WW XCIV Group Therapy - Game Over!

[dubb93]

7 - PurdueBrad - Latham (790), hoopsguy (822), Telle (1020), Abe (1045), The Jackal (1050), Lerriuqs (1137), Chief Rum (1166)

Really? You guys saw logic in what Lathum was saying. I know I voted with him early, but when it became obvious he was batshit crazy I moved my vote away. Why did you guys stay on PB?

[Telle]

Originally Posted by dubb93

7 - PurdueBrad - Latham (790), hoopsguy (822), Telle (1020), Abe (1045), The Jackal (1050), Lerriuqs (1137), Chief Rum (1166)

Really? You guys saw logic in what Lathum was saying. I know I voted with him early, but when it became obvious he was batshit crazy I moved my vote away. Why did you guys stay on PB?

Because the simplest answer was that either Lathum was right for voting for PB because he thought he was a wolf or Lathum was the wolf. And easiest way to figure that out is by lynching one of them.

[Abe Sargent]

YAYAYAYAYAYYAY

[Autumn]

Can we get the voting history from Day 1 reposted up here? I keep going back to look for it and getting lost. I forget who posted it.

[claphamsa]

oh my!

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

OK, I've been working wth this stupid vote thing from yesterday on and off all afternoon and I think I've got it right now. Not sure how much it is going to factor into decisions today, but if so then here it is:

