Lakers vs Magic and the 2008-2009 NBA Playoffs/Finals Thread

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Get the ball rolling....

NBA Jam
NBA Jam Tournament Edition
NBA.com Team Index

Atlanta: Stacey Augmon vs Josh Smith? I liked Augmon as a player, and Smith is good too, but I'll say Augmon.

Ok, I'll take Houston as I was well versed in them in NBA Jam (tho, again, TE). I really like Yao but there's no contest against Hakeem who was just amazing. In TE, it was tough because I liked to play an inside-out game where I used the shot blocker and dunker or passed out to a 3 point guy and the best Houston had was Horry or Maxwell. Hakeem/Thorpe was a great defensive combo and I've often talked with my two co-workers about how there really aren't as many clean-the-glass tough guys who don't score at the 4 any more. You have a lot more guys who are either scorers and a lot of just crappy 4's. Still, if you made NBA Jam this year, TMac or Artest would be #2 and I think I'd have to lean that way over Thorpe or, older versions, Kenny Smith or Vernon "shotgun" Maxwell.

Verdict for Houston: 2009 version

SI

[RainMaker]

I think the difference in the 90's and today is the parity that took over the league upon the implementation of the salary cap. The 90's had more top tier teams, but they also had more atrocious teams. The Bulls also made some great teams look worse than they were.

Besides teams the Bulls faced in the finals who were all better than this year's Magic, there was always a lot of competition in the East. You had the Knicks who were perfectly built for that era of basketball. A Magic team that featured Shaq and Penny (along with some others). The Hornets squad was pretty good with Mourning and LJ. There was also some good Heat and Hawks teams from that time. The Nets had a solid squad with Coleman and Anderson while the Cavs were always a solid playoff team in the beginning of the era.

I'm not taking anything away from Kobe, I'm just saying I'd much rather have his road to a title than anything the Bulls went through in the 90's. If you look back on the road that championship teams have had, you won't find one like this unless you go back to the Pistons titles. All I've been trying to say is that this ring would have added much more to his legacy if he had beaten a KG-led Celtics team or Lebron and the Cavs. I don't know how you can argue that.

[Big Fo]

Orlando: Penny Hardaway (TE) > Rashard Lewis > Scott Skiles

sterlingice, Horry was so good on TE that I would take him over a healthy McGrady, he was one of the best players on the game.

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

All I've been trying to say is that this ring would have added much more to his legacy if he had beaten a KG-led Celtics team or Lebron and the Cavs. I don't know how you can argue that.

Orlando is better than Cleveland, that's one argument. You have a better case with Boston but I still disagree with the premise, a title is a title.

Is Peyton Manning's legacy tarnished by the Bears team the Colts beat not being that good? No.

Or when NFC teams beat up on the Broncos like crazy in the 80's, those championships matter just as much as it would had two 16-0 teams filled with Hall of Famers had gone at it.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Besides teams the Bulls faced in the finals who were all better than this year's Magic, there was always a lot of competition in the East. You had the Knicks who were perfectly built for that era of basketball. A Magic team that featured Shaq and Penny (along with some others). The Hornets squad was pretty good with Mourning and LJ. There was also some good Heat and Hawks teams from that time. The Nets had a solid squad with Coleman and Anderson while the Cavs were always a solid playoff team in the beginning of the era.

You mention many "good" teams, but not elite teams. Other than the Bulls, the only other team you could put in that "eliteosphere" is the 90' Rockets.

Let's look at this decade (primarily in the Western Conference). The Spurs and Kobe/Shaq Lakers are elite teams. You could probably put the Pistons in there as well (with, like, seven consecutive trips to the conference finals). How about the Dallas Mavericks and Phoenix Suns at full strength? I'd take either of those teams over the Magic with an underdeveloped Shaq/overrated Penny and a Hornets team that did next to nothing. As for the Knicks, when were they relevant outside of that brief period of time when Jordan retired? Maybe I'll give you the Pacers, but I have trouble naming anyone on that team other than Reggie Miller, Mark Jackson, and Rik Smits. Only Jackson may have the stats, but Miller is the only one that screams HoF there. 1990 Hawks/Heat? Please! The current Hawks are better than those Hawks.

Methinks a lot of your arguments are steeped in nostalga instead of fact.

[sterlingice]

There are some really obvious ones with better NBA Jam teams but those were the "dominant" teams of those eras:
Chicago: NBA Jam easy (if you assume Jordan was on the team, making Pippen #2)
Utah: Mailman and Stockton will be one of the best NBA Jam teams ever
Charlotte: Grandmama and Zo were unstoppable in the game
Sacramento: Tisdale and Mitch Richmond (tho the team went no deeper than that) vs... um, ???
Knicks: Ewing and Starks/Oakley vs whatever filth they have now- tho to be fair, their problem was the lack of a constant second threat
etc

2009 also produces some obvious ones as those teams are much better now than they were then:
Cleveland: LeBron, Williams over Price/Daugherty
Denver: Carmelo, Billups vs Young Dikembe, LaPhonso Ellis or Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf
Lakers: Kobe and Gasol/Odom vs Divac Worthy/Van Exel

But the good teams are no fun as they're pretty easy. How about the crap teams?

