Girl Bullied Till She Committed Suicide

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SportsDino

Whether she slept with someone or not, that shouldn't be excuse for an excessive campaign of terror on her.

???

I haven't seen anyone excuse it, not here nor elsewhere. As far as I can figure I've probably been the most outspoken on that subject here & even I limited it to whether a specific taunt was legitimately actionable while acknowledging how much of the other stuff was obviously actionable.

How is it hard to believe that the LEADING contributing factor to her suicide is the repeated attacks on her by everyone in her peer group?

I believe having a switchblade held to your throat in middle school for the joint sins of being white & being smart, still having the scars on my arm from scratches inflicted at age 8 by a school bus teenager angry because I could read better than she could, and a laundry list of lesser offenses on a daily & even hourly basis qualifies as a having been bullied, so I can at least speak from personal experience on the subject.

And with that I have a difficult time believing any of that is the #1 factor in a suicide, which is also from the perspective of having put a loaded gun in my mouth for the first time at age 13.

Underlying issues led to my suicidal reaction to various provocations, but the abuse did not dictate my reaction.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by SportsDino

How is it hard to believe that the LEADING contributing factor to her suicide is the repeated attacks on her by everyone in her peer group? People want to bring up 'other factors' because they either want to shift the blame or they want to understand why the statistic isn't higher... both of which are useless.

No. That wasn't the quesiton asked. The question was asking if the bullying was the ONLY factor. Sure, it was likely the leading factor, but that wasn't the comment I was addressing.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

No. That wasn't the quesiton asked. The question was asking if the bullying was the ONLY factor. Sure, it was likely the leading factor, but that wasn't the comment I was addressing.

Nor was it the one I was addressing. Only and leading are very different. Children and teens are quite resilient and if they have a good home life with strong family support, then suicide is very unlikely if Bullying is the teen's only problem.

[Silver Owl]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

She is 15, shows up at a new school and is spreading her legs for (allegedly) multiple older guys in a short period of time.

And you have to ask if maybe, just maybe, she had other issues????

*sigh*

I just reread the article and don't see anywhere that she was "spreading her legs for (allegedly) multiple older guys".

Am I missing something? If not, then thats an awful big leap.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Silver Owl

I just reread the article and don't see anywhere that she was "spreading her legs for (allegedly) multiple older guys

Well as of this afternoon two have been charged with statutory rape, and I haven't seen anything that mentions those not being male & depending upon the applicable state law those are presumably older (again presumably one of them the senior football player she's referenced as dating).

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'm sort of torn on this issue. On one hand, it's a free society and this is part of growing up. I don't know how you can fairly police it and what it would do to our school and legal system if we made drastic changes. Teenagers are basically sociopathic shitbags trying to find their place on the social pyramid. Not sure if you can ever stop bullying as it impacts free speech and other civil rights.

Civil rights are kinda selective in schools anyway. Student newspapers are free to say whatever they want that the administration will allow, for example.

Warrantless search and seizure exists on any campus that has metal detectors at the entrances, or random drug dog sniffing of the lockers.

The right to bear arms is, of course, right out.

Equal protection only applies in certain cases. School-sponsored extracurriculars, for example. Schools have canceled prom/other formal events because of interrracial/same-gender dating issues.

All of which is to say, concern for civil rights when it comes to preventing bullying is kind of short-sighted. Precedent already exists for infringement in other areas, especially when student safety and health is at risk (see the aforementioned metal detectors, and the story Foz posted last year about the female who was strip-searched over pain medication; I think that one ended with a decision along the lines of 'they fucked up, but they can't be held responsible for it, so piss off').

[rowech]

The courts have continually judged in favor of schools when it comes to violating student rights. Students do not have freedom of speech within the school itself. The courts have gone so far as to say they don't have the right to say whatever they want on their facebook pages either. (depending on what is said)

[rowech]

I should clarify....students don't have those freedoms if the school can show they are a risk to safety of teachers/students or negatively impact the educational misson.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Silver Owl

I just reread the article and don't see anywhere that she was "spreading her legs for (allegedly) multiple older guys".

Am I missing something? If not, then thats an awful big leap.

I was basing that on this...