205 - Poli votes Lathum (1-0)
210 - Lathum votes Poli (1-1)
240 - Poli unvotes Lathum (1-0)
242 - Lathum unvotes Poli (0-0)
244 - Dubb votes Saldana (1-0)
251 - EF votes PB (1-1)
252 - Poli votes Abe (1-1-1) Saldana/PB/Abe
253 - Lerriuqs votes Pass (1-1-1-1) Saldana/PB/Abe/Pass
272 - PB votes Hoops (1-1-1-1-1) Saldana/PB/Abe/Pass/Hoops
273 - PB unvotes Hoops (1-1-1-1) Saldana/PB/Abe/Pass
284 - Pass votes Lerriuqs (1-1-1-1-1) Saldana/PB/Abe/Pass/Lerriuqs
304 - Saldana votes Dubb (1-1-1-1-1-1) Saldana/PB/Abe/Pass/Lerriuqs/Dubb
323 - EF unvotes PB, votes Hoops (1-1-1-1-1-1) Saldana/Abe/Pass/Lerriuqs/Dubb/Hoops
326 - Lathum votes Abe (2-1-1-1-1-1) Abe over Saldana/Pass/Lerriuqs/Dubb/Hoops
328 - Hoops votes EF (2-1-1-1-1-1-1) Abe over Saldana/Pass/Lerriuqs/Dubb/Hoops/EF
329 - Jackal votes PB (2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1) Abe over Saldana/Pass/Lerriuqs/Dubb/Hoops/EF/PB
333 - PF votes Lerriuqs (2-2-1-1-1-1-1-1) Abe/Lerriuqs over Saldana/Pass/Dubb/Hoops/EF/PB
335 - Clap votes PF (2-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1) Abe/Lerriuqs over Saldana/Pass/Dubb/Hoops/EF/PB/PF
341 - Pass unvotes Lerriuqs, votes Hoops (2-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1) Abe/Hoops over Saldana/Pass/Dubb/EF/PB/Lerriuqs/PF
343 - PB votes EF (2-2-2-1-1-1-1-1-1) Abe/Hoops/EF over Saldana/Pass/Dubb/PB/Lerriuqs/PF
347 - Pass unvotes Hoops (2-2-1-1-1-1-1-1) Abe/EF over Saldana/Pass/Dubb/PB/Lerriuqs/PF/Hoops
357 - PF unvotes Lerriuqs (2-2-1-1-1-1-1) Abe/EF over Saldana/Pass/Dubb/PB/PF/Hoops
370 - Pass votes for NTN (2-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1) Abe/EF over Saldana/Pass/Dubb/PB/Hoops/PF/NTN
372 - EF unvotes Hoops, votes PB (2-2-2-1-1-1-1-1) Abe/EF/PB over Saldana/Pass/Dubb/PF/NTN
374 - PF votes NTN (2-2-2-2-1-1-1-1) Abe/EF/PB/NTN over Saldana/Pass/Dubb/PF
381 - PF unvotes PB, votes Lathum (2-2-2-1-1-1-1-1-1) Abe/EF/NTN over Saldana/Pass/Dubb/PF/PB/Lathum
396 - Lathum unvotes Abe, votes EF (3-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1) EF over NTN over Saldana/Pass/Dubb/PF/PB/Lathum/Abe
416 - Dubb unvotes Saldana, votes EF (4-2-1-1-1-1-1-1) EF over NTN over Pass/Dubb/PF/PB/Lathum/Abe
420 - BK votes NTN (4-3-1-1-1-1-1-1) EF over NTN over Pass/Dubb/PF/PB/Lathum/Abe
425 - Abe votes NTN (4-4-1-1-1-1-1-1) EF/NTN over Pass/Dubb/PF/PB/Lathum/Abe
443 - Pass unvotes NTN, votes No Lynch (4-3-1-1-1-1-1-1) EF over NTN over Pass/Dubb/PF/PB/Lathum/Abe
452 - EF unvotes Lathum, votes PB (4-3-2-1-1-1-1) EF over NTN over PB over Pass/Dubb/PF/Abe
455 - Autumn votes PB (4-3-3-1-1-1-1) EF over NTN/PB over Pass/Dubb/PF/Abe
457 - Telle votes Abe (4-3-3-2-1-1-1) EF over NTN/PB over Abe over Pass/Dubb/PF
530 - NTN votes PF (4-3-3-2-2-1-1) EF over NTN/PB over Abe/PF over Pass/Dubb
532 - Pass votes NTN (4-4-3-2-2-1-1) EF/NTN over PB over Abe/PF over Pass/Dubb
536 - PB unvotes EF, votes NTN (5-3-3-2-2-1-1) NTN over PB/EF over Abe/PF over Pass/Dubb
577 - Telle unvotes Abe, votes PB (5-4-3-2-1-1-1) NTN over PB over EF over PF over Pass/Dubb/Abe
581 - PB unvotes NTN, votes Telle (4-4-3-2-1-1-1-1) PB/NTN over EF over PF over Pass/Dubb/Abe/Telle
595 - MartinD votes PB (5-4-3-2-1-1-1-1) PB over NTN over EF over over PF over Pass/Dubb/Abe/Telle
603 - NTN unvotes PF, votes PB (6-4-3-1-1-1-1-1) PB over NTN over EF over Pass/Dubb/Abe/Telle/PF
604 - Autumn unvotes PB, votes Telle (5-4-3-2-1-1-1-1) PB over NTN over EF over Telle over Pass/Dubb/Abe/PF
605 - Chief votes EF (5-4-4-2-1-1-1-1) PB over NTN/EF over Telle over Pass/Dubb/Abe/PF
668 - Poli unvotes Abe, votes Telle (5-4-4-3-1-1-1) PB over NTN/EF over Telle over Pass/Dubb/PF
669 - PB unvotes Telle, votes NTN (5-5-4-2-1-1-1) PB/NTN over EF over Telle over Pass/Dubb/PF
679 - PB unvotes NTN, votes Telle (5-4-4-3-1-1-1) PB over EF/NTN over Telle over Pass/Dubb/PF
699 - Alan votes NTN (5-5-4-3-1-1-1) PB/NTN over EF over Telle over Pass/Dubb/PF
701 - NTN unvotes PB, votes Telle (5-4-4-4-1-1-1) NTN over EF/PB/Telle over Pass/Dubb/PF
707 - NTN unvotes Telle, votes EF (5-5-4-3-1-1-1) NTN/EF over PB over Telle over Pass/Dubb/PF
711 - PB unvotes Telle, votes NTN (6-5-4-2-1-1-1) NTN over EF over PB over Telle over Pass/Dubb/PF
713 - EF unvotes PB, votes NTN (7-5-3-2-1-1-1) NTN over EF over PB over Telle over Pass/Dubb/PF

Found it, thanks a ton hoopsguy, this is better than my notes.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by Danny

I'll count EF's vote, though NTN was the leading vote getter anyway.

