Michael Vick on 60 minutes

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

I realize it's not a popular opinion to have, as everyone loves CUTE WIDDLE PUPPES! OMGZ! What about all the animals that aren't even given a chance to fight for their lives every single day? Why is that okay and this isn't? I realize that dogfighting is despicable. I would never dream of participating in it, watching it, or associating with anyone who would ever do either of those things. It's pretty hypocritical, though.

I'm not a vegetarian. I love me a good steak more than just about anything in this world (not hyperbole). Cows on a conveyor belt a la Another Brick In The Wall is something that feel rather sad about. However, before I was old enough to develop a conscience, I ate meat all the time. Some people are force fed religion by their parents. I was force fed filet mignon. It sounds rough, I know, but I haven't been able to cut meat out of my diet. It's morally reprehensible to eat as much meat as we do. I wrestle with it all the time, and am paranoid that my vegan friends all meet up and have tribunals about the meat-eating sins of heartless Karl.

What would people think of me if I just started lining up dogs and slaughtering them? When the outrage started, I'd just say, "Hey, man's gotta eat. You do this shit to all other animals, and I do it to dogs. I like how dogs taste."

So, to sum it all up: If Lassie had been about a cow, none of this would have ever happened.

There is a big difference in killing an animal to eat and killing an animal for some perverted joy. There is also a difference between animals that are raised for food and those that are domesticated and not.

[RainMaker]

My opinion on the interview. Pure puff piece bullshit. Huge conflict of interest to have James Brown do the interview on a network that has a massive vested interest in the NFL. 60 Minutes usually is quality but this was an embarassment to their show.

I also don't think Vick came out well in it. First, he sounded like an inbred moron. Must have said "I is" half a dozen times. Second, he still never really owned up to the shit. He still tried to play it off on others and never just came out and said "I did some horrible things to animals and I'm sorry".

Lastly, I don't like the stance the Humane Society is taking in this. They are letting Vick use them for good PR.

[cyril]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Lastly, I don't like the stance the Humane Society is taking in this. They are letting Vick use them for good PR.

I wonder if the Humane Society has done any Luric type of soul-searching to make this Faustian pact with the devil. I don't think this would be any effective at all - Anyone who buys into the new Vick "sponsorship" are probably the same people who think Tiger Woods really love driving a Buick.

This whole campaign could backfire on them, making kids think it's actually "cool" to be like Michael and jump into this horrible activity.

[lungs]

Speaking of the Humane Society of the United States, in one of their commercials about preventing animal cruelty they show a cow being moved via forklift and the cow make a very distressed noise. The problem is the cow in the video is dead. They dubbed the sound over it. How do I know this? Rigor mortis had set in as the cow was completely rigid. A tad bit misleading if you ask me, although the premise isn't bad at all. I have rules against moving live cows with forks on my farm. But you damn well better bet I'll move a dead one with forks.

[RainMaker]

How humane is the killing of cows in this country lungs? Always curious to hear from someone with actual background in the industry. I've actually done my best to swear off KFC after seeing where their chicken was coming from (I know everyone probably sells that stuff).

[molson]

You really have to be in denial to eat meat (as I am). If you think about how much suffering humans cause animals in the world, it's pretty overwhelming. Sure, they're just animals, and their lives aren't as valuable, but the pain and fear and suffering isn't less. A big getting the knife in the throat probably isn't all that much more pleasant when it happens to a human. And it happens on an incredible scale.

I'm a hypocrite, because I still eat meat sometimes, but I think people are going to continue to turn away from it more an more.

[RainMaker]

What's worse though? Getting a knife to the throat real quick or getting ripped to shreds by a Wolf. Most animals out there will die gruesome deaths that put what these meat factories do to shame.

I also don't think you can compare the experiences. They feel pain but can they really understand it? Is it more of a reflex? When we are in pain we understand it, can understand the magnitude of it. An animal with a lesser brain may not be able to comprehend what's going on.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What's worse though? Getting a knife to the throat real quick or getting ripped to shreds by a Wolf. Most animals out there will die gruesome deaths that put what these meat factories do to shame.

