WW LXIX - Battlestar WereWolf - GAME OVER CYLONS WIN!

[RendeR]

I was actually very concerned with allowing multiple conversions, i thought it might unbalance things, but early on in teh game it looked like the humans had it won fairly easily and the conversion ability actually saved the game for the cylons in the end.

They also made two excellent choices for conversion in nailing players that had HUGE trust value. Well played my mechanical friends.

[path12]

RendeR, thanks for running it. I enjoy your games, they're always crammed full of stuff.

The only thing I thought was unfair was the bit about me dying soon before lynch, and then still allowing another lynch candidate. We had pretty much planned the day around me being the lynch victim and figuring out what we were going to try and do that night to help cronin, since we knew he would be on the block the next day. Having that happen without the chance to do anything at night I think was a bit unfair against the Cylons, especially if the subsequent conversion had failed. Other than that one I thought it was a well thought-out game.

[RendeR]

I understand what you mean Path, but 'all the plans of mice and men...' or something like that.

The best laid plans can always fail to work out as intended =) thats why the story keeps unfolding =)

[PurdueBrad]

Wow, RendeR, good game.

Damn, now I know why you guys hate late conversions. I felt pretty good after the Cronin, Path day and then scanned Mauboy only to be converted that night rather than scan him as a cylon. Had I not been converted and left alone to live, it was going to be a pretty good run for the humans. Damn you Mauboy!

But you know what, that was a tough challenge becoming bad at the end. I really thought I was screwed when Mauboy bit it after I lied and said he was human.

NFG, nice job with the nuke, I was really, really worried about it (as Narcizo can tell you) and you used it beautifully.

Jackal, I'm sorry. You played that exactly the way I would have though. Nice game.

[PurdueBrad]

Maybe I am in the minority here but I like the elements of early days/big events during the day that RendeR brings to his game. Now, I admit that I did feel screwed in the last game with the Gods when the day ended early and I was 'punished' for not voting but looking back, it was still fun. This game, really fun, particularly at the time as a human because it gave us a monster day of dropping Path12 and then Cronin in just a couple hours time.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

I'm going to be curious once the game is over to see what the eliminated onlookers would've done in my shoes.

Here is the PM that I sent RendeR right beforte the final Nightfall vote.

just about positive it is not NFG

---

Seriously, why take out two of your teammates when they should be able to win just by executing night kills? Unless there is something I'm missing on the night kill rules based on skimming posts, there is no way I would vote for him.

I'm guessing, based on the suspect scan result, that PurdueBrad is the bad guy in the mix at this point. Although I'm far from clear on it ... I just know that I would not go for NFG even if it meant putting a 1-1-1 tie out there today, waiting for a kill tonight, and seeing how the tie-breaker rules play out with a vote tomorrow. I would be especially willing to do this in an items game where I had some chance of locating a device that could help me win a one-vs-one showdown tomorrow.

I'll be interested in reading the post-game for why some of the bad guys made the decisions they made and how the balance shook out with that many bad-guy types in the game. It seems like it clearly did, based on the ending we are seeing but wow it seems like there were a ton of Cylons.


Also, you know you are a good guy so you are only deciding between two guys. I think "What have you done lately" should have factored more into your thoughts, especially once the bad scan result came up.

That said, it is pretty rare for two conversions in a game ... I'm sure it was hard going against a guy you clearly trusted earlier in the game. But PB probably was banking on that as he made his kill decision the night before.

Fun ending, interesting read.

[PurdueBrad]

Talking about bad decisions, my worst was my quick decision to try and clear mauboy. It was a spontaneous move and I felt that if I cleared him, I could keep Jackal at bay, mauboy safe, and then worst case scenario sacrifice Narcizo as "scanned" which would then lead to a lynch of nfg as Narcizo had cleared him. NFG's nuke drastically changed things and I thought really left me fubar'ed. All I could do was play the loyalty card with Jackal and the fact that I took out Heinz and owned up to it.