1 - Passacaglia - Lerriuqs (253)
1 - dubb - saldana (304)
5 - EagleFan - hoopsguy (328), Lathum (396), dubb (416), Chief Rum (605), NTNDeacon (707)
3 - PurdueBrad - The Jackel (329), Telle (575), Martin D (595)
1 - PackerFanatic - claphasma (335)
7- ntndeacon - PackerFanatic (374), Barkeep (420), Abe (425), Pass (532), Alan T (699), PurdueBrad (711), EagneFan (713)
2 - Telle - Autumn (604), Poli (668)

A lot to look at here I think

[PurdueBrad]

Telle and Jackal were on me back-to-back days.

Hoopsguy early on EF, Lathum followed
Wouldn't be surprised to see Hoops put a first vote on another wolf

Autumn and Poli (him in particular) seemed to listen to me both days.

[PurdueBrad]

And yes, everything above assumes that I'm good, I know.

[Autumn]

A couple highlights. Lathum and Dubb put Eaglefan in danger early in Day 1 voting, putting him ahead in the vote. Chief put him back in the mix towards the end of the voting. Purdue and Eaglefan himself got him out of danger at the end and pushed NTN over the top. Pass and PB put NTN ahead of EF in the middle of the voting.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Purdue and Eaglefan himself got him out of danger at the end and pushed NTN over the top.

I was thinking about this. Did the wolves, like I sort of said earlier, push to get ntn out because they thought it would be easier to generate a run on me once they criticized EF?

[PurdueBrad]

Damn, hit enter too soon. And then was Lathum's craziness a bonus then OR did they orchestrate that as well?

[Autumn]

Also of note, we can assume we have (had) at least five Needies in the game, since EagleFan's role was not one of the listed roles.

[claphamsa]

didnt guess that one.....

[claphamsa]

but yay anyways

[EagleFan]

Good game all. Go Needies!!!

For the record. The bad day was not a play, I actually had about the worst day at work today and it began as described.

[Autumn]

Glad we could make it worse ;-) Well, you know what i mean.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Lathum is beyond confusing. At this point he has voted, said his role points to PB being a wolf

Originally Posted by dubb93

So you are saying you know PB is bad due to your role? You aren't going on a gut feeling?

Originally Posted by Lathum

no, I'm not saying that

Dubb, you are seriously annoying me.

You got pissed off and accused Hoops of putting words in your mouth, explain to me how this doesn't make you a hypocrite?

I never once said my role points to PB being a wolf and actually speceficaly went out of my way to say it didn't.

[PurdueBrad]

Lathum, are you able to discuss much of what did happen or not so much?

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Glad we could make it worse ;-) Well, you know what i mean.

Didn't make it worse. 'Tis just a game and I actually enjoyed trying to think of what to say to help get me out of it.

[The Jackal]

PB - I don't know if I'll be voting for you again, but if you had been lynched today and turned up bad and I wasn't on you that was going to look bad for me, so it was an educated vote in that regard. I tend to think you're probably good, fwiw.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

Lathum, are you able to discuss much of what did happen or not so much?

I can try.

I have an ability that had a certain trigger that needed to be met. Now I'm not saying voting for you was that trigger and to be honest I wanted to go a different way today but Danny wouldn't let me. Things got a little crazier then I expected but the outcome was obviously not only a great one for the village but for me as well.

[PurdueBrad]

Thanks, much appreciated Lathum.

[Poli]

I definitely like Lathum more now. If he has a role that's not listed, then I'm assuming he's on our side. As Autumn pointed out, we have (had) at least 5 wolves among us. I seriously doubt we had 6.

[Lathum]

dola- If people want to question me I will do my best to answer them.

I'm not sure who I will vote for tomorrow, Dubb's play obviously is obviously irksom to me but his voting record doesn't point to him a s a wolf.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Danny

Today, PurdueBrad and EagleFan are singled out as no longer needing therapy! Perhaps even crazies surrounded by other crazies seem normal. After much deliberation, it is decided that EagleFan will be the one to go. As he begins to leave EagleFan tries to grab a knife and take someone with him, but alas he is stopped by the therapist and escorted away. As he is carried away, he drops a notebook with a lot of information scribbled on it. EagleFan is the Evil Information Collector!

