OT - President Bush Sings

[NoMyths]

And unlike the rest of us (excepting the press corps) he can laugh about Katrina, Scooter Libby outing a CIA agent, Cheney withholding documents from Congress...

...it sounds a little like Nero must have sounded, fiddling while Rome burned.

[Ksyrup]

I'm ignoring the political bent of this thread and going straight for the hilarity. This is probably the greatest clip of a President ever:

He channels Chevy Chase in that Paul Simon video.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

And unlike the rest of us (excepting the press corps) he can laugh about Katrina, Scooter Libby outing a CIA agent, Cheney withholding documents from Congress...

...it sounds a little like Nero must have sounded, fiddling while Rome burned.

I guess it was a bit too much to let the video stand on its own humor. The shots at Bush just seem tired. We get it; he's made mistakes. He's not even close to being the only one. You'd probably save yourself a lot of time if you just pointed out the politicians that haven't done something stupid of late.

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I guess it was a bit too much to let the video stand on its own humor. The shots at Bush just seem tired. We get it; he's made mistakes. He's not even close to being the only one. You'd probably save yourself a lot of time if you just pointed out the politicians that haven't done something stupid of late.

But...the video's not funny.

[JonInMiddleGA]

You do realize that he still polls positive with roughly 3/4 of Republican voters, right? Cheney & Libby aren't even blips on most GOP radars, and I'd say it's a safe bet that over half are more disturbed amount the money wasted trying to reclaim New Orleans from the sea than anything else about Katrina.

[NoMyths]

That's certainly one of the deeply disturbing things that has become clear about the Republican philosophy -- that even in the face of historic governmental failures, not only are folks of that mindset not appalled and trying to reclaim the party, but rather would still argue that everything that's happened over the last seven years have a model for how they want to see an administration work. I certainly have become a lot more grim about the the moral underpinnings of America when I realize that the philosophical divide between so-called conservatives and liberals are of a scale vastly larger than merely policy differences -- there seems to be a deep moral divide as well, and while both philosophies have good positions, I'd argue that videos such as this illustrate how little many people, and specifically the President of the United States, have learned from the mistakes of the last seven years. It's even illustrated in this thread.

I wish I saw more Americans standing up and saying 'No, we don't stand for this'. But when history reflects on this era, the judgment on us as a country and as citizens within it will be severe -- and justly so.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

I wish I saw more Americans standing up and saying 'No, we don't stand for this'. But when history reflects on this era, the judgment on us as a country and as citizens within it will be severe -- and justly so.

I wish I had your confidence there'll even be a country left to worry about once the current crop of liberals are done with it. Alas, I don't.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I wish I had your confidence there'll even be a country left to worry about once the current crop of liberals are done with it. Alas, I don't.

you seem like a decent guy, but man, sometimes the things you post are just...so...stupid.


:sigh:

[NoMyths]

Perhaps the difference is that I care about contributing my efforts to making sure we do. Remember, it's not like we haven't had crisis moments before -- heck, during the Civil War plenty of folks thought the country was doomed. As we enter more fully into a global society, the nature of cultural philosophy changes -- that's just part of nature, rather than any one or the other political philosophy dominating for long. But when I look to severely conservative governments, I see the same problems, rather than countries which are culturally vibrant and progressive. It's not possible to preserve one idea of America -- the best we can do is help shape it as it develops. I would argue that the way it's been shaped over the last seven years has been historically detrimental, and yet in an era of nearly unlimited information, we still don't see Americans on a major scale using the lessons of history and our global interconnectedness to change the approaches that aren't working. Perhaps it will just take another generation or so. But extremes on both the conservative and liberal sides are doing the country no good. And while I'd be hard-pressed to find an example of liberalism in work that counterbalances the problems which the conservative philosophy has brought about, it's clear that a change in perspective is going to be necessary if we are to be as great a country as we are able.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

I wish I saw more Americans standing up and saying 'No, we don't stand for this'.

in what sense? like, a revolution? cuz that ain't happening. do you mean using their votes to elect a clear alternative to the two party monopoly? that's more likely. but can you blame anyone? the south and the midwest are full to the brim of extremely stupid, literally, stupid people. there's more of them than there is logical people of reason and common sense. so it's easy to manipulate those southern/midwesterners into thinking a vote for a different party is the same thing are saying the terrorists have won and voting against a failed war strategy means you're not a patriot.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

you seem like a decent guy, but man, sometimes the things you post are just...so...stupid. (

And you seem like a fairly indecent guy but man, sometimes the things you don't seem to get are just .... so ... simple.

