Werewolf LXXII: Chess (Checkmate!)

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

Thank god I'm quitting this game. I'm such a total ídiot.

Don't quit, you should be complimented by the amount of time Heinz and I spent deliberating over what play you'd make. In the end we called your bluff and called it well, but if I recall he had a PM drafted at 2:58 to switch the kill to you and we nixed it.

At least you didn't blow yourself up on a friggin' cruise ship.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Heh, I made a comment in a PM to the wolves post-game suggesting that you (PB) are a tough guy to move from an opinion ... at least for me.

I actually appreciate that a lot, as I'm learning to play this game it's good to hear something like that. I try not to be stubborn and listen, but it can be a tough line. I sometimes find myself more willing to give some of the more dominant players (you and Barkeep come to mind) a pass when sometimes I need to stick to my guns. When it comes to the rest of the players, from 2'nd tier to your newest players, I'm a little less willing to move. I think it is because I ultimately get in my head, "Well, IF Hoops/Barkeep/etc. are on my team, I would hate to lose them just on my suspicion."

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

At least you didn't blow yourself up on a friggin' cruise ship.

BOOM! Still one of the funniest things I've seen on here, that and Path being turned to stone.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Don't quit, you should be complimented by the amount of time Heinz and I spent deliberating over what play you'd make. In the end we called your bluff and called it well, but if I recall he had a PM drafted at 2:58 to switch the kill to you and we nixed it.

At least you didn't blow yourself up on a friggin' cruise ship.

Yep, as we went over it one last time I typed up the PM and everything, JUST in case.

Really, as it turns out, we didn't make the call so much on the fact of what you said, but more that we had had had to kill mccollins. He was trusted and about to become all sorts of a bad-ass for the white team. We figured that if those pawns turned to queens, or worse-yet rooks with wolf protection ability, there was a 0% chance to win.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

I actually appreciate that a lot, as I'm learning to play this game it's good to hear something like that. I try not to be stubborn and listen, but it can be a tough line. I sometimes find myself more willing to give some of the more dominant players (you and Barkeep come to mind) a pass when sometimes I need to stick to my guns. When it comes to the rest of the players, from 2'nd tier to your newest players, I'm a little less willing to move. I think it is because I ultimately get in my head, "Well, IF Hoops/Barkeep/etc. are on my team, I would hate to lose them just on my suspicion."

It is a very tough line because WW is both a community game and a test of your convictions given that the person trying to persuade you may be your enemy.

In this particular instance I didn't really mean it as good or bad, but more in the sense that they had to make sure they felt good about your loyalty going in because otherwise I thought it would be an uphill battle to gain it.

For what it is worth, I think your approach to the game is very good when I'm not involved But it always seems that I'm having to work extra hard to convince you that I have your best interests at heart, whether I'm lying or telling the truth. That is probably a by-product of the fact that we have been on the opposite team quite a few times.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

That is probably a by-product of the fact that we have been on the opposite team quite a few times.

That is very true. We have not played together a ton, but a decent amount and I think we've been on the same team twice (and one of those times you ended up getting converted away from my side) so I do fight that bias each game.

[Lathum]

Just wanted to add to what hoops said, I didn't really follow the game after I died but the way the 4 pawns had 4 votes just didn't add up in my mind.

I get what Pass was doing but it seemed to me so unbalanced. Then I asked a question about the rules because I was trying to get a grasp on the game and I got jumped on and lynched for it. I thought it was a little bush league.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Heh, I made a comment in a PM to the wolves post-game suggesting that you (PB) are a tough guy to move from an opinion ... at least for me.

For what it is worth, I thought Heinz put out just an outstanding position/argument this morning on why he was a good guy. But tough to argue the approach that you and NTN took on how to best work the end-game.

Nice job by the villagers down the stretch, apart from that little RendeR mistake. Why does that always happen to him in games where I'm a wolf? Even when I'm dead, he still gets set up

I agree for the most part. But there was one point where heinz said something to Narc in the thread about how he'd listen to a case for PB -- I thought surely people would jump on heinz trying to make it villager/villager -- but of course, I had a different perspective than anyone else.

