WW XCV: Land of the Role Reveals GAME OVER - Page 37

EagleFan · 06-01-2009, 11:31 PM

I guess that wasn't a dola after all.

Chief Rum · 06-01-2009, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dubb93

As I said above not sure I agree at all. Lets go back to day 2 and assume you end up seer. How does the game play out from there?

And that move/vote had absolutely nothing to do with game balance at all. That was just about the play I made on day 1 and the fact that the village ran with it.

The assumption of trust given to you meant everything in this game.

dubb93 · 06-01-2009, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny

the BG and duke would not be in the game.

I think the fact that the BG was not in the game had absolutely zero effect on our night kills atleast. We had no doubt it was in the game and planned our kills accordingly.

hoopsguy · 06-01-2009, 11:32 PM

I really do think that getting the seer on D1, where there is statistically less chance of it ending up with a wolf, is the optimal play. I just wanted to hoard it for myself to keep the village from being able to play optimally.

Danny · 06-01-2009, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Good game wolves.

It was rather entertaining watching from the sidelines, especially that one night when dubb thought the game may be lost. Between the late hoops vote and Danny's post that he was going to NK dubb... At the same time I get the PM from dubb saying that I get one from Danny saying basically "I hope the wolves won't attack dubb now that I said that". I could only shake my head.

Yeah, wish I had given more thought the situation before I went to bed, today I convinced myself Dubb was bad, but it came a little too late.

Danny · 06-01-2009, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I really do think that getting the seer on D1, where there is statistically less chance of it ending up with a wolf, is the optimal play. I just wanted to hoard it for myself to keep the village from being able to play optimally.

Well, I knew we had no BG, considering that, it make more sense to have a BG then two seers with no BG.

Danny · 06-01-2009, 11:33 PM

I did not know whether or not the wolves knew about their being no BG.

hoopsguy · 06-01-2009, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer

Yeah, looking back, we probably should have.

I actually had a unvote Lathum
vote Dubb

copied so all i had to do was paste it . However, by the time I saw Hoops and Telle had switched, it was 10 pm.

So did I after Friday night - but I still held on for about 15-20 seconds before posting it, running the risk of another 9:00 PM post. I just did not want to leave much/any time for the last vote in behind mine. But if I had butchered the deadline snipe twice in one game I think I would have my balls busted on this forum for it from now until they throw away the FOFC-WW key

Chief Rum · 06-01-2009, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny

You were right about that, but I did help get PB the BG instead of Hoops the believed seer, that worked out well, but not with it ending up going to Dubb. We had to try and trust someone. I made the wrong call initially trusting Dubb, but I like I said, I really did not believe both the BG and duke would not be in the game.

Actually, you never questioned there would be a BG in the game, you only said you couldn't believe there wasn't a duke in the game. I laid out the exact scenario that was probable (with all the believe roles possible, there would not be much actual villager roles, but the wolves would have all their roles, and per the rules they would know what we don't have--which was close to true).

At that point, it was absolutely clear we needed to know dubb's allegiance. Instead PB scanned you, you didn't kill dubb, and I was NK'd before I coulda gone Holy Hell on saldana taking out, of all people, ntndeacon.

dubb93 · 06-01-2009, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny

I did not know whether or not the wolves knew about their being no BG.

We had no clue at all, see above.

The only role we knew that was not in the game was the duke. And it just so happened that it played out where it looked like I was the duke after I claimed it on day 1.

Danny · 06-01-2009, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dubb93

I think the fact that the BG was not in the game had absolutely zero effect on our night kills atleast. We had no doubt it was in the game and planned our kills accordingly.

What I meant was I knew the BG was not in the game from the start. Because of this, I figured the duke had to be in the game. I didn't think that BK would start the game without either one.

dubb93 · 06-01-2009, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I was NK'd before I coulda gone Holy Hell on saldana taking out, of all people, ntndeacon.

QFT

Danny · 06-01-2009, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

The assumption of trust given to you meant everything in this game.

I think some were calling for his scan, if that had happened, he would have been even more clear. I made effort to test his theory out in the actual vote, but it didn't work out because of the mixup.

hoopsguy · 06-01-2009, 11:39 PM

I don't blame Saldana one bit for being cautious with the Deacon

dubb93 · 06-01-2009, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I don't blame Saldana one bit for being cautious with the Deacon

Chief Rum · 06-01-2009, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny

Well, I knew we had no BG, considering that, it make more sense to have a BG then two seers with no BG.