I have zero belief that the country survives the reign of a neophyte like Obama, at least in any recognizable fashion. Nero and/or Caligula were better equipped. I'd be even more concerned if I had any real belief he'll be alive long enough to serve even if elected.

I have only the marginal belief that Congress might have just enough grip on reality for the country to survive the misguided desired policies of Clinton, otherwise I'd be even more worried about her potential impact.

McCain is a Clintonesque disaster but seems to be the most survivable, although it doesn't make him significantly more palatable.

We're well & truly screwed at this point, the differences are just by degrees.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

in what sense? like, a revolution? cuz that ain't happening. do you mean using their votes to elect a clear alternative to the two party monopoly? that's more likely. but can you blame anyone? the south and the midwest are full to the brim of extremely stupid, literally, stupid people. there's more of them than there is logical people of reason and common sense. so it's easy to manipulate those southern/midwesterners into thinking a vote for a different party is the same thing are saying the terrorists have won and voting against a failed war strategy means you're not a patriot.

As opposed to what HA, the morally bankrupt & incapable of rational thought West & Northeast? Trust me HA, when it comes right down to it, we don't have any more use for you than you do for us.

[rkmsuf]

this thread is uplifting

[NoMyths]

Nah, whenever people talk about revolution I just shake my head at the naivety. It has to happen through community movements and the democratic process. I think a lot of it has to do with access to and the presentation of good information. Large parts of the country are still not connected to internet media, and if your daily dose of news is ten minutes of world affairs and ten minutes nationally you're not in the discussion in a way that we're now all able to be.

I do put a lot of the responsibility on the shoulders of citizens who, when faced with the ability to be better informed and to take a larger stake in and responsibility for this country, choose instead to envelop themselves in entertainment and tune out. We're in many ways at a historic crossroads, and there's no question that in time we will see a significant shift as Americans come more and more online. But such change also requires those of us who have the ability to do better to actually do so. And to choose not to is a damning indictment of us as people, considering the myths about our country we do choose to believe.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And you seem like a fairly indecent guy but man, sometimes the things you don't seem to get are just .... so ... simple.

I have zero belief that the country survives the reign of a neophyte like Obama, at least in any recognizable fashion. Nero and/or Caligula were better equipped. I'd be even more concerned if I had any real belief he'll be alive long enough to serve even if elected.

I have only the marginal belief that Congress might have just enough grip on reality for the country to survive the misguided desired policies of Clinton, otherwise I'd be even more worried about her potential impact.

McCain is a Clintonesque disaster but seems to be the most survivable, although it doesn't make him significantly more palatable.

We're well & truly screwed at this point, the differences are just by degrees.

what are your thoughts on McCain?

i personally think, since i like to read between the lines, he's W. Bush, part II. no commitment to withdrawing troops. an actual intent to leave troops overseas for a very, very long time (100 years, is what i recall him saying, though he didn't mean it in a literal sense). i just don't see a strong effort to distance himself from Bush. now, whether that's just him being honest ("this is what i believe and i don't want to mislead you into thinking otherwise since it'd be the correct thing to do from a campaign standpoint") or not, i just think this country needs a much of an opposite of Bush as politically possible. the fact that Bush endorsed McCain is not a good sign. i really think if he gets elected it'd be more of the same.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

Nah, whenever people talk about revolution I just shake my head at the naivety. It has to happen through community movements and the democratic process. I think a lot of it has to do with access to and the presentation of good information. Large parts of the country are still not connected to internet media, and if your daily dose of news is ten minutes of world affairs and ten minutes nationally you're not in the discussion in a way that we're now all able to be.

