BART Shooting

Noop · 01-08-2009, 05:03 PM

Protests over BART shooting turn violent

How is this kind of stuff still going on in the world? There is also a video on the internet that you can find if you look, because I am not sure if Skydog will be cool with me posting it.

For those who don't want to click the link, I will try to summarize it. A police officer shoots an unarmed black man who is being restrained by police in the back killing him in the process. The man is in a defenseless position and from the video does not pose an imminent danger to the lives of the officers around.

DanGarion · 01-08-2009, 05:14 PM

I'm sorry but protests like this don't solve anything. The people are idiots. It sucks that someone got killed, but protesting like morons solves nothing.

Karlifornia · 01-08-2009, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion

I'm sorry but protests like this don't solve anything. The people are idiots. It sucks that someone got killed, but protesting like morons solves nothing.

LOL. And what does..writing to our congressperson? HA!

DanGarion · 01-08-2009, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

LOL. And what does..writing to our congressperson? HA!

No that doesn't do much either. But these people aren't getting much sympathy from me for their actions after the incident.

Looking at some of the shooting footage, it appears the officer didn't intend to shoot the guy...

Ronnie Dobbs2 · 01-08-2009, 05:30 PM

Nia Sykes is a sharp cookie.

Groundhog · 01-08-2009, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

LOL. And what does..writing to our congressperson? HA!

Smashing innocent people's cars and stores isn't going to make people sympathetic to your cause.

TCY Junkie · 01-08-2009, 05:32 PM

That woman is so thoughtful. Saying the owner should be thankful she is alive. I'm sure if it was reversed she would feel the same way. Some people are just so thoughtful.

Karlifornia · 01-08-2009, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Smashing innocent people's cars and stores isn't going to make people sympathetic to your cause.

Understood, but you have to try to understand that the people around there have been watching a non-stop loop of video showing a fellow citizen get clipped, and the person who did it is still walking free. What more do you need than video evidence? How many murder/manslaughter cases have video evidence? The kid was unarmed. I don't care if it was an accident. I couldn't "accidentally" shoot somebody in the back at point blank range (killing them), and expect to be sitting home the next night eating ho-hos and watching Two and Half Men.

Tekneek · 01-08-2009, 05:39 PM

So, when the enforcement arm of the government goes renegade, you're supposed to respond in a civil manner? Not buying it. Too many times, police officers go relatively unpunished for these kinds of crimes. They rarely face the same charges and sentences that the average person would, had they committed the same acts. Faced with a history of the justice system going light (if even addressing them at all) on these kinds of issues, I have a very hard time suggesting those upset about it take the high road.

DanGarion · 01-08-2009, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

Understood, but you have to try to understand that the people around there have been watching a non-stop loop of video showing a fellow citizen get clipped, and the person who did it is still walking free. What more do you need than video evidence? How many murder/manslaughter cases have video evidence? The kid was unarmed. I don't care if it was an accident. I couldn't "accidentally" shoot somebody in the back at point blank range (killing them), and expect to be sitting home the next night eating ho-hos and watching Two and Half Men.

Maybe they should be rioting at the TV stations then or how about protesting IN FRONT of the police station. There is no reason to destroy other people's property, PERIOD.

st.cronin · 01-08-2009, 05:47 PM

Per that news source, there actually is an investigation proceeding. A wise mob would wait for an actual acquittal before rioting.

DanGarion · 01-08-2009, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tekneek

So, when the enforcement arm of the government goes renegade, you're supposed to respond in a civil manner? Not buying it. Too many times, police officers go relatively unpunished for these kinds of crimes. They rarely face the same charges and sentences that the average person would, had they committed the same acts. Faced with a history of the justice system going light (if even addressing them at all) on these kinds of issues, I have a very hard time suggesting those upset about it take the high road.

The officer fully deserves to be treated as a criminal. But this is also a special matter, that probably serves that the officer is held in solitary because of the circumstances around it. Why don't we see what they actually do before we start torching the city?

1 person fucks up and that constitutes violence? Come on, I'm not buying it, and I bet you the majority isn't either.

Tekneek · 01-08-2009, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Maybe they should be rioting at the TV stations then or how about protesting IN FRONT of the police station. There is no reason to destroy other people's property, PERIOD.

I agree. This is just an example of what happens when you get a large group together. Chances are that the crowd getting out of hand ends up having less to do with why they were there and more to do with crowd/mob dynamics.