I also don't think you can compare the experiences. They feel pain but can they really understand it? Is it more of a reflex? When we are in pain we understand it, can understand the magnitude of it. An animal with a lesser brain may not be able to comprehend what's going on.

Very true - obviously there's a ton of natural suffering in the animal world. I think man takes to to a whole different level though, volume wise with certain animals for food production.

From what I've read, pigs seems to suffer the most, which makes sense becaue they're smart - smarter than dogs. They see it coming.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Very true - obviously there's a ton of natural suffering in the animal world. I think man takes to to a whole different level though, volume wise with certain animals for food production.

From what I've read, pigs seems to suffer the most, which makes sense becaue they're smart - smarter than dogs. They see it coming.

Yeah, the pigs always bother me. I did cut out all pork awhile back. I can't go completely vegetarian so I did decide to cut out certain animals. The pigs seem to be the toughest and most inhumane to kill. Plus their meat isn't really that great for us anyway. I still contend that the death they get at the slaughterhouse is probably better than getting ripped to shreds in the woods by some animal.

I have found myself trying to eat less meat as a whole. I'm more careful with waste and I have made an effort to swap out stuff like sausage for the MorningStar veggie stuff (which I can't really taste much of a difference on). At the same time though, we were meant to eat meat and it is still one of the healthiest foods out there. It can be tough to maintain good protein levels without some meat in your diet.

[gstelmack]

I eat meat because I was made an omnivore and it's difficult to get the proteins, etc from other sources (I know that if you're careful it's possible to be a herbivore, but that's a ton of trouble that I was not built to handle). I swore off chicken for about 2 years after the one time I had to pluck some (mostly because I couldn't get the image out of my head of how disgusting plucking is and would get nauseated whenever chicken was placed in front of me rather than a concern over eating an animal I knew), and I still eat very few pork products after we slaughtered a pair of pigs we owned when I was a kid and I got to listen to the squealing after one was shot. It's not easy, but we were built to eat both meat and veggies.

I do have a hard time eating an animal that loves to curl up on the couch with me on Sundays and watch football. Huge difference between my dog and even the rabbits that are outside my window, let alone a cow or a chicken.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

How humane is the killing of cows in this country lungs? Always curious to hear from someone with actual background in the industry. I've actually done my best to swear off KFC after seeing where their chicken was coming from (I know everyone probably sells that stuff).

There have been issues with some slaughter houses and their handling of animals but they were also breaking laws that state all cows must be able to walk on their own power to enter the human food population.

The common practice is to use a bolt gun to stun the cow and knock it out at which point its throat is cut to cause death.

Any killing I do personally is of the mercy type. When myself and the veterinarian can do nothing for the animal I use a .22 rifle. I always take a few extra bullets to make sure the job is done and make sure I stay until I'm sure she is dead.

My biggest animal welfare concern is the handling of cows that can't walk. They need to be removed from the general population and onto grass. Unfortunately there are probably too many out there that use forks to scoop them up and move them. But the stress that puts on the animal is such that you may as well euthanize it after moving it. So why not euthanize it on the spot?

I've got a guy on my staff that is extremely good at handling cows like this. We basically scoop them up with a Bobcat using a large bucket instead of forks. He ties their legs in such a way that they can't thrash and injure themselves during transport. It probably doesn't look the best to the uninformed observer but it's the best way I've seen to move a cow in such a way that she still has a fighting chance once we get her onto the grass.

Moving an immobile animal that can weigh upwards of 2000 lbs. can be quite a pickle. It's an area that I believe we'll see improvements in devices soon as animal welfare concerns grow.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

I do have a hard time eating an animal that loves to curl up on the couch with me on Sundays and watch football. Huge difference between my dog and even the rabbits that are outside my window, let alone a cow or a chicken.