Some other favorite moments:

CR calling out The Jackal as a wolf, then getting lynched for it, and after he turns up villager, still no one looks at The Jackal, and his trust is so high he gets RendeR lynched.

claphamsa putting in a late vote for ntn, making him tied for the lead, essentially killing himself since ntn had the order in to kill clap if he won the vote. The same night, Lathum missed a vote because his wisdom teeth were giving him trouble -- if he had been able to vote, he would have saved himself (I guess there is a reason to vote, even with other people having extra votes )

KWhit thinking he was White. At this point, the Rooks and Knights knew their color based on the first kills, but the Pawns had to deduce it. PurdueBrad and mccollins knew they were White without a doubt, since both of them were able to see both friendly Rooks (should be clear from the Board 1 tabs), and since hoopsguy had died as a Black Rook, they must be White. KWhit assumed he was White based on the number of Pawns and pieces The Jackal mentioned being around him, but it just so happened that it matched what KWhit could see on the opposite side of the board, but with Anxiety being the Knight that was near him. I don't remember if the wolves thought KWhit was white also, and thought they were maintaining the balance, but that was the beginning of White taking over -- I think balance still might have been salvageable after that, but things got gradually worse and worse, with two Black pieces getting lynched the next night (Lathum and ntn duking to clap), then Anxiety getting lynched and Qwikshot getting night-killed -- another reason the Qwik kill was strange, I was assuming the wolves would try to maintain balance more here -- I think PurdueBrad or mccollins would have been a good choice that night.

[Chief Rum]

Two things I didn't get:

1. Why no one picked up on The Jackal being the wolf after the posts by Sonic Youth and myself, particularly after I was revealed as a villager. Things were messed up the day I was lynched, I get that, but, really, The Jackal should have been strung up the next day. The math I laid out was pretty irrefutable.

2. Why on Earth did the wolves not kill the pawns, oh, right away? As soon as they were revealed, for instance. Especially the white ones, once it balanced toward white. No way PB should have been around at the end of the game, and the wolves should have become de facto black members in "covert" protection of Neon, to make sure the game didn't end too early in a white victory.

Other than that, I enjoyed the game and continued to follow it after I died. I don't know that anyone on any side in this, though, is going to point to it as a moment of excellence in WW play.

Thanks for running it, Pass.

[The Jackal]

Well, for one, we were in the middle of a chess game. If we killed off all the pawns the kings could easily be sitting ducks, as could any of the four wolves.

[Passacaglia]

I think the Pawns in this game were an interesting psychological experiment of some sort. From the rules:

You are seen as the least important of your team, but you can be quite useful.

I think that pretty much held true. It wasn't until I saw the PMs of the wolves exhcanging their roles with each other that I realized that since two wolves were Knights, they knew the other two Knights, and could kill them easily. Luckily for me, they got a little cautious with that, and luckily for me, the village managed to scan a wolf with such little seer power. But at this point, I was thinking I screwed up the game -- that with the wolves knowing the seers and the bodyguard, they were going to run rampant.

But the Pawns changed that. The Black Pawns snagged a wolf Day 1, and the White Pawns really put pressure on Neon and really charged for the last row (one of the reasons I was rooting for White from the beginning was because they pushed all eight Pawns forward right away and got some other pieces forward Night 1, which I thought was really cool). It seemed like I was gradually hearing rumblings of how they were too powerful, and I think a lot of their power stemmed from the fact that people didn't realize how powerful they were right away -- no one seemed concerned too much with what they were up to, and it took the wolves a while to kill them (except KWhit).

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Good Lord, I haven't even gotten to the Day One lynch. Is it going to take me forever to comb the roller coaster posts from today's results?

Heh, these midday deadline games are killer.

I couldn't have made a less impression on the board yesterday, what wiuth my time constraints, so I was really blocked in trying to help out with analysis or getting a good view of the situation. I am going to have to cram in more analysis tonight before I disappear, maybe double or triple my post count.

BTW, this post the night before I was lynched (same night as my post about The Jackal) was a hidden message to Lathum and the two pawns (whom I later discovered were Sonic Youth and KWhit). Alas, it was apparently too hidden of a messgae.

The first paragraph is to the pawns. I used "comb" and "roller coaster" in that sentence to try top tip the pawns off to the fact I was aware they had gone to an alternating pawns forward-pawns at starting spot pattern. As the black queen, I was the only one with viewing power to see almost that entire pattern. It wouldn't have told them their color, but it would have told them I was their queen without Neon having to reveal.