Washington: if healthy, it's Arenas and Butler but what if you made it realistic and could only play with Arenas half the time against Tom Gugliotta and Harvey Grant.
Milwaukee: Brad Lohaus and Blue Edwards vs Redd and Jefferson?
Minnesota: Christian Laettner and Chuck Person/Isiah Rider vs Al Jefferson and Randy Foye with Ryan Gomes or Kevin Love as the unlock special?
Toronto: Bosh and Bargnani vs the NBA Jam TE developers?

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Orlando: Penny Hardaway (TE) > Rashard Lewis > Scott Skiles

sterlingice, Horry was so good on TE that I would take him over a healthy McGrady, he was one of the best players on the game.

I dunno. I always felt like he was a cheaper version of the Charlotte pair- good all around but just not that upper level. Still, if we're talking who is the better "second best player" in real life, it's no contest as both TMac and Artest kill Horry.

SI

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

You mention many "good" teams, but not elite teams. Other than the Bulls, the only other team you could put in that "eliteosphere" is the 90' Rockets.

Let's look at this decade (primarily in the Western Conference). The Spurs and Kobe/Shaq Lakers are elite teams. You could probably put the Pistons in there as well (with, like, seven consecutive trips to the conference finals). How about the Dallas Mavericks and Phoenix Suns at full strength? I'd take either of those teams over the Magic with an underdeveloped Shaq/overrated Penny and a Hornets team that did next to nothing. As for the Knicks, when were they relevant outside of that brief period of time when Jordan retired? Maybe I'll give you the Pacers, but I have trouble naming anyone on that team other than Reggie Miller, Mark Jackson, and Rik Smits. Only Jackson may have the stats, but Miller is the only one that screams HoF there. 1990 Hawks/Heat? Please! The current Hawks are better than those Hawks.

Methinks a lot of your arguments are steeped in nostalga instead of fact.

I think the early part of this decade was strong with great teams. I do think they all came from the West though. That Pistons team did reach an astounding number of Conference Finals, but if you put them in the West, they reach maybe a couple.

I'm not arguing that though. I'm arguing this year's playoffs. You can't honestly tell me that this year's Magic were a tougher challenge than any of the Finals teams in the 90's that the Bulls went through? There were 3 elite teams in the league throughout the year and only one made it to the Finals. The Cavs were exposed and the Celtics were missing their best player.

I also think you are overdoing the love for teams like the Mavs and Suns. They are good teams from this era, but that's it. They look great because they put up a lot of points but that is more a factor of the era they play in. The 90's were about defense and wasn't as flashy as the wide open era we currently have.

[sterlingice]

For the record, I thought the two easiest teams in the game for me to play with were the Jazz and the Pacers. I'd play the shot blocking, glass cleaning, strong dunking guy (Malone/Smits) and if I saw trouble, just dish out for a 3 from the deadeye guys (Stockton/Miller). The only problem with that is the 3rd quarter, when you would have to rest someone. Hornacek could step in fine for Stockton and Malone had huge stamina points so you almost never had to sub. But Indiana didn't have that luxury.

SI

[RainMaker]

I hated the fact that Jordan was never in the NBA Jam games (or any video games for that matter). I always played as the Hornets with LJ and Mourning. On TE I loved the Reggie/Smits combo.

I also wasn't afraid to throw down with the Clintons or DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

I would say just the opposite - that this has the chance to be the start of a good run for the Magic but the biggest factor in anything is Dwight Howard. Howard needs to become a dominant center. If he can add at least one post move and improve his FT shooting and ability to pass out of double teams then Orlando is the team to beat. I think they need to keep Turk - yeah it puts them into luxury tax territory but a lineup of Nelson, Lee, Turk, Lewis and Howard is very, very solid.

The Celtics will have KG back but might trade Ray Allen (last year of his contract and Ainge knows his team is OLD plus has contract decisions coming up like Rondo). I don't see Perkins being able to stop Howard. Same for the Cavs - we already saw what a bad matchup that is for them. Miami only gets better if they add another superstar - Bosh wants to play there so they might get him in 2010 or see if they can trade for him but I can't see Toronto trading him unless they got Beasley in the deal and I don't like Chicago - Rose is going to be a good player but they may lose Gordon to free agency and they really need to make some moves to straighten the roster out. If they keep Gordon then why have Salmons and Deng? Who's going to take Deng with his contract? Who's going to stop Howard in the post? Brad Miller? Noah? Ty Thomas? Please...