I don't butcher any of my own cows for personal use because of this. That's why I enjoy being a dairy farmer because my goal is to keep all of the animals alive as long as possible, so they do become like pets (even though I have close to 900 total).

But I do love a good steak and a good cheeseburger.

edit: I do send cows off to slaughter though after they are no longer economically viable. But that's kind of an out of sight, out of mind thing.

[cyril]

humans are by nature omnivores, so I don't have any problem with people raising animals for meat. I do believe, however, that as the most intelligent and the most morally-conscious species on Earth, we have the responsibility to put as little misery as possible to those lesser species that we kill for food. Quick and painless death is the minimum we could do.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by cyril

humans are by nature omnivores, so I don't have any problem with people raising animals for meat. I do believe, however, that as the most intelligent and the most morally-conscious species on Earth, we have the responsibility to put as little misery as possible to those lesser species that we kill for food. Quick and painless death is the minimum we could do.

No arguments here as somebody who raises animals for food.

[RainMaker]

In college there was a class that discussed meat eating. There was a girl and guy who were hardcore vegans and explained how horrible killing was. I remember my professor came out with these statistics that were mind boggling. That tens of billions of birds die every year in the real world, millions of other animals. Most gruesome deaths from either being eaten by another animal alive or diseased. Many just die of starvation or dehydration.

The point was that nature is pretty fucking cruel. There are no humane deaths in the real world. Walking out your backyard and seeing a baby Robin ripped to shreds by a Hawk is just nature. Now that's not to say that we should ever be inhumane, but when people complain about slaughterhouses, they forget that in nature we're seeing a lot more deaths that are much more gruesome.

[CraigSca]

There should be an article in the Onion about PETA demonstrating against nature - if there isn't one already.

[RomaGoth]

What people fail to understand is that the strongest and most fit will survive. Nature has a way of weeding out the weak. I see nothing wrong with eating meat (I love me a good steak). I also believe that we should try and butcher our animals as painlessly as possible.

With that being said, we are humans and the natural order of things is for us to eat meat. What Vick did had nothing at all to do with any of this, it was just brutal treatment of animals and he is still a douchebag.

@Lungs, are you purely a dairy farmer or do you raise other animals on your land?

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There is a big difference in killing an animal to eat and killing an animal for some perverted joy. There is also a difference between animals that are raised for food and those that are domesticated and not.

I don't know, man. With the all options we have foodwise, I'd say eating meat is a bit of a perverted joy.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

I don't know, man. With the all options we have foodwise, I'd say eating meat is a bit of a perverted joy.

Much much much less perverted than shooting something and just leaving its carcass in the wilderness.

Or say drowning a dog because it doesn't fight hard enough.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

I don't know, man. With the all options we have foodwise, I'd say eating meat is a bit of a perverted joy.

Where are you going to get pure protein like you can from lean meats?

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

I don't know, man. With the all options we have foodwise, I'd say eating meat is a bit of a perverted joy.

Have to disagree with you Karl. The circle of life, cycle of nature, whatever you want to call it proves otherwise.

Case in point:

human > bear > fox > bird > insects

OR

the typical Tom & Jerry scenario:

Dog > Cat > Mouse

I personally enjoy eating a good steak or hamburger. Doesn't bother me if someone else does not. Each to his own.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

@Lungs, are you purely a dairy farmer or do you raise other animals on your land?

Strictly dairy.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Lastly, I don't like the stance the Humane Society is taking in this. They are letting Vick use them for good PR.

I tend to view this as they are using him to try to make an impact in inner city communities where dogfighting is a much greater part of the culture than most of us can fathom. If all this exposure through Vick is able to do anything at all to begin to change that culture than I am all for it.

Ya'll are obviously *way* more cynical about this than I am though. In the end I could care less about Michael Vick, he's been to prison, lost many many millions of dollars that was coming his way, so I don't really give a shit about continuing to hate or actively punish him as a football player one way or the other, but if inner city communities can benefit in any way then good.