Originally Posted by The article linked

The two males, 17 and 18, were charged with statutory rape.

[LoneStarGirl]

As a teacher who has quite a few bullies in my class this year, this story hits close to home. I am a 26 year old teacher and at our school we work in teams, which means there is an English, math, history, and science teacher all teaching the exact same kids and have common planning periods to discuss the best way to handle the students. The other three teachers i work with are old and have a 'dont touch' policy. They dont like talking to the kids about anything besides their work, they dont like hugging, they dont like caring for the most part.

Out of the 75 Gifted and Talented 7th graders I teach, 5 of them are hard core bullies. When the kids being bullied complain the other teachers tell them to get tough skin and sit down. I am the only one they can talk to about it, and when I go to administration to complain about the bullies, I'm told to get back to teaching because kids will be kids.

I even had a student die in a car wreck a month ago (hardest thing I have EVER dealt with in my life) and one of the bullies said 'good, i hope she burns in hell' in front of me and the girl' sobbing friends.... and nobody did anything about it... so I have no doubt in my mind that the administration in this story knew something about this poor girl being bullied, they just probably chose not to do anything about it

[Dodgerchick]

LSG, that breaks my heart

[SportsDino]

Originally Posted by LoneStarGirl

As a teacher who has quite a few bullies in my class this year, this story hits close to home. I am a 26 year old teacher and at our school we work in teams, which means there is an English, math, history, and science teacher all teaching the exact same kids and have common planning periods to discuss the best way to handle the students. The other three teachers i work with are old and have a 'dont touch' policy. They dont like talking to the kids about anything besides their work, they dont like hugging, they dont like caring for the most part.

Out of the 75 Gifted and Talented 7th graders I teach, 5 of them are hard core bullies. When the kids being bullied complain the other teachers tell them to get tough skin and sit down. I am the only one they can talk to about it, and when I go to administration to complain about the bullies, I'm told to get back to teaching because kids will be kids.

I even had a student die in a car wreck a month ago (hardest thing I have EVER dealt with in my life) and one of the bullies said 'good, i hope she burns in hell' in front of me and the girl' sobbing friends.... and nobody did anything about it... so I have no doubt in my mind that the administration in this story knew something about this poor girl being bullied, they just probably chose not to do anything about it

Well the other teachers in that situation are morons.

If we are bringing up personal bullying stories, I was the traditional target... nerdy shy kid. But I was an atypically good and vicious fighter.

I would ask teachers to do something because I would have tried all the other 'turn the other cheek' tricks I was aware of, and figured authority intervention was the only 'legal' way to resolve it at that point.

Good teachers, they stepped in, told the morons to cut the shit out, and on average that was it. Bad teachers who would do the 'tough skin' bullshit, were the ones that end up escorting me to the principals office after I shove a kid's head into a wall. Or position them in a doorframe and push on their arm like a lever. Or broke off a pencil in a kid's leg. Etc...

Some teachers, principals and security guards are just fuckin lazy. And then they jump on 'law abiding' students because they do what they are told, and actually react when they get in trouble (whereas the bullies just laugh it off, I'd have to go through a ton of bullshit). Some of the worst are bullies themselves, they get a sadistic pleasure from seeing people get crapped on.

The 'get tough' line is bullshit. I'm tougher than any bully who ever thought to take me on, and lazy school staff are the only reason I ever needed to prove it. After it got too silly I eventually had to grow up and find a way to handle it, but most teenagers wouldn't have been capable of doing what I did because they don't have that level of self control.

Bullying serves zero educational purpose, it doesn't make tough kids, it makes brats into bigger brats, victims into bitter and cynical people, and for some small fraction it creates nervous wrecks.

As for the 'leading versus only' question I bring it up because its a standard weak argument, someone brings up the 'other factors' line, and then that is used to justify that either bullying is not the key problem or that the victim is in some way extremely inferior and that is why they committed suicide. My point is that the 'other factors' do not matter, what happened here on its own is a crime, and in no way should be downplayed. If you get rid of this 'leading factor' is the girl still alive today, is she maybe able to seek help for her other factors, hell maybe she won't even have other factors to worry about (the only thing mentioned so far is an attack on her being a slut for doing what a lot of immature kids do, again attacking the victim to make an idiotic point).