I do put a lot of the responsibility on the shoulders of citizens who, when faced with the ability to be better informed and to take a larger stake in and responsibility for this country, choose instead to envelop themselves in entertainment and tune out. We're in many ways at a historic crossroads, and there's no question that in time we will see a significant shift as Americans come more and more online. But such change also requires those of us who have the ability to do better to actually do so. And to choose not to is a damning indictment of us as people, considering the myths about our country we do choose to believe.

Good take. I choose to believe in the overall goodness of people thus don't share the doom and gloom outlook of others.

Maybe the current candidates aren't the best but I think they are all intelligent people. At the very least smarter than the majority of naysayers calling for the end of america based on them being elected.

Does that outlook make you a sheep? Maybe but I know that the people I'm electing know more and are more qualified than I am.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

I do put a lot of the responsibility on the shoulders of citizens who, when faced with the ability to be better informed and to take a larger stake in and responsibility for this country, choose instead to envelop themselves in entertainment and tune out.

we tried in 2000, when we voted for Gore but Bush got elected. can you really blame anyone?

short of assassination, once you realize there's little you can do to be a catalyst for change it becomes very easy to become more interested in who Tila Tequila chooses as her mate than who to elect. this is not a republic. it'd be a different story if it was.

just enjoy reality TV, you'll be able to sleep easier at nite and you can blame the problems on those in power.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

...it sounds a little like Nero must have sounded, fiddling while Rome burned.

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I have zero belief that the country survives the reign of a neophyte like Obama, at least in any recognizable fashion.

It's crap from both sides like this that has me more concerned about the future of our country than the particulars of what either party is arguing for/against. It's great to believe deeply in a position, but that doesn't mean that out of such a deep conviction needs to come such extreme discourse. It serves no purpose that I can see, other than to make the other side dig in deeper and up the ante, at which point any thought of reasonable discussion of substantive issues is gone.

I don't know...I don't get it.

[Subby]

I don't think NoMyths' position is extreme in the least.

Bush should have to sing that kickass song to all of the widows his fucked up foreign policy has created. It's so funny it will probably cheer them right up!

[Ksyrup]

It's not his position, it's the way he discusses his position.

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

It's crap from both sides like this that has me more concerned about the future of our country than the particulars of what either party is arguing for/against. It's great to believe deeply in a position, but that doesn't mean that out of such a deep conviction needs to come such extreme discourse. It serves no purpose that I can see, other than to make the other side dig in deeper and up the ante, at which point any thought of reasonable discussion of substantive issues is gone.

I don't know...I don't get it.

It's interesting how you focus on my one inflamatory sentence in the thread and then ignore all of the other posts where I lay out in moderate terms the nature of the problem. Or the reasonable discussion of substantive issues that's going on which you've chosen to also apparently ignore and claim that we're just perpetuating the problem. In specific regards to this president, I've spent more than half a decade becoming less and less moderate in my discussion about him as he has continued to fail.

You have more than 20,000 posts here. That's plenty of time to "get it" if you choose to be engaged, rather than justifying tuning out.

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by Subby

Bush should have to sing that kickass song to all of the widows his fucked up foreign policy has created. It's so funny it will probably cheer them right up!

That was my thought as well -- images of the war dead who aren't laughing along.

[Ksyrup]

Because that's how you have chosen to initiate your discussion - and in fact, is the focal point for the existence of this thread. I chose to tune out the rest of what you've said (and JIMGA as well) because you chose to frame your comments in an admittedly inflammatory way.

I don't spend much time in political threads around here anymore, so just excuse this as a passers-by comment. Ironically, I've been deeply involved in political discussions on a far more liberal board, and don't see anywhere near the kind of crap that I've seen here over the years. But then again, I'm pretty much the only admitted conservative over there, so they don't have a JIMGA to egg them on, either. I think what struck me in this thread was the absence of that kind of stuff on the other board, where we've been discussing the primaries, and I felt like posting about it. IMO, it just doesn't make any sense to be so inflammatory, and I'm not sure I understand what the point is.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

It's crap from both sides like this that has me more concerned about the future of our country than the particulars of what either party is arguing for/against. It's great to believe deeply in a position, but that doesn't mean that out of such a deep conviction needs to come such extreme discourse.