As for why I immediatly owned up to killing JEHeinz, which was a night kill, is that with so many people seeing bits and pieces of what happened each night, I was worried about nfg or Jackal saying "Holy crap PB killed Heinz." Luckily the write-up showed him as a loyalist so I could play it out.

[hoopsguy]

Also, for what it is worth my track record at end game isn't all that good. I got worked by Alan/Pass in Path's "Animal Farm" game and I gave Cronin an item in Lathum's "Golf" game near the end that pretty much wrecked my team's chances at the win.

Games don't go down to the wire all that often, so it is fun to think about them when they do and you are reading along.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Also, for what it is worth my track record at end game isn't all that good. I got worked by Alan/Pass in Path's "Animal Farm" game and I gave Cronin an item in Lathum's "Golf" game near the end that pretty much wrecked my team's chances at the win.

Games don't go down to the wire all that often, so it is fun to think about them when they do and you are reading along.

That should say Alan/GE. I didn't join the bad guys until one day before endgame, and even though GE had died before, he laid most of the groundwork. I was pumped because it was only the second time I'd been a bad guy, but looking back, it was pretty cheesy, since I had been good most of that time.

[Sonic Youth]

My only thing about this game was not knowing where I docked at night. That would have changed how I said something things.

[hoopsguy]

Sonic, did you enjoy your first game?

[Sonic Youth]

At times, though other times it can be incredibly frustrating and obvious too after the fact, which I think is down to not knowing how certain situations play or can be. Other times I felt all over the place. I picked up a few things it has to be said, so I'll be a different player in my next game.

[Narcizo]

Great work PB. I screwed up big time with my paranoid fantasies and you saved the bacon. I thought you'd played it wrong at the end, going for nfg, but, once again, you proved me wrong.

Overall though I don't think the wolves (barring PB and mau) can be very happy with the result. I think the game was massively over-balanced in favour of the wolves (multiple random conversions really make the game impossible to balance) and only poor play by us and some bad luck (path's hit on PB, then a late lynch vote on cronin, while neither he nor I were around) really kept the game close.

I also think that a good game of Werewolf should be about the night kills and lynches and mostly the players. If you look at how the wolves were killed there wasn't one clean lynch in the lot (cronin's lynch coming straight after Path execution). And yet 5 wolves were killed. To be honest I don't really think anyone was really able to play well (apart from PB) because the game hogged the limelight. So while it was fun (or as fun as anything can be when I'm a wolf) to play at the time in retrospect I don't think it was satisfying. I can understand that it was better to read than play.

While I made horrendous decisions as a wolf (due to my usual problem of fixating on an imagined situation and then being unable to accept that I'm imagining it), I think I played well as a human as I was onto Path and cronin. I still don't understand why Path wasn't lynched on day three. I also set myself up nicely for an attack on night three but didn't realise that there was a conversion ability or that I couldn't block it (I was a bodyguard).

Heinz, I'm afraid PB killed you because I believed you were in a rival human faction with Jackal and Sonic. Don't even think about asking why, although I'm interested in hearing what the day three secret message was all about Render. The one that was about Sonic, Jackal and A N Other.

[nfg22]

Im a little mad. Jackal, I laid it out perfect that there is no reason I would kill two of my own when I had a 3/5 advantage bringing it to 1/3. Thus I was obviously a human. Yet Jackal Ill forgive you. PB....I knew you were the seer but I didnt know if you just counted for the wolves or if you were a wolf. I knew you were bad tho. I didnt even waver on that. Im dissapointed. See you guys next game.

[nfg22]

Originally Posted by nfg22

Ok. Why are you flipping? All of us are human, thats for sure. The question is which one of us counts as a cyclon? Which is less risky, killing a human who can talk to the Cyclons or killing two actual Cyclons?

I think PB is a human who counts for the Cyclons. You lied about Mau. You didnt expect me to be able to kill two of them in a deft shot, it happened and now you are caught in a lie. You say that your seer gift didnt work, but it did. You know he was Cyclon, but in essence, he is on your team.