Ronnie Dobbs2 · 01-08-2009, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tekneek

So, when the enforcement arm of the government goes renegade, you're supposed to respond in a civil manner? Not buying it. Too many times, police officers go relatively unpunished for these kinds of crimes. They rarely face the same charges and sentences that the average person would, had they committed the same acts. Faced with a history of the justice system going light (if even addressing them at all) on these kinds of issues, I have a very hard time suggesting those upset about it take the high road.

Are you seriously suggesting that the mob's destruction of people's private property, including people who may well agree with them, is justified due to this?

Tekneek · 01-08-2009, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion

The officer fully deserves to be treated as a criminal. But this is also a special matter, that probably serves that the officer is held in solitary because of the circumstances around it. Why don't we see what they actually do before we start torching the city?

Sounds alright to me.

Quote:

1 person fucks up and that constitutes violence? Come on, I'm not buying it, and I bet you the majority isn't either.

It doesn't really matter what the majority thinks or feels. Civil rights matters should not be up for a vote or subject to popularity concerns. I'm not saying what they are doing is right. I'm just saying that the majority of people, who probably never have to deal with these kinds of incidents, are not really in a position to have a meaningful opinion on the matter. When people are having an emotional response to a criminal act done in the name of the government, there is a good chance that those untouched by the matter will be unable to relate.

Tekneek · 01-08-2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Are you seriously suggesting that the mob's destruction of people's private property, including people who may well agree with them, is justified due to this?

No.

Noop · 01-08-2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Looking at some of the shooting footage, it appears the officer didn't intend to shoot the guy...

Are you serious? He murdered that man in cold blood for no apparent reason, there was no reason for him to draw his weapon.

DeToxRox · 01-08-2009, 05:55 PM

Bet no one protests BORT

Noop · 01-08-2009, 05:55 PM

A white cop shoots a black person in cold blood with the video being shown over and over? I wish they did the same with Sean Bell in NY and rioted when that happened.

There is a long history of this kind of stuff and unfortunately in order to be heard people resort to rioting because that seems to be the only language people respond too.

JonInMiddleGA · 01-08-2009, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop

that seems to be the only language people respond too.

Not sure that the response is the one they're looking for though.

DanGarion · 01-08-2009, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Sounds alright to me.

It doesn't really matter what the majority thinks or feels. Civil rights matters should not be up for a vote or subject to popularity concerns. I'm not saying what they are doing is right. I'm just saying that the majority of people, who probably never have to deal with these kinds of incidents, are not really in a position to have a meaningful opinion on the matter. When people are having an emotional response to a criminal act done in the name of the government, there is a good chance that those untouched by the matter will be unable to relate.

But even many those that are having an "emotional response" shouldn't really. It's automatically a race issue, because the cop is white and the victim is black. That's another problem I have here with the reaction... It bugs me a lot.

Rizon · 01-08-2009, 06:33 PM

Burning Oakland to the ground wouldn't be a bad thing. Please start with the Coliseum.

Bad-example · 01-08-2009, 06:35 PM

The evil cop clearly thought he could get away with eliminating one of "them". He just failed to take the video camera and multiple witnesses into account. He certainly deserves capital punishment.

DanGarion · 01-08-2009, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop

Are you serious? He murdered that man in cold blood for no apparent reason, there was no reason for him to draw his weapon.

Are you a police officer? Have you studied their guidelines on use of weapons? Have you interviewed the officer? Have you spoke with those involved?

I personally don't know why he drew his weapon, for all I know he may have thought it was his taser or something else, I don't know, I wasn't there. But from the footage and his reaction this wasn't his intended result. It just really looks like there was no intention on shooting and killing the guy, unless he was just completely unstable and did it.

Tekneek · 01-08-2009, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion

But even many those that are having an "emotional response" shouldn't really. It's automatically a race issue, because the cop is white and the victim is black. That's another problem I have here with the reaction... It bugs me a lot.

Hmmm. Given the history of this nation, you expect people to see it differently? If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

DanGarion · 01-08-2009, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Hmmm. Given the history of this nation, you expect people to see it differently? If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

Sorry but I just can't get behind the white person kills black person automatically a race thing, because it's not. I know I've shared this opinion before on here and I still stand by it. Now do I feel that it could be a race thing, yes I do. But I think it's just as bad to automatically pull the race card without knowing anything as it is to be racist. Reverse racism is bad. Hating people just because you assume they might hate you is bad, period.