I also tipped off Lathum with the third paragraph. We blocked each other (he was the bishop on the other side Neon) trying to pass through the square in front of Neon. Apparently we both went 8 with our timings. The "blocked" was the clue to him that I was the one he had "blocked" with, and the "cram double or triple my post count" message was intended to let him know I would go a tick (2) or two (three) faster than I did the first night, so we didn't get blocked again.

I think this hints may have been too vague.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Well, for one, we were in the middle of a chess game. If we killed off all the pawns the kings could easily be sitting ducks, as could any of the four wolves.

Sorry, if the sides were even I buy this, but they weren't. White was dominant on the board and could have made a move to try to mate Neon. And they controlled the vote with their pawns after SY and KWhit bought it. At that point, you should have thrown the pawns to the wind to even the game back up some.

[jeheinz72]

I think the night killing of the pawns was something we would've "liked" to do, but always found better reasoning. From what I recall, here were our thoughts. It was like we were fighting on 2 fronts. On one hand, we had to keep the game as balanced as possible, but on the other, we couldn't let people deduce who the wolves were too easily and we had to leave ourselves "outs" for the end game, since no matter what, for us to win this was a game that was going to get down to a 4-5 person left scenario and 2 of them are Kings. We had to keep people around to try and pin it on, and they were PB and Narc.

BK, Night 1: Get a Seer outta the game

KWhit, Night 2: Trusted and pawns

Path12, Night 3: White Queen in an attempt to balance the game. I think this was the lynch where we probably should've lynched Collins instead. Just a case of thinking too much like regular chess and not enough like WW-Chess

Qwik, Night 4: Trusted black Seer. I'll maintain for infinity that this was the right call to make given our situation at the moment we made the call. Granted, like I said, we likely goofed the previous night, but at this moment, we had to off Qwik. We couldn't let him clear PB, since you have to remember

Collins - Impossible to make a case against given his vote for hoops Day 1 and no posts to latch on to
Cronin - Cleared
Narc - Wolf-protection bodyguard, using it almost always on himself
PB - Made some very wolfy posts, candidate for last lynch
RendeR - Potential fall guy since Jackal could "scan" him as a wolf. Needed one to distract the voting and get me farther along
Olie - Black team and harmless, power-wise
NTN/Neon - Kings
Sonic - Black team and harmless, power-wise.
Me and Jackal - The Wolves

Given that was who was alive, it was Qwik, Cronin, PB or RendeR. If we kill Cronin, Qwik just clears PB that night and we get no net gain. If we kill PB or RendeR, we whittle down who we can go after as the 3rd and 4th wolves.

I'd make that call on Qwik again, and it did what it was intended to do, which was get us farther in the game and give us a shot at the end, which we had and were all of 1 vote short.

Realistically, given the way Day One went down, we were in a big big hole. It went from 16:4 to 15:3, a 2nd wolf was getting a lot of heat still (Jackal) and people were posting how my vote looked terrible, which it did.

But I think this was the right call. Our larger mistakes were underestimating the pawns early and killing Path on night 3 instead of collins there.

[st.cronin]

Heinz: It would have been easy enough to cast suspicion on Qwik at a later time though. Night-killing him wasn't your only move.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Heinz: It would have been easy enough to cast suspicion on Qwik at a later time though. Night-killing him wasn't your only move.

How though?

I mean he had cleared you, which would be proven true when you died, and you knew he wasn't lying.

Ditto PB, had he cleared him

He handed the group Anxiety, plus for Qwik to be bad it meant 3 black wolves, which I don't think a lot of people were buying as a plausible situation. I think if the final 5 were Me, Neon, NTN, Narc and Qwik there is zero chance Qwik is going to look bad, and there's a chance that A) Qwik scans me and I show wolf or B) Qwik scans Narc and shows villager.

I mean who knows, maybe I/we were wrong, but I think our larger mistake was killing path instead of collins, not Qwik instead of whomever was left.

[st.cronin]

Think about Qwik's interaction with Anxiety. I was about halfway convinced that Qwik was bad before he was killed.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Think about Qwik's interaction with Anxiety. I was about halfway convinced that Qwik was bad before he was killed.

Even if we had cast some doubt on him, once he was killed he'd be revealed as a villager and all of his scans would be trusted. And he was about to scan the entire white team.

[jeheinz72]

That's more my point.

The blame him later game, when he keeps scanning and scanning would've been a lot riskier.