Vote Purdue Brad.

I must say, good game PB. You played well until now.

I was off on the human thing but I had you pinned here.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by nfg22

Im a little mad. Jackal, I laid it out perfect that there is no reason I would kill two of my own when I had a 3/5 advantage bringing it to 1/3. Thus I was obviously a human. Yet Jackal Ill forgive you. PB....I knew you were the seer but I didnt know if you just counted for the wolves or if you were a wolf. I knew you were bad tho. I didnt even waver on that. Im dissapointed. See you guys next game.

While I agreed with your reasoning and would have voted with you as a villager, in Jackal's defence there was so much going on and so many things that didn't make sense it's not surprising that he decided to go with his gut. (this is what PB did so well, highlighting their bond during the game).

In fact you were also guilty of following your instincts when you decided to nuke Kobol. While it happened to be the right move in this game, a lot of the time that's the sort of instinct move that will hurt a village. Logically speaking you should be figuring that there are one, or at most two, wolves left. (otherwise you have a game with 50% bad roles)? You've no way of knowing who that PM came from, it could have been sent by a lone wolf who knows that there's going to be someone on Kobol. Starting from 4:1, you nuke a villager and that makes it 3:1, you get lynched for having nuked a villager 2:1 and with a successful night kill the wolf is suddenly 1:1. Like I said it was the right move to make as it turned out but logically speaking it was the wrong move. But you listened to your gut and it paid off.

But if you're going to play on gut instinct (and everyone does in the end) then you can't really complain when someone else does the same thing, even if it backfires.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

Heinz, I'm afraid PB killed you because I believed you were in a rival human faction with Jackal and Sonic.

Actually there's more mitigating factors than that. I believed nfg was bluffing about having a nuke (I mean, why would he come out and say something like that) and had some sort of protection so he was trying to direct an attack on himself. (Much the same as Pass and I were doing from the start). Meanwhile the kill order the night before had failed on Jackal. I suspected this was because he was on Colonial One as I got a bunch of messages about there being too many politicians around (although initially I thought it was to do with the faction I had dreamed up for Sonic, Jackal and heinz). But I wasn't sure (or he might have stayed in the same location) so it seemed too big a risk to take to hit him.

No-one actually believed you were telling the truth about you victory conditions though, I'm afraid, heinz. Sorry about that.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

. But PB probably was banking on that as he made his kill decision the night before.

Unfortunately not. PB wanted to take out nfg, but I argued him out of it. I suck!

PB I've deleted all my PMs but if you have yours saved you should post my first PM to you. It shows how completely and utterly wrong I was. I still maintain that it made sense though and things just kept cropping up that seemed to confirm it.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

Unfortunately not. PB wanted to take out nfg, but I argued him out of it. I suck!

PB I've deleted all my PMs but if you have yours saved you should post my first PM to you. It shows how completely and utterly wrong I was. I still maintain that it made sense though and things just kept cropping up that seemed to confirm it.

I've deleted all my PMs already as well but you did lay out a pretty good case for the third faction (I bought it). I finally doubted you when Sonic Youth showed up as simply human, no more no less. But still, it didn't hurt things at the end, although may have made things harder leading up to it.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

trying to direct an attack on himself. (Much the same as Pass and I were doing from the start).

That was a lot of fun, by the way. At the beginning of the game, Narcizo and I were able to PM each other. Any PMs we received were sent to both of us, so we knew that the other was good -- although I suspected conversion from the start, and the fact that Narcizo found a "recent" medical scan saying nfg was good, I knew conversions would definitely be involved somehow.