Noop · 01-08-2009, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Are you a police officer? Have you studied their guidelines on use of weapons? Have you interviewed the officer? Have you spoke with those involved?

I personally don't know why he drew his weapon, for all I know he may have thought it was his taser or something else, I don't know, I wasn't there. But from the footage and his reaction this wasn't his intended result. It just really looks like there was no intention on shooting and killing the guy, unless he was just completely unstable and did it.

He thought it was his taser? LOL. Most tasers come with a bright color just to avoid those mishaps but try again. The guy who was on the floor was in no position to threaten anyone physically unless he started biting.

From my point of view it looked like he wanted to shoot the guy. Then again point of views are subjective.

Tigercat · 01-08-2009, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion

I personally don't know why he drew his weapon, for all I know he may have thought it was his taser or something else, I don't know, I wasn't there. But from the footage and his reaction this wasn't his intended result. It just really looks like there was no intention on shooting and killing the guy, unless he was just completely unstable and did it.

I agree. I don't see how anyone can look at that tape, the sitatuion, and the reactions of the officers and not think there are only two possibilities:

1) The officer went batshit insane for a moment (or already is batshit insane) and pulled the trigger.

2) The officer accidentally pulled the trigger

Tekneek · 01-08-2009, 06:45 PM

I'm certainly wondering whether this incident would've been reported without the video evidence. I wonder how many police officers have been brought to justice in similar incidences without video evidence. Additionally, I wonder how many have had to face justice without the involvement of the news media. Can we reliably depend on other officers to report their buddies for going over the line? I don't honestly know, so I do ask the question. Did the other officers report this man to IA? Why did they attempt to confiscate cellphones from witnesses (as has been reported)? Why did they initially lie about security video of the incident (as has been reported)? How did 5 days pass (if not more) before the officer was even interrogated about the incident by IA or the DA (as has been reported)?

sabotai · 01-08-2009, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion

I personally don't know why he drew his weapon, for all I know he may have thought it was his taser or something else, I don't know, I wasn't there.

And this wouldn't be the first time a cop accidentally killed someone when they grabbed their gun when they meant to grab their taser.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion

But from the footage and his reaction this wasn't his intended result. It just really looks like there was no intention on shooting and killing the guy, unless he was just completely unstable and did it.

When I first saw the video, that was my response as well. Looks like an accidental shooting to me.

Tekneek · 01-08-2009, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Hating people just because you assume they might hate you is bad, period.

Not talking about simple hate, DanGarion. We're talking about a white cop shooting an unarmed black man in the hands of two other officers. It is what it is. You can't erase the history of our nation simply because you would like to. I agree with you. I wish it were truly reasonable to expect as much, but it isn't really.

Tigercat · 01-08-2009, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop

From my point of view it looked like he wanted to shoot the guy. Then again point of views are subjective.

What is his line of thinking then? What possible kind of rational thought process do you think he could have engaged in? Because he had the gun out for more than a couple of seconds, it isn't like he drew and instantaneously shot.

Unless by "wanted to shoot the guy" you mean he suddenly snapped while already holding the gun, I don't see how you can come to that conclusion.

Buccaneer · 01-08-2009, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Are you a police officer? Have you studied their guidelines on use of weapons? Have you interviewed the officer? Have you spoke with those involved?

Dude, just look at the color of the skins.

Tekneek · 01-08-2009, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabotai

When I first saw the video, that was my response as well. Looks like an accidental shooting to me.

It may have been. Leaves me wondering why they tried to collect cellphones from witnesses, initially denied there was security camera footage of the incident, and the guy resigned... Is that what normally happens after accidental shootings? I don't know, but it doesn't seem like a group that has their shit together.

Tigercat · 01-08-2009, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tekneek

It may have been. Leaves me wondering why they tried to collect cellphones from witnesses, initially denied there was security camera footage of the incident, and the guy resigned... Is that what normally happens after accidental shootings? I don't know, but it doesn't seem like a group that has their shit together.

Just because they may have tried to cover it up doesn't mean it wasn't an accident.

Why anyone with a working brain wouldn't have pulled the trigger:
1) There was no reason from a threat level
2) If you were a bad cop that's pissed, it makes more sense to just hit him
3) There were tons of bystanders

Add in the fact that after the shooting the cops look at each other with mutual WTF expressions, including the shooter, and it is really hard to believe it was deliberate.

samifan24 · 01-08-2009, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion

I personally don't know why he drew his weapon, for all I know he may have thought it was his taser or something else, I don't know, I wasn't there. But from the footage and his reaction this wasn't his intended result.