How did you know we had no BG?

FTR, as much as we all screwed the pooch on this one, I was very much impressed with your guesses at the end, Danny. Too bad you couldn't get more people to follow you. Only chance you would have had was if every villager left in the game voted dubb today, then you nightkilled saldana.

Even then, it might have been hard to pin Lathum done, as dubb's scan result play would make Lathum look really good. Really, there were aspects of this game that the wolves were simply fantastic at. The dubb "revealing" Lathum was a brilliant move, as was convincing the village to accept dubb's "dukeness" to the point where they made him the seer based on that.

Racer · 06-01-2009, 11:40 PM

Man, we really did get our asses kicked. Has the village been shut out before?

Danny · 06-01-2009, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

How did you know we had no BG?

I was originally the BG, but BK decided to take it out for game balance reasons and make me the maniac instead.

Chief Rum · 06-01-2009, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny

What I meant was I knew the BG was not in the game from the start. Because of this, I figured the duke had to be in the game. I didn't think that BK would start the game without either one.

Oh, you mean because of the Maniac/BG screwup?

Chief Rum · 06-01-2009, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny

I was originally the BG, but BK decided to take it out for game balance reasons and make me the maniac instead.

Yeah, thanks, figured out what you were talking about.

Danny · 06-01-2009, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Oh, you mean because of the Maniac/BG screwup?

Yeah, I got both PM's and then BK told me I was the BG, but then changed to saying I was the maniac for balance reasons.

Chief Rum · 06-01-2009, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny

I think some were calling for his scan, if that had happened, he would have been even more clear. I made effort to test his theory out in the actual vote, but it didn't work out because of the mixup.

The problem there, and it's one we all should have seen, would have become obvious following forward from my Day Three proposal that the wolves would have all or most of their roles. Which would include the cunning. If you were going to try to establish a wolf deep in the COT, who would you have do it? The cunning, of course. And what position would that wolf try to gain? The one role--the believed seer--that could find him, of course.

Really, at that point, we should have just killed dubb. Enough questions had certainly been asked about him to that point, because we would have known no other way to verify him. And if we had been wrong, what would we lose? We can "believe" another seer, and it was just the duke.

Oh well...

Chief Rum · 06-01-2009, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny

Yeah, I got both PM's and then BK told me I was the BG, but then changed to saying I was the maniac for balance reasons.

He should have left you the BG.

hoopsguy · 06-01-2009, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer

Man, we really did get our asses kicked. Has the village been shut out before?

Not many, but a couple of times.

1. Star Wars game that Saldana ran, back around game #20?
2. The draft game that Cronin ran where AE and I picked teams (he got villagers and got shut out) - I'm pretty sure that ended as a shutout, might have gotten spoiled on the last day.
3. I think there was an earlier game (with vampires?) run by Neon Chaos where the wolves threw a shutout.

But that is all I can think of prior to this one.

Lathum · 06-01-2009, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer

Man, we really did get our asses kicked. Has the village been shut out before?

It has but not to often.

I am also amazed that Sal didn't take more heat about killing NTN and that people didn't jump on me about not giving it to him, that is the kind of thing I am usually all over.

dubb93 · 06-01-2009, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Not many, but a couple of times.

1. Star Wars game that Saldana ran, back around game #20?
2. The draft game that Cronin ran where AE and I picked teams (he got villagers and got shut out) - I'm pretty sure that ended as a shutout, might have gotten spoiled on the last day.
3. I think there was an earlier game (with vampires?) run by Neon Chaos where the wolves threw a shutout.

But that is all I can think of prior to this one.

The vampire game I'm pretty sure was for all purposed a villager shutout. We hit both master vamps the first two days. The theory of that game of course was there were no night kills only conversions. And if you killed the master vamp you killed all of his conversions. We got lucky day 1 and hit one master vamp and then the seer hit the other that night.

The Star Wars game wasn't REALLY a shutout. I got killed and I was a wolf, just not a real main wolf. Ofcourse it could be said my goal was to get the main ones killed so I could assume the power. If you go by that logic then I guess it was a shutout.