[st.cronin]

You're right about the difficulties not killing him would have left you with - I just think that killing Qwik made it impossible for you to win. Any other option would have been better.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

You're right about the difficulties not killing him would have left you with - I just think that killing Qwik made it impossible for you to win. Any other option would have been better.

If Neon voted for PB, we would've won.

[st.cronin]

Yeah, it was pretty unbelievable how close you made it. I don't understand why white was so reluctant to follow my plan.

[The Jackal]

Narc, rather, not PB.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Yeah, it was pretty unbelievable how close you made it. I don't understand why white was so reluctant to follow my plan.

Hey, I was with you! Although I would've liked to see us work harder to organize a tie with the Jackal vote to take both him and Oliegirl (I think it was) at the same time. I know it's hard but I still think attempting ties would've really forced the wolves to be a bit more 'out' in their voting patterns.

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

You're right about the difficulties not killing him would have left you with - I just think that killing Qwik made it impossible for you to win. Any other option would have been better.

I had suspicion about Jackyl...but I figured that the black cause was for naught.

The funny thing is that I almost didn't scan Anxiety. I was actually going to go up the side of the board but at the last moment I changed my mind...I had already known where Anxiety was going to be and said to myself, it is now or never...

So I was pleasantly surprised to see him come up wolf. Knowing that hoops was one, and Anxiety was the other, allowed me to write off any more blacks as wolves.

I was hoping with all the confusion that I could at least get into the thick of the white's board.

The chatter that Anx and I would've had would now be tainted as I wouldn't be sure what he would be telling me would be truth or fed.

I was paranoid that if I was scanning a suspected wolf and telling Anx of my actions that I would be killed before revealing him.

So I figured that perhaps by bringing forth revelation about Anx that I at least was eliminating a threat and hopefully smoke out another wolf in the process.

I didn't believe I could bargain with him if I had chatted with him; and I didn't believe I would have been able to coordinate any battleplans without fearing he'd leave me out to dry.

Still not my best effort...

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Qwikshot

I had suspicion about Jackyl...but I figured that the black cause was for naught.

The funny thing is that I almost didn't scan Anxiety. I was actually going to go up the side of the board but at the last moment I changed my mind...I had already known where Anxiety was going to be and said to myself, it is now or never...

So I was pleasantly surprised to see him come up wolf. Knowing that hoops was one, and Anxiety was the other, allowed me to write off any more blacks as wolves.

I was hoping with all the confusion that I could at least get into the thick of the white's board.

The chatter that Anx and I would've had would now be tainted as I wouldn't be sure what he would be telling me would be truth or fed.

I was paranoid that if I was scanning a suspected wolf and telling Anx of my actions that I would be killed before revealing him.

So I figured that perhaps by bringing forth revelation about Anx that I at least was eliminating a threat and hopefully smoke out another wolf in the process.

I didn't believe I could bargain with him if I had chatted with him; and I didn't believe I would have been able to coordinate any battleplans without fearing he'd leave me out to dry.

Still not my best effort...

We could have had a bargain, and we could have coordinated well for Black. Ah well. Sometimes, wolves aren't always as bad as they eem, especially in three way games.

[Abe Sargent]

I thin I'm just a naturally trusting and honest person, and people take advantage of me when I am a wolf. In the Survivor game, i trusted Alan T when he said he would help and support me if a wolf revealed and told the complete truth, and I took him up on it, only to be betrayed by him. In the game where I was Lucifer and st.cronin was Gabriel, I chose not to go after him in the thread at all until he came after me first. Here, I would have been happy to work with Qwik when both of us were behind the eight ball, but instead of even giving me a chance, he gave me up for short term gain that hurt his team too much. Especially since I handed Black the White Queen. I guess I'm just too nice as a wolf.

[Narcizo]

OK I've had time to get a bit of perspective which, obviously, was what I was missing during the game. (if I'd been paired with a villager things might have gone a bit better, although knowing myself I doubt it). I still maintain I played a terrible game and the reason is that I get obsessive. I'm a much better villager in the first two-three days before the blinkers fall down. But once they do I'm a huge liability in the game, as not only can I find evidence to prove anyone guilty, but it only takes me 5 minutes of coming up with the theory before it becomes the ONLY POSSIBLE TRUTH! I'm then willing to do anything based on that theory.