Detroit is interesting because of the cap room and both Gordon and Boozer have been rumored as possible adds as well as the possibility of trading Rip or Prince. I say if we find a buyer for Rip to do it. Detroit might end up with a decent starting lineup but we have zero depth. Dyess is probably going to a contender (and he should after playing his ass off here to get a ring), Amir Johnson was a disaster and Joe wants to move his contract, Maxiell is a good energy guy but that's what he's good for - 20-25 minutes of high energy but that's his ceiling IMO. Bynum, Afflalo - maybe they turn into decent role players. Even if they sign Boozer that still leaves them one post player short and they might be able to draft Mullens but he's going to take time to develop too.

Like I said, I think everything for Orlando rests on Howard. The Magic are constructed perfectly for him - with Lee, Turk and Lewis all being outside shooters that should leave plenty of space for Nelson to be able to drive and for Howard to post. I think it would be a mistake to get another post player (or even play a guy like Gortat with him) because you're just adding another defender in the post and taking away Howard's room. If he can prove that he's got more than one move (back them down and dunk) and can pass or even take a dribble and then pass out of a double/triple team then they're going to be really, really tough to defend. The one move Orlando needs to do is ship Alston - that guy has the ability to implode that team with his attitude - not to mention that he's just way too inconsistent.

I agree with you. It all comes down to whether Howard can develop an offensive game that compares to his defense and rebounding. He also needs to get much better at free throws.

I think the Bulls roster will change a lot in the coming years. They will have a lot of cap room in 2010 and will push hard for one of the big names. Wade makes a lot of sense since he is from Chicago and would essentially give the Bulls the best backcourt in the game. There has been a lot of rumors of Bosh for Deng in recent weeks since Toronto doesn't want to lose Bosh for nothing. I'm not sold on Bosh though.

I would actually argue that Gordon can be a detriment to the team at times. They played a lot better with Hinrich in the game in the playoffs because of his defense. Gordon demanded a lot of shots and took the ball out of Rose's hands too much. While I know he has the ability to put up big numbers on any night, he also has his 2 for 15 nights that kill them. His defense is also poor and I think he's better served as a 6th man for a really good team. It's going against the grain, but I think the Bulls are a better team without Gordon.

In any event, the Deng contract is really their only bad one. While he had a down year, he isn't horrible either. He's still a guy who has averaged over 15 points a game in his career and shoots the mid-range jumper real well. I think he has a better year next year now that the glut of guards will be gone and he'll have a more stable position in the rotation.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There has been a lot of rumors of Bosh for Deng in recent weeks since Toronto doesn't want to lose Bosh for nothing. I'm not sold on Bosh though.

There's no way this happens and if there is then I'd like to know if Zeke is still running the Raptors.

Bosh is a stud - Deng is hurt every ten minutes and has a huge contract. If they deal Bosh I think they push for Miami and try to get Beasley - Bosh wants to play there and that would keep Wade there too.

Honestly I could see Chicago trying something like Deng for Shaq.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

There's no way this happens and if there is then I'd like to know if Zeke is still running the Raptors.

Bosh is a stud - Deng is hurt every ten minutes and has a huge contract. If they deal Bosh I think they push for Miami and try to get Beasley - Bosh wants to play there and that would keep Wade there too.

Well it wouldn't be straight up. Would include Tyrus Thomas and possibly both first round draft picks the Bulls have. If I'm the Raptors and can get Beasley and don't have to take on bad contracts, I'd do it. I'm just reporting on the rumors that ESPN had as well as the local papers here.

I'd also state that I don't buy that Bosh is a stud. He's a very good player but he wasn't able to even get his team into the playoffs in the mediocre East. I'm not completely sold on him being a max contract player.

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Honestly I could see Chicago trying something like Deng for Shaq.

Shaq has such a bad contract though. I guess the thinking would be to give up on this season and then unload Shaq's expiring contract in 2010 so that they could pick up a big name free agent. I'd still rather them just not sign Gordon or trade Hinrich instead of going the Shaq route. He just doesn't fit what the team is doing.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'd also state that I don't buy that Bosh is a stud. He's a very good player but he wasn't able to even get his team into the playoffs in the mediocre East. I'm not completely sold on him being a max contract player.

I'm with you on that one. I don't like Bosh's game at all.

[Groundhog]

dola

Unless we're talking fantasy ball. He puts up OK numbers most nights, but I don't class him as a "winning player".

[Icy]

Gasol and NBA are all over the news in Spain, even on non sports newspapers and TV.

I found this quoted in an Spanish news site, interesting and now fun reading about a young guy named Gasol that was just drafted #3 overall by Memphis... also briefly mentions his bro named Marc who would play in a Memphis High School as he also moved to USA...

THE GRIZZLIES HAVE BET THEIR FUTURE THAT PAU GASOL IS A - 10.29.01 - SI Vault

[sterlingice]

Good on him and cool to see in Spain

SI