-----

As for your story Jon, as someone who has gone through my fair share of bullying, and never claim close to contemplating suicide at any point or any reason in my life.... I do not think that makes me qualified to rule it out for all other people that bullying is enough to drive them to suicide. Just because 'you survived' doesn't mean shit. A statistical fallacy if you will.

Without being in her head how can you claim that in her case the abuse was or was not the reason? Or if it turns out she has ADHD or some other mental issue, that it somehow magically becomes the reason she is a suicide (as I've seen happen in other cases of this nature, as soon as anything remotely medical comes into play that instantly is considered the KEY FACTOR and they pat themselves on the back and do nothing to solve the problem).

I'm sure we can agree that bullying is a problem, that is all we need to agree on, maybe I'm just being very specific because I've seen these arguments before fall into trivialities and bullshit lines of thought (like the health care reform thread turning into a calorie counting of fuckin McDonalds).

[JediKooter]

I was bullied for a little while in my freshman year of high school. I never told my dad about it or anyone else. However, I did finally figure out how to stop it...I became just as much of an asshole to them as they did me. That worked in my situation. However, in my sisters situation, there was zero she could do. She was not bullied nor was she the bully and didn't really know any of the parties involved. She happened to be standing by the boys bathroom when a kid who was bullied decided that he had had enough and starting shooting people in the boys bathroom.

He killed two boys in there before coming out and pointing the gun at my sister. Luckily, my sister figured out what was going on and turned tail and started to run. Can't out run a bullet though. She was shot, her friend running in front of her was shot with the same bullet that hit my sister.

My sister was shot in her triceps where the bullet then traveled down the length of her arm and exited her forearm. She almost lost her arm. Then she almost died because of blood clots.

So when I hear of teachers turning a blind eye to a kid being bullied or telling them to 'man up', needs to be fired or anyone saying that, "Hey, I was bullied and I turned out fine". Fuck you and your bullshit. I almost lost my sister and she wasn't even involved in the bullying. Bullying doesn't just affect the two parties involved, it affects everyone in one way or another.

[Logan]

Good lord. Rough story, sorry to hear and glad your sister ended up okay (I presume).

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Logan

Good lord. Rough story, sorry to hear and glad your sister ended up okay (I presume).

Thanks Logan and yes, she is doing good now.

[Autumn]

And Jedi closes the thread with that one. Telling a kid to tough it out might be part of the advice you give to your own kid to deal with bullying, or it might be part of how some kids get through it. But it has no place in the official response of the adults put in charge of kids in a school. Part of the problems with our schools is that we've abdicated them to the kids. Schools, just like homes, should be a place where adults and children interact, and kids learn what being civil means. That requires adults being present and in charge, not that they leave it up to the kids to police themselves.

[DaddyTorgo]

goddamn Jedi

[JediKooter]

You said it DT. I don't want anyone to have to go through that regardless if it's a child, a sibling or a friend.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by LoneStarGirl

As a teacher who has quite a few bullies in my class this year, this story hits close to home. I am a 26 year old teacher and at our school we work in teams, which means there is an English, math, history, and science teacher all teaching the exact same kids and have common planning periods to discuss the best way to handle the students. The other three teachers i work with are old and have a 'dont touch' policy. They dont like talking to the kids about anything besides their work, they dont like hugging, they dont like caring for the most part.

Out of the 75 Gifted and Talented 7th graders I teach, 5 of them are hard core bullies. When the kids being bullied complain the other teachers tell them to get tough skin and sit down. I am the only one they can talk to about it, and when I go to administration to complain about the bullies, I'm told to get back to teaching because kids will be kids.

I even had a student die in a car wreck a month ago (hardest thing I have EVER dealt with in my life) and one of the bullies said 'good, i hope she burns in hell' in front of me and the girl' sobbing friends.... and nobody did anything about it... so I have no doubt in my mind that the administration in this story knew something about this poor girl being bullied, they just probably chose not to do anything about it

I just don't get why it's so hard to setup a system to remove these kids. If 5 kids are disrupting the lives of 75, then they should be removed.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I just don't get why it's so hard to setup a system to remove these kids. If 5 kids are disrupting the lives of 75, then they should be removed.