Anyway, the game has pretty much shown that I can't manage to play while I have part-time paternity leave. I also need to find out if I can switch off the obsession button. If not then I can't/won't carry on playing because it isn't worth it - it's not really enjoyable for me and it doesn't benefit anyone else.

I thought the game was fun (well, apart from the obvious "me-spazzing-out" bit. There were actually circumstances where it could be beneficial to the village for people to think you're a wolf, for example (although I forgot to tell Neon which Rook I was) - I love freaky stuff like that. The chess moving bit made the whole thing a bit more interesting and the PM partner thing was a neat idea.

However once black got behind they were doomed. Maybe there should have been no side reveal on death and bishops and king and queen shouldn't know their side either. That would have made it easier for one side to recover. The other thing, as others have pointed out is the extreme power of the pawn owners.

Thanks for running the game Pass. It was very interesting. Just not the best for my own obsessive character.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by jeheinz72

I was shocked it worked out. I figured that even if he thought I was a wolf he wouldn't actually give me a chance to do it.

I figured that that night was vital. If the wolves (I wasn't 100% you were a wolf at the time - that's the problem with coming up with all this ker-razy theories, when one is actually true then you don't know whether to believe it) killed me then they could take out mccollins the night after. I had been protecting mccollins the previous two nights but in the end thought it was more important to keep myself alive with the chance of a block later. If I'd been around long enough before deadline to have read through the thread then I would almost certainly have switched back to mccollins again. (because of your comment to mccollins about me being responbsible for protecting him - I, temporarily at least, knew you were setting me up there). Didn't have enough time to digest that and change my order though.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Even if we had cast some doubt on him, once he was killed he'd be revealed as a villager and all of his scans would be trusted.

Not by me.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

Well this is all very interesting. Let's see. We know Qwik is a villager so.... Everyone seems agreed that there are two white wolves left. Who's available? Render, Jackal, st.cronin, Heinz, PurdueBrad, McCollins and myself.

Phew! That's PB and, most importantly, me in the clear. Anxiety isn't going to target a wolf to save a villager.

There's cronin out of the picture as well.

So who do we have left? Render, Jackal, Heinz and McCollins. We know Jackal or Render is a wolf so that leaves Heinz and McCollins as the wolves left. Day one voting points very, very strongly in favour of Heinz being the wolf. Would McCollins really leave 4 votes on a fellow wolf with the possibility that one of the other people with a vote on the wolf is a pawn? I find it very, very hard to believe. Meanwhile Heinz had what has to be classified as a high-suspect late vote switch to KWhit. (of course, so did I as I pointed out at the time).

So there we have our wolves. Heinz and Jackal/Render.

D'oh! :o

[Narcizo]

Dammit! Heinz moved to H6 on the last day? I presumed he was at A or B6. That was going to be the proof I needed. The only way he could have moved to h6 was if he was a wolf, as he must have done it phase one, otherwise he would have caught Neon. That's why he was worried when I brought up the move theory. Should have just come out and said that heinz at G6 or H6 means he almost certainly a wolf, but I was hoping he would damn himself. Luckily PB and NTN got there in their own way.

One thing though Pass. Shouldn't they both have bounced, as they were both moving through one square that was the same?

Anyway thanks to PB for saving me from myself the second time in three games.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

I thin I'm just a naturally trusting and honest person, and people take advantage of me when I am a wolf. In the Survivor game, i trusted Alan T when he said he would help and support me if a wolf revealed and told the complete truth, and I took him up on it, only to be betrayed by him. In the game where I was Lucifer and st.cronin was Gabriel, I chose not to go after him in the thread at all until he came after me first. Here, I would have been happy to work with Qwik when both of us were behind the eight ball, but instead of even giving me a chance, he gave me up for short term gain that hurt his team too much. Especially since I handed Black the White Queen. I guess I'm just too nice as a wolf.

I didn't get the whole outing thing at all either. Either he's working with you guys in which case he should keep quiet about it. Or he isn't, in which case he should come out with the info immediately. I didn't get your reference to ccing him either. Had you done that then you would have told him who all the wolves are. Then why would he need to scan anyone. From a personal point of view this stage is pretty much were I started to completely lose the plot.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

One thing though Pass. Shouldn't they both have bounced, as they were both moving through one square that was the same?

I'm not sure who you're talking about here, and where.