves. If I was a wolf, I wouldn't have voted for an opposite member every day. Looks terrible by the end of the game.

No I didn't. I didn't vote for Farrah. My vote was on Mau that day (3, I believe).
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:58 PM   #1443
jeheinz72
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I just found it. He voted for deacon. Why? Because pass was his fellow cougar. I didn't vote for anyone because I didn't know who the wolf was. Heinz helped save Pass' ass for another day.

You're right, I was missing a day in my notes there. I did vote NTN. And conversely to your point that's no different than the day I cast no vote and you voted a Crew member out.

I also voted for NTN because I had missed the whole weekends events of Alan and Pass's tete' a tete and had no idea who to trust there (with good reason now as we see both were opposing wolves). Re-reading the posts I was hardly the only one who didn't know how to handle that debate.

One could surmise that your lack of a vote isn't that extraordinary since NTN got lynched anyhow and Pass didn't need you to vote to save him.
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Old 01-30-2008, 03:00 PM   #1444
The Jackal
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Originally Posted by jeheinz72 View Post
No I didn't. I didn't vote for Farrah. My vote was on Mau that day (3, I believe).

My fault, you are right, you didn't vote for Farrah. Kind of supports my other point about how as a wolf you wouldn't want your name on the list of people voting for her because it would lead a trail to you at the end of the game. She was going to go down either way, with your vote on Mau it looks like you didn't know she was a wolf, you sneaky bastard.
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Old 01-30-2008, 03:02 PM   #1445
jeheinz72
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...or the more Occam's Razor-y thought that I had no idea that she was a wolf at all...heck, even as the Fish that I am I'd rather have voted for her than the innocent Mau.
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Old 01-30-2008, 03:05 PM   #1446
The Jackal
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...or the more Occam's Razor-y thought that I had no idea that she was a wolf at all...heck, even as the Fish that I am I'd rather have voted for her than the innocent Mau.

Well, you knew Mau was innocent the whole time, so it was convenient that he came out with that reveal and everyone decided he had to be bad. Leaving your vote on Mau that day was pretty smart, because voting out two crew in a row would've looked bad like it does for me. I hate that voting out wolves successfully all game makes me look bad, but shoot, that's the way this game goes.
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Old 01-30-2008, 03:17 PM   #1447
path12
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Here it is guys, if it's just going to be me and heinz bickering back and forth all day I doubt much is going to get accomplished. A few of you have already voted for me and nightfall - what about the others? Does anyone who hasn't voted believe me? If we can just get a few votes on heinz maybe it'll be enough to convince some of those nightfallers that voted before I had a chance to respond that heinz is the one we should be going after here. I'm sure you could win with 2-1 remaining, but wouldn't 4-1 be much more comfortable?

I haven't decided yet, so you guys going back and forth is fine with me for now. I'm trying to catch up on something at work so it's gonna be a little bit before I can put a good focus on trying to see which of you is lying.

The good thing either way is that from what you both say the fish was not converted (which still sounds weird but I have no reason to doubt that), so there are likely just 2 wolves left, and we know that one of them is one of the two of you. So we can get down to one wolf no matter what in the next couple days. A wrong guess today puts more pressure on the next pick to make it 2-1, but I'm OK with that as long as I know we're just down to one.
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Old 01-30-2008, 03:17 PM   #1448
claphamsa
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WE shoud pay for drama this good! we got one point and then it is refuted! great stuff guys!!!! keep it up!
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Old 01-30-2008, 03:18 PM   #1449
path12
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Um, I'm gone. Fired. Night kill by the wolves. Nice to know that even with my allegiance announced by the GM, you still don't trust me.

In my defense, it was off the top of my head. Plus I was a little high.

FWIW, I totally trust you now!
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Old 01-30-2008, 03:20 PM   #1450
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Well, I'm up for answering any questions. I think we've pretty much exhausted the tidbits of information we could call each other out on, but if he finds something else I'll be ready for it. Everything we've called each other out on we've defended in turn. I was going to post my reveal last night but I needed to make sure I could, didn't want to ruin the game for everyone.
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