Chief Rum · 06-01-2009, 11:53 PM

Sounds like I am shitting all over the game, but to be fair, it was a fun game, and the concepts used were cool. I think BK messed up in making 5 bad guys in a 17 person game, way over the more standard 6:1 ratio I have seen be appropriate, and then tossing in the lack of villager "real" roles and giving the wolves the name of a key role most would assume is in the game that actually wasn't. And that was before random.org dropped a Dream Team of wolves on the game (which can't be helped, such is the way it is).

All that, I feel, is true. But with all the possible believed roles out there, I can certainly see the uncertaintly BK was coming from on setting the balance. I think he overestimated a bit on what the village could do with what it had, but it was a tough target to hit. This is not a game in which balance would ever be easy to achieve.

Autumn · 06-01-2009, 11:55 PM

It was a fun game to follow along on, great job Barkeep. I wasn't following along carefully enough to make any real guesses what was going on, but I certainly wouldn't have guessed that both Lathum and Dubb were bad at the end. We've seen some fantastic wolf play the last few games.

hoopsguy · 06-01-2009, 11:56 PM

At least for the games I run, I lean more towards a 4:1 - 5:1 range on villager/wolf because of the number of unique villager roles.

6:1 is a tough go, probably only suited for a "vanilla" game. Obviously Y.M.M.V.

Lathum · 06-01-2009, 11:57 PM

I also played more calm this game then usual and will do so in the future. I received feedback after last game that I was more inflamatory then usual and a little over the line in terms of nastieness.

Racer · 06-01-2009, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

It has but not to often.

I am also amazed that Sal didn't take more heat about killing NTN and that people didn't jump on me about not giving it to him, that is the kind of thing I am usually all over.

Yeah, I think I mentioned it like once (something to the effect that it was odd he chose NTN over Hoops and dubbs) but got distracted with Dubbs vs. you as well as defending myself.

hoopsguy · 06-02-2009, 12:03 AM

Here is a post from another thread on two games that were blowouts, one in each direction. The Mafia game is the one I was thinking of for the wolf blowout.

Quote:

Werewolf XI: The return to Transylvania - Page 2 - Front Office Football Central

Might be one of the fastest WW games. Turned an incredibly stupid d1 role reveal into lynching a wolf, then our seer picked the right guy and the next lynch we ended the game.

Here's another fun one, that I remember participating in. Everything played out almost perfect, and we dominated.
Werewolf XII: Mafia Returneth - Page 14 - Front Office Football Central

Chief Rum · 06-02-2009, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

At least for the games I run, I lean more towards a 4:1 - 5:1 range on villager/wolf because of the number of unique villager roles.

6:1 is a tough go, probably only suited for a "vanilla" game. Obviously Y.M.M.V.

I don't think any game should be under 5:1 unless there is an insane amount of "help" for the villagers. I feel that's fairly proven over time, too, from my own observations anyway.

EagleFan · 06-02-2009, 12:15 AM

The draft one was fun. That was a shutout until the last day when the brutal was handed over to the village for the end game result. That was completely one sided mostly due to unfortunate lynch choices by the village and the wolves doing a very good job of not making any moves which stood out as questionable. I was fortunate to be on the winning side of that one as the traitor (my absolutely favorite role in any game that I have played)

There was another where I was a wolf on the wrong side of a shutout. There was an unfortunate day one result thanks to a PB duke to me and then the game just collapsed due to too many roles if I recall correctly (where everyone basically revealed their roles and the odd players out were the wolves).

EagleFan · 06-02-2009, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I don't think any game should be under 5:1 unless there is an insane amount of "help" for the villagers. I feel that's fairly proven over time, too, from my own observations anyway.

This is true. Not making an excuse but this one was 12:5 which was a pretty steep climb, if there was a believed cultist it could have been 11:6 in theory.

With that said, I like the fake reveal aspect. If we could get one of those 25+ player games like this it could be very entertaining.

henry296 · 06-02-2009, 12:20 AM

Eagle Fan... I think we played a game where we where the two wolves in a small game and got slaughtered. One of the last ones I every played in and my first as a wolf.

EagleFan · 06-02-2009, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by henry296

Eagle Fan... I think we played a game where we where the two wolves in a small game and got slaughtered. One of the last ones I every played in and my first as a wolf.