I thought the same thing. The cop clearly looks shocked as he stands back up over the body. I read somewhere that the cop drew his taser earlier during the situation and then put it away. I'm betting he grabbed his gun, thought it was his taser and in the heat of the moment, shot the guy. I'm not justifying it, I'm just saying that's what I think happened.

Tekneek · 01-08-2009, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigercat

Just because they may have tried to cover it up doesn't mean it wasn't an accident.

Of course. However, it certainly taints perception quickly. If the shoe were on the other foot, and Grant was trying to cover up his accidental shooting of a white officer, you can bet they would use that as evidence of malicious intent.

Bad-example · 01-08-2009, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigercat

Just because they may have tried to cover it up doesn't mean it wasn't an accident.

Most likely it was more about spin control than an actual cover up attempt.

molson · 01-08-2009, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Hmmm. Given the history of this nation, you expect people to see it differently? If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

Isn't it a bit of a stretch to go from "history of our nation", to "this cop decides to kill someone just because he's black"?

Cops fuck up sometimes, just like everyone else. Sometimes it costs someone's life (more often, it costs them their own life). Same with doctors. Doctors fuck up and kill people all the time. Nobody freaks out about that because it's not as dramatic.

Criminal charges for accidental police shootings should be RARE, I have no idea if this should fall into that based on the video. But how often are doctors charged criminally for gross negligence on the job? Never - the victim claims a hefty settlement though, which is what should happen here.

But c'mon, this isn't "the enforcement arm of the government gone renegade", it's one police officer. I'm pretty sure this wasn't ordered from the top.

Noop · 01-08-2009, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigercat

Unless by "wanted to shoot the guy" you mean he suddenly snapped while already holding the gun, I don't see how you can come to that conclusion.

This.... either way this guy better go to jail at minimum but I am hoping he gets put to death.

Bad-example · 01-08-2009, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop

This.... either way this guy better go to jail at minimum but I am hoping he gets put to death.

LOL

Tekneek · 01-08-2009, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson

Isn't it a bit of a stretch to go from "history of our nation", to "this cop decides to kill someone just because he's black"?

Not entirely.

Quote:

Cops fuck up sometimes, just like everyone else. Sometimes it costs someone's life (more often, it costs them their own life).

With great authority should come great responsibility.

Quote:

Criminal charges for accidental police shootings should be RARE, I have no idea if this should fall into that based on the video.

It would depend on the circumstances certainly, but I wouldn't let as many off the hook for it. When you are granted the authority to take somebody's life, you should be expected to take tremendous responsibility. I hold police officers, and others in similar roles, to a higher standard than the average person because of the authority they are given.

Quote:

But c'mon, this isn't "the enforcement arm of the government gone renegade", it's one police officer. I'm pretty sure this wasn't ordered from the top.

Doesn't matter. You are expected to comply with the orders of officers at any given time. You are taught to respect their authority. Then they shoot somebody who did not pose an imminent threat to anybody's life... It becomes difficult to respect that authority and those it represents.

Tekneek · 01-08-2009, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop

This.... either way this guy better go to jail at minimum but I am hoping he gets put to death.

molson · 01-08-2009, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tekneek

With great authority should come great responsibility.

Yes, that's why you have to go through lots of training/background checks to be a police officer.

But it's absolutely impossible to guarantee, 100%, that no officer ever kills someone by accident, just like you can't guarantee that even highly-regarded doctors won't kill someone. We're all human.

Maybe some involuntary manslaughter charge is appropriate, depending on the facts, but if you think this is about race/authority/ect, you have more hate in you than you're even accusing this guy of having.

But hey, if thugs in Oakland want to destroy their own city over some shitty cop's mistake, that's their choice I guess.

Noop · 01-08-2009, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Clue me in I am lost.

molson · 01-08-2009, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Not entirely.

So you really think he shot this guy intentionally, solely because of the victim's race?

Tekneek · 01-08-2009, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson

But it's absolutely impossible to guarantee, 100%, that no officer ever kills someone by accident, just like you can't guarantee that even highly-regarded doctors won't kill someone. We're all human.

Sure we are. Being human does not mean we should not have to face punishment for our mistakes, especially when they result in someone else losing their life.

Quote:

Maybe some involuntary manslaughter charge is appropriate, depending on the facts, but if you think this is about race/authority/ect, you have more hate in you than you're even accusing this guy of having.