I'm not sure what you really want, at least not that's realistic.

The left hates the right. The right hates the left.
And I use those words without the slightest bit of hyperbole intended.

And those who try to straddle the fence with regularity aren't particularly liked by either side (except on occasions when they can serve as "useful idiots").

The only things we really agree on at this point is that we'd prefer to be in a world without the other, or at least where the other was as irrelevant as we believe their positions/actions should make them (there's a certain appeal to watching the other side suffer the frustration & upset of being rendered powerless versus simply eliminating them entirely). It's a lot like the lawyer joke about "ten thousand at the bottom of the sea" being "a good start". Even the occasional cited "common goals" are considered best achieved by such dramatically different means/have such drastically different practical definitions as to render them largely unrecognizable to the other.

You can wish that weren't so, but that isn't going to change the reality. It's been a grand experiment but I believe there's a very legitimate question that is grossly overlooked about whether such a divided country can continue to exist indefinitely, or at least continue without ultimately reaching some sort of broad resolution. That's the elephant in the refrigerator.

edit to add:
I want to borrow something from NoMyths post up a few because it really highlights what I'm talking about. It's in post 21, where he says "as he has continued to fail". What I'm driving at here (in this post) is that what he considers failures are generally what I consider at least moderate successes and vice versa. And I'd be shocked if he were to disagree with that take. And I'd be further surprised if he really truly had a real problem with acknowledging the vast differences in the two points of view. We're more flabbergasted that the diametrical opposites exist than we are disturbed about acknowledging that they do. Your complaint on the other hand is starting to sound something like Rodney King wanting us all to get along.

[Ksyrup]

*shurg*

I don't hate anyone on the left, no matter how much I disagree with their policies. And experience has taught me that I don't think I'd want to live in a world where there wasn't some sort of balance - both in the government I live under and among philosophies - so I disagree whole-heartedly with the concept of ridding ourselves of the other side.

I also think that, in the grand scheme of things, our differences are vastly overstated. There are fundamental differences, to be sure, but that's only when viewed in the prism of US politics. Take a world view, and I think things are quite different. The survival of a Republican Presidency doesn't determine whether I survive, for instance. And I think that rehetoric and hyperbole to the contrary is harmful and serves no purpose.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

*shurg*

{looks back to comment about those on the fence, figures that covers it}

I also think that, in the grand scheme of things, our differences are vastly overstated.

{looks back again, and am now sure I've already covered this]

only when viewed in the prism of US politics.

Hmm ... maybe now I see part of the problem. You seem to be missing (or not acknowledging) that pretty much everything has a political component.

[Ksyrup]

No, I think I understand your point, and it probably explains that although I'm still deeply interested in the political process, I'm far less interested in being part of the political process anymore.

I only want us to "get along" to the extent of discussing our positions, not that I would want or expect people to capitulate deeply held beliefs in an effort to "come together" or something like that. It's one thing to disagree on Bush's policies - I'm not going to expect you or NoMyths to turn away from your beliefs - but it's another to express them in a manner that really makes it pointless to have brought them up to begin with. I guess that's my point.

And I also think it's a pretty sad commentary that not hating someone for their political beliefs is equated to "fence sitting" - at least, that's how I took your comments.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

And I also think it's a pretty sad commentary that not hating someone for their political beliefs is equated to "fence sitting" - at least, that's how I took your comments.

Shouldn't really surprise you at all. I still consider (paraphrasing) "with us or against us" as one of the (few remaining) shining moments of the current Presidency.

Without the slightest bit of hyperbole intended, I consider that one of the greatest moments any President has ever had in the history of the nation.

(And the trip from that moment until today is just depressing as all hell)

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

As opposed to what HA, the morally bankrupt & incapable of rational thought West & Northeast? Trust me HA, when it comes right down to it, we don't have any more use for you than you do for us.

nah, i really don't think the country has any use for the south and midwest.

and yes, because that person is a citizen she has the legal right to vote for who gets to run our country.

that is what's wrong with this country.