That sounds familiar. I think that was in the midst of my long wolf run where I was a wolf in 5 straight games.

Was that the "UN" one? I remember there being a small one that ran during around the same time as the political one. That sounds like the one.

DaddyTorgo · 06-02-2009, 08:51 AM

who won?

Barkeep49 · 06-02-2009, 08:53 AM

The wolves.

DaddyTorgo · 06-02-2009, 11:16 AM

so i gathered.

suckeroo.

at least backwards-squirrel wasn't a wolf who was playing me.

06-01-2009, 11:53 PM	#1827
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	Sounds like I am shitting all over the game, but to be fair, it was a fun game, and the concepts used were cool. I think BK messed up in making 5 bad guys in a 17 person game, way over the more standard 6:1 ratio I have seen be appropriate, and then tossing in the lack of villager "real" roles and giving the wolves the name of a key role most would assume is in the game that actually wasn't. And that was before random.org dropped a Dream Team of wolves on the game (which can't be helped, such is the way it is). All that, I feel, is true. But with all the possible believed roles out there, I can certainly see the uncertaintly BK was coming from on setting the balance. I think he overestimated a bit on what the village could do with what it had, but it was a tough target to hit. This is not a game in which balance would ever be easy to achieve. __________________ . . I would rather be wrong...Than live in the shadows of your song...My mind is open wide...And now I'm ready to start...You're not sure...You open the door...And step out into the dark...Now I'm ready.

06-02-2009, 12:20 AM	#1836
henry296 College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Pittsburgh, PA	Eagle Fan... I think we played a game where we where the two wolves in a small game and got slaughtered. One of the last ones I every played in and my first as a wolf. __________________ "It's a great day for hockey" - "Badger" Bob Johnson

06-02-2009, 08:51 AM	#1838
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	who won? __________________ Get bent whoever hacked my pw and changed my signature.

06-02-2009, 11:16 AM	#1840
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	so i gathered. suckeroo. at least backwards-squirrel wasn't a wolf who was playing me. __________________ Get bent whoever hacked my pw and changed my signature.

06-01-2009, 11:31 PM	#1801
EagleFan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Mays Landing, NJ USA	I guess that wasn't a dola after all.

06-01-2009, 11:32 PM	#1804
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	I really do think that getting the seer on D1, where there is statistically less chance of it ending up with a wolf, is the optimal play. I just wanted to hoard it for myself to keep the village from being able to play optimally.

06-01-2009, 11:33 PM	#1807
Danny Head Coach Join Date: Jul 2001	I did not know whether or not the wolves knew about their being no BG.

06-01-2009, 11:39 PM	#1814
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	I don't blame Saldana one bit for being cautious with the Deacon

06-01-2009, 11:40 PM	#1817
Racer College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana	Man, we really did get our asses kicked. Has the village been shut out before?

06-01-2009, 11:55 PM	#1828
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	It was a fun game to follow along on, great job Barkeep. I wasn't following along carefully enough to make any real guesses what was going on, but I certainly wouldn't have guessed that both Lathum and Dubb were bad at the end. We've seen some fantastic wolf play the last few games.

06-01-2009, 11:56 PM	#1829
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	At least for the games I run, I lean more towards a 4:1 - 5:1 range on villager/wolf because of the number of unique villager roles. 6:1 is a tough go, probably only suited for a "vanilla" game. Obviously Y.M.M.V.

06-01-2009, 11:57 PM	#1830
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	I also played more calm this game then usual and will do so in the future. I received feedback after last game that I was more inflamatory then usual and a little over the line in terms of nastieness.

06-02-2009, 12:15 AM	#1834
EagleFan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Mays Landing, NJ USA	The draft one was fun. That was a shutout until the last day when the brutal was handed over to the village for the end game result. That was completely one sided mostly due to unfortunate lynch choices by the village and the wolves doing a very good job of not making any moves which stood out as questionable. I was fortunate to be on the winning side of that one as the traitor (my absolutely favorite role in any game that I have played) There was another where I was a wolf on the wrong side of a shutout. There was an unfortunate day one result thanks to a PB duke to me and then the game just collapsed due to too many roles if I recall correctly (where everyone basically revealed their roles and the odd players out were the wolves).

06-02-2009, 08:53 AM	#1839
Barkeep49 Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Not too far away	The wolves.

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