I didn't say it was about race/authority/etc. A white cop killed a black man. That covers the race and authority parts of the discussion. Those facts are not up for debate, are they?

Noop · 01-08-2009, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson

So you really think he shot this guy intentionally, solely because of the victim's race?

Wouldn't be the first time in the history of our country.....just saying.

jeff061 · 01-08-2009, 07:16 PM

Some theories are he meant to reach for his Taser.

Now he'd have to be quite a "special" individual to mistake that, but I have a really hard time buying he purposely shot him like that.

In anycase, at the very least he should be brought up on manslaughter, if not murder.

Tekneek · 01-08-2009, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson

So you really think he shot this guy intentionally, solely because of the victim's race?

I don't know. As far as I have read, this former officer has not spoken about his motivations. I can only judge from what has been reported thus far, and accidental shooting is merely a theory. The fact that a white cop killed a black man is not in dispute. It remains a possible theory that he was killed due to his race, until determined otherwise.

01-08-2009, 05:14 PM	#2
DanGarion Coordinator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: PNW	I'm sorry but protests like this don't solve anything. The people are idiots. It sucks that someone got killed, but protesting like morons solves nothing. __________________ Los Angeles Dodgers Check out the FOFC Groups on Facebook! and Reddit! DON'T REPORT ME BRO!

01-08-2009, 05:30 PM	#5
Ronnie Dobbs2 Pro Rookie Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Bahston Mass	Nia Sykes is a sharp cookie. __________________ There's no I in Teamocil, at least not where you'd think

01-08-2009, 05:32 PM	#7
TCY Junkie College Prospect Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: TX	That woman is so thoughtful. Saying the owner should be thankful she is alive. I'm sure if it was reversed she would feel the same way. Some people are just so thoughtful. __________________ I try to open things I probably have no chance of opening. Last edited by TCY Junkie : 01-08-2009 at 05:32 PM.

01-08-2009, 05:39 PM	#9
Tekneek Pro Rookie Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: USA	So, when the enforcement arm of the government goes renegade, you're supposed to respond in a civil manner? Not buying it. Too many times, police officers go relatively unpunished for these kinds of crimes. They rarely face the same charges and sentences that the average person would, had they committed the same acts. Faced with a history of the justice system going light (if even addressing them at all) on these kinds of issues, I have a very hard time suggesting those upset about it take the high road. Last edited by Tekneek : 01-08-2009 at 05:44 PM.

01-08-2009, 05:47 PM	#11
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	Per that news source, there actually is an investigation proceeding. A wise mob would wait for an actual acquittal before rioting. __________________ co-commish: bb-bbcf.net knives out

01-08-2009, 05:55 PM	#18
DeToxRox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Michigan	Bet no one protests BORT

01-08-2009, 05:55 PM	#19
Noop Bonafide Seminole Fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Florida	A white cop shoots a black person in cold blood with the video being shown over and over? I wish they did the same with Sean Bell in NY and rioted when that happened. There is a long history of this kind of stuff and unfortunately in order to be heard people resort to rioting because that seems to be the only language people respond too. __________________ Living in an Oligarchy.

01-08-2009, 06:35 PM	#23
Bad-example College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: san jose CA	The evil cop clearly thought he could get away with eliminating one of "them". He just failed to take the video camera and multiple witnesses into account. He certainly deserves capital punishment.

01-08-2009, 06:45 PM	#29
Tekneek Pro Rookie Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: USA	I'm certainly wondering whether this incident would've been reported without the video evidence. I wonder how many police officers have been brought to justice in similar incidences without video evidence. Additionally, I wonder how many have had to face justice without the involvement of the news media. Can we reliably depend on other officers to report their buddies for going over the line? I don't honestly know, so I do ask the question. Did the other officers report this man to IA? Why did they attempt to confiscate cellphones from witnesses (as has been reported)? Why did they initially lie about security video of the incident (as has been reported)? How did 5 days pass (if not more) before the officer was even interrogated about the incident by IA or the DA (as has been reported)?

01-08-2009, 07:16 PM	#49
jeff061 Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: MA	Some theories are he meant to reach for his Taser. Now he'd have to be quite a "special" individual to mistake that, but I have a really hard time buying he purposely shot him like that. In anycase, at the very least he should be brought up on manslaughter, if not murder. __________________ Last edited by jeff061 : 01-08-2009 at 07:16 PM.

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