Also, we were both bodyguards. We couldn't guard the same person each day, but between the two of us, we could keep one person alive every day. We tried to hint at being the seer, hoping to draw the wolves to attack us, but also tried to do so in a manner that wouldn't make the real seer reveal against us. Anyway, the first night we protected ourselves, then Night 2 we protected each other -- that's when clap attacked Narcizo. I was already in line to be lynched based on my efforts saving Narcizo Day 2 (although maybe once Narcizo showed up, we would have been able to straighten that out), and I was really surprised people believed me right away when I fingered clap. But I guess it was the right call for clap to take me out during the day, since between Narc and I, we were protecting each other at night.

Fun game, RendeR!

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by nfg22

Im a little mad. Jackal, I laid it out perfect that there is no reason I would kill two of my own when I had a 3/5 advantage bringing it to 1/3. Thus I was obviously a human. Yet Jackal Ill forgive you. PB....I knew you were the seer but I didnt know if you just counted for the wolves or if you were a wolf. I knew you were bad tho. I didnt even waver on that. Im dissapointed. See you guys next game.

I understand why you'd be mad, but I laid it out perfectly for you why killing those two cylons would've been a great cylon move. I went with the crazy cylon play instead of the moderate cylon play (PB's last few days). I chose wrong, but I'll redeem myself eventually.

[The Jackal]

To expand on that:

I realize if you were a cylon, going from 3 out of 5 to 1 out of 3 is terrible in the sense of odds, but with us not knowing how the night killing worked, especially with a couple nights of no night kills, I didn't see it as a guarantee that 3 out of 5 would end up winning (especially with my Duke ability to switch a vote if 3 of you had done some vote switching at the deadline). I made a bad move, but in the end, it was not as easy a choice as you make it out to be. Looking from your point of view, sure, but look at mine. Plus, PB gave me an earth clue on the last day, too.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Plus, PB gave me an earth clue on the last day, too.

Yeah, I was waiting for that to come out. In all honesty, I wasn't 100% sure that it had happened since I didn't get any kind of verification but I didn't want to push too much so I thought this was more subtle, passing you the valuable earth clue.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Sonic Youth

At times, though other times it can be incredibly frustrating and obvious too after the fact, which I think is down to not knowing how certain situations play or can be. Other times I felt all over the place. I picked up a few things it has to be said, so I'll be a different player in my next game.

I missed this before. I'm a little sory your first game was one o mine SY, my games tend to have a lot of extra stuff going on and a lot of surprise twists.


Ain't that right path? *cackles*

[The Jackal]

The robot chicken episode with the cylons all falling over was just on, and it made me laugh. Screw you, cylons.

[mauchow]

Hey Heinz, did you notice our misspellings of Pegasus? Were they obvious enough to you?

[claphamsa]

it was obvious to everyone :P

[Passacaglia]

Speaking of spelling, were there billions of cyclons because of the typo, or was something else going on?

[mauchow]

Heinz sent us a secret message via Render PM stating that he is working for himself and the only way he wins is if he is the last human along with us.

He told us to misspell Pegasus if we were cylons, so he knew who we were. Only two of us decided to misspell it. Someone did as well during those few posts, I can't remember who, but yeah.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by mauboy1

Hey Heinz, did you notice our misspellings of Pegasus? Were they obvious enough to you?

Yours and Path's were, I saw Cronin put Peg and so I put him in a "maybe" category.

[Narcizo]

Sonic put Peg as well, which is why I thought he was working with you. PB did it at the end but that was over the weekend. And then he killed you.

I was thinking asking someone to deliberately mis-spell Pegasus is asking for trouble in a game with clap and Lathum involved.

[claphamsa]

grrrr

[claphamsa]

I think we were both dead already

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

Sonic put Peg as well, which is why I thought he was working with you. PB did it at the end but that was over the weekend. And then he killed you.

I was thinking asking someone to deliberately mis-spell Pegasus is asking for trouble in a game with clap and Lathum involved.

Haha, yeah, they were dead.

Who were the wolves at that point, were you one yet?

[Narcizo]

Nope, but they told me about it. I thought it was a bit risky to do so though as, you know, you might not have actually been on our side at all and we'd all be merrily telling a good guy who the baddies are.