The Evil Information Collector- You are a needie! Each night you will have a talk with the therapist who will randomly reveal an unlisted role without realizing it. You will not learn who has that role. Because you are evil, you also plan on using this info for your own selfish purposes. After learning a role, you may use your deception to try and trick one player into revealing their role to you by talking to that player at night to see if they are a role that you are looking for.

Now you all know for sure there are those that are out to get you, but was EF alone? Are they still here and how many are there?

Night deadline is at 1am eastern

Wow, don't I look like a dumbass?

Way to go, guys. I'll again argue the logic was correct--I just didn't think the wolves would make such a balls out move like that. I should have given them more credit.

Have to look at the PB and Telle votes now, I would guess.

[PurdueBrad]

I wonder if we hadn't hit Lathum's trigger if he would've been punished in some way or killed as well, by the statement, "but for me as well" at the end of that post.

[Autumn]

Interesting.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I can try.

I have an ability that had a certain trigger that needed to be met. Now I'm not saying voting for you was that trigger and to be honest I wanted to go a different way today but Danny wouldn't let me. Things got a little crazier then I expected but the outcome was obviously not only a great one for the village but for me as well.

I worded that poorly.

When I say go a different way I meant in regards to my role, not my vote. My vote was 100% my choice.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I can try.

I have an ability that had a certain trigger that needed to be met. Now I'm not saying voting for you was that trigger and to be honest I wanted to go a different way today but Danny wouldn't let me. Things got a little crazier then I expected but the outcome was obviously not only a great one for the village but for me as well.

Were you not able to say this much earlier? Because this information would have been REALLY helpful.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

AWESOME!!!

Nice read by those of us that put the pieces together early (Autumn, myself, and who was the 3rd?)

Now what did we say we thought that meant about Lathum/PB?

This post bothers me. Not sure why.

Anyhow, I have a feeling that I'm on the very short list for night kill targets tonight. So the only reason I'll give my strategy during a night phase is due to that.

The main reason I pushed an EF lynch today was because of Telle's behavior in regards to EF and in regards to PB. I don't really have the energy right now to go back over all of my points today on why this was the only conclusion that made sense to me when all things were considered (plus I am late to run my BBCF sim as well).

I think there were several people who were overly vocal about not voting PB today who were likely just very overly wrong about their reasoning. So I'm not necessarily thinking everyone who voted for PB is bad here.

If I am alive tomorrow, barring seer reveal somewhere else, Telle is likely my target. After that it gets a little fuzzier for me.. I can buy what people are saying about Hoopsguy, and I think he should be considered a valuable target to scan soon perhaps, but I'm not sold on him being bad just yet because I always feel that way about him it seems.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Wow, don't I look like a dumbass?

Way to go, guys. I'll again argue the logic was correct--I just didn't think the wolves would make such a balls out move like that. I should have given them more credit.

Have to look at the PB and Telle votes now, I would guess.

I think you gave them too much credit, Chief. They didn't expect us to catch them at it but we did.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

See CR, I told you it was a reasonable wolf play.

Yes, you did. Doesn't mean it was reasonable, though. That was a dumb play by the wolves.

Still, I'm not going to quibble about us getting a wolf.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

I wonder if we hadn't hit Lathum's trigger if he would've been punished in some way or killed as well, by the statement, "but for me as well" at the end of that post.

it would have been bad for me.

Was a high risk-high reward play

[Poli]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Yes, you did. Doesn't mean it was reasonable, though. That was a dumb play by the wolves.

Still, I'm not going to quibble about us getting a wolf.

Quibble. Did I use that word earlier in my q posting? I hope so!

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Yes, you did. Doesn't mean it was reasonable, though. That was a dumb play by the wolves.

Still, I'm not going to quibble about us getting a wolf.

I don't know that it was dumb. I just think the timing of it was off because of the arrest mechanism in Abe's game - there was a lot of discussion (both between us wolves) and the village in that game about whether or not the wolves would target their own person. I think it was fresh in everyone's head.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I think you gave them too much credit, Chief. They didn't expect us to catch them at it but we did.