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

It's one thing to disagree on Bush's policies - I'm not going to expect you or NoMyths to turn away from your beliefs - but it's another to express them in a manner that really makes it pointless to have brought them up to begin with. I guess that's my point.

I've spent a number of years here being fairly moderate in terms of my comments whenever I post political-related news. I'm also probably the person around here who has been most accurate in his predictions for how things were going to go down, war-wise -- something for which I took a heck of a lot of flak. It's clear that even posting relatively moderate statements meet with the same apathy.

Yes, this thread began with my parallel between the tradition of Nero fiddling while Rome burned with President Bush joking about the controversies of his administration while the problems of Katrina are still ongoing, with soldiers and civilians still dying in Iraq, and with a country still in the grip on partisan politics that exacerbate the problems more than resolve them. Over the years I've posted many news items such as this with little commentary. But here the parallels between Bush's and Nero's disconnection from the problems in their republics are fairly prominent.

Our economy is in a recession that's getting more severe by the month, we're running out of oil with no significant plans on the horizon for moving away from it, our military is overextended, and our national debt has skyrocketed with the cost of the war totaling over half a trillion dollars, among the many other concerns of our nation. It shouldn't be hard to understand why I would point out the incongruity of the president's behavior with the serious nature of the problems confronting us -- and especially to have him make fun of them. Frankly, I'd be far more complimentary if the man spent his non-governing time in contemplation and prayer for the position in which he has helped put this country, rather than joking around.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And the trip from that moment until today is just depressing as all hell

W00t! Common ground!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

that is what's wrong with this country.

Hey, we agree on something, at least in principle. There are indeed far too many people voting who lack the fundamental ability to do so with any sense of reason.

Ahh, the beauty of agreement, Ksyrup is going to be so proud of us

edit: Hooahh, while I'm typing Subby adds to the harmony. It's like ... a revolution.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I have zero belief that the country survives the reign of a neophyte like Obama, at least in any recognizable fashion. Nero and/or Caligula were better equipped. I'd be even more concerned if I had any real belief he'll be alive long enough to serve even if elected.

With your well-documented hatred for dark-skinned people aside, this ranks as either one of the most colossally idiotic posts of all time, or you're one of the most colossal idiots of all time.

You don't believe the country will survive? In a recognizable fashion? What the fuck does that even mean? Recognizable in the sense that your government isn't going to by lily-white anymore? Recognizable in the sense that the executive branch will actually "support and defend" the constitution rather than trample on it? No more pointless wars?

And you really believe if Obama is elected, he's not going to survive his term? Is that based on something tangible, or just another twisted fantasy?

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Hey, we agree on something, at least in principle. There are indeed far too many people voting who lack the fundamental ability to do so with any sense of reason.

there's no guarantee you qualify as a voter

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

this ranks as either one of the most colossally idiotic posts of all time, or you're one of the most colossal idiots of all time.

It can't be both?

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

nah, i really don't think the country has any use for the south and midwest.

and yes, because that person is a citizen she has the legal right to vote for who gets to run our country.

that is what's wrong with this country.

Yeah - because this kind of shit only happens in the South and Midwest.

Give me a fucking break.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Y'know Todd, your tripe is getting sooooo tired. How about you find a bus to step in front of instead of constantly trying the same bullshit material? Or maybe it's time we find out exactly how a lawsuit for slander works & how much anonymous protection the internet really provides. Because I've grown really tired of your little fantasy & the personal attacks that go with it.

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

And you really believe if Obama is elected, he's not going to survive his term?

I'm not exactly the first person to suggest that there's a possibility that he'll be assassinated if elected (or gets close to it).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

there's no guarantee you qualify as a voter

Depends upon who's setting the qualifying criteria I imagine.

[Subby]

In before the subpoena.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Depends upon who's setting the qualifying criteria I imagine.

please don't sue me.


thank you.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

please don't sue me. thank you.

You should be safe, you aren't quite the one trick pony the other bullshit artist has become.

[Ben E Lou]

Closed. Retreat to your corners and take a deep breath.

[Ben E Lou]

Dola:

It sure would be nice if people around here could debate politics and not get personal.