Well, I would argue it was a second level approach. I would say actually the wolves maybe just flat underestimated the village. I went third level, lol, and screwed up. But glad others saw through that and got the job done.

The great news is this not only provides us with tons of info in Day Two, but also on Day One. We have two close votes involving a wolf to digest.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Poli

Quibble. Did I use that word earlier in my q posting? I hope so!

Your influence is undeniable.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

I don't know that it was dumb. I just think the timing of it was off because of the arrest mechanism in Abe's game - there was a lot of discussion (both between us wolves) and the village in that game about whether or not the wolves would target their own person. I think it was fresh in everyone's head.

Hmm, I could see that. I should have paid more attention in Abe's game, but I got really confused in that one.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Telle

Were you not able to say this much earlier? Because this information would have been REALLY helpful.

I think it actually would have caused more problems. Things were pretty crazy already and I didn't want more confusion. Once it became evident I would be succesfull there was no need to say anything, especiallly since I liked where the lynch was headed.

I think PB may be a wolf based on how the vote went down today and yesterday.

[Poli]

I seriously doubt we're lucky enough to hit wolf/wolf.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by dubb93

7 - PurdueBrad - Latham (790), hoopsguy (822), Telle (1020), Abe (1045), The Jackal (1050), Lerriuqs (1137), Chief Rum (1166)

Really? You guys saw logic in what Lathum was saying. I know I voted with him early, but when it became obvious he was batshit crazy I moved my vote away. Why did you guys stay on PB?

As I said at the time when a 3rd candidate was brought up, I didn't see a compelling reason to switch. I didn't know just what to make of the Lathum thing. PB got Day One votes, too. No one else really stood out a ton further than PB. Plus, I (wrongly) thought EF was innocent, and was concerned that if I moved from PB, it would seal EF's lynch by default.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

but don't you think looking at your reasoning then that maybe PB isn't a wolf? Why would the wolves be so obvious as to lynch one of the 3, make the other one unable to vote, and thus essentially point us right back at the 3rd? It's like...too easy.

If anything I might argue that EF is the wolf and that by silencing him the wolves are hoping to point the finger at PB. Not that I think this is necessarily true, but maybe it's as true as the idea that PB could be a wolf.

It just seems too "first level thinking" easy that PB is the wolf then. And knowing our crafty wolves they're probably at least on "2nd level" and misdirecting things.

This is where not being able to discuss roles makes things very difficult, because we have no way of group-analyzing Lathum's experience that he can't share with us.

In a way I think it might be an early indication of a limitation of this game that I don't like - because you're essentially forcing everyone to play as islands and stifling group-think and discussion.

this post elevates DT in my mind. He was the first one to float out the reasons why EF may be a wolf

[Poli]

Hoops moves up as well. Wasn't he the first one pinging EF yesterday?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Poli

I seriously doubt we're lucky enough to hit wolf/wolf.

look at PB's day 1 voting record, it's not that great.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Poli

Hoops moves up as well. Wasn't he the first one pinging EF yesterday?

He voted first on him yesterday, but IMO that doesn't really clear him.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I think PB may be a wolf based on how the vote went down today and yesterday.

If I have to go through this a third day in a row, I'm not going to bother fighting it.

[Autumn]

I'm going to continue to exam the possibility that PB is a Needie though. Some of his votes don't look great, and no reason to let one through our hands just because of statistics. Still, I'm going to wait for night deadline before I do too much vote thinking.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Lathum

this post elevates DT in my mind. He was the first one to float out the reasons why EF may be a wolf

I have the opposite view of this. Actually completely opposite. DT's posts are bothering me. He was more than happy to be the first person to jump on PB after you did last night and he only started talking about EF after myself and Autumn did. His vote was still on PB during that time. Then after the lynch today, DT made the post which I quoted earlier where he appeared to me to be taking credit for something that felt to me he was trying to slide into.

I'm not more convinced that DT is bad than Telle, she is still my target tomorrow, but I definitely am not extending my trust of today's EF's vote much further than Autumn right now until I have more time to review.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

If I have to go through this a third day in a row, I'm not going to bother fighting it.

The only thing that'd make me think you are a wolf at this point is the fact that the wolves criticized one of their own since I know you like that plan. So Im looking elsewhere first.