Here's a reasonably common response, written by a former teacher (commenting online on a recent local story about a county school system looking to tighten its bullying rules)

I remember reporting a clear case of bulling/sexual intimidation/sexual harassment to a school administrator who has gone on to bigger things at CCSD. Racial epithets, sexually derogatory terms, threatened physical/sexual violence --- looked like bullying to me-- all very precisely documented.

I was advised by said administrator that due to her "open door" policy, bullying did not exist in her school. I was told that I had obviously overreacted and misunderstood the "context" of what was happening, and that I was culturally insensitive and bigoted. I responded in somewhat more direct terms than what I'm putting here that in my humble opinion, a repeated threat to commit forcible anal rape transcended cultural lines as a threat. But I could be wrong about that.

Anyway, upshot was I was told that I should tear up my referral/report, I responded that state law required me to report the incident, and so it came to pass that I was invited to not come back.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Here's a reasonably common response, written by a former teacher (commenting online on a recent local story about a county school system looking to tighten its bullying rules)

I remember reporting a clear case of bulling/sexual intimidation/sexual harassment to a school administrator who has gone on to bigger things at CCSD. Racial epithets, sexually derogatory terms, threatened physical/sexual violence --- looked like bullying to me-- all very precisely documented.

I was advised by said administrator that due to her "open door" policy, bullying did not exist in her school. I was told that I had obviously overreacted and misunderstood the "context" of what was happening, and that I was culturally insensitive and bigoted. I responded in somewhat more direct terms than what I'm putting here that in my humble opinion, a repeated threat to commit forcible anal rape transcended cultural lines as a threat. But I could be wrong about that.

Anyway, upshot was I was told that I should tear up my referral/report, I responded that state law required me to report the incident, and so it came to pass that I was invited to not come back.

My ex who was a teacher seemed to state the same thing. Although she would point out that the administrators were more scared of students suing the school or causing problems legally for them that they never really punished anyone. The minute you punished a bully their parents came out guns a blazin threatening the school because of course their child is a perfect angel.

Perhaps it's time we started to hold these administrators criminally responsible for these incidents if they had prior knowledge.

[sterlingice]

Or how about the parents who are legally trying to sue for their kid being a little devil?

SI

[rowech]

1. Administrators aren't likely to tick off parents because they need their vote for funding. (The customer is always right)

2. Many bullies are on behavior IEPs. Legally, in most states, you cannot suspend these kids if the bullying could be considered a byproduct of their disability. In Ohio, it's five days. (unless it has changed)

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Rowech I'm not sure I agree with your assertion that many bullies are on behavior IEPs. To qualify for classification as emotionally disturbed for special education a child would have to exhibit fairly severe behaviors and would likely only be mainstreamed with typically peers for a portion of the day. Particularly in the case of females who exhibit more relational aggression and bullying; I would argue that only a small minority of them have an IEP, and even fewer have a behavior IEP. Often these are the popular and seemingly successful members of the school population.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by TheOhioStateUniversity

Rowech I'm not sure I agree with your assertion that many bullies are on behavior IEPs. To qualify for classification as emotionally disturbed for special education a child would have to exhibit fairly severe behaviors and would likely only be mainstreamed with typically peers for a portion of the day. Particularly in the case of females who exhibit more relational aggression and bullying; I would argue that only a small minority of them have an IEP, and even fewer have a behavior IEP. Often these are the popular and seemingly successful members of the school population.

It isn't often that I get to do this, so I won't pass up the opportunity to post my agreement with tOSU on this post.

There have been bullies -- easily identifiable ones, no borderline cases, no close calls, textbook examples -- for each of the 8 years I've had a kid in school (IEP's didn't exist as such back in the olden days of my school years). There's been only one with an IEP case involving one of those & while anecdotal, given that I'm talking about three different schools with different approaches to IEP's & given additional experiences with how difficult schools make it to even work with an IEP, I'm very hard pressed to think there's anywhere near a significant percentage who have them. "Many" might be true in raw numbers, you could probably gin up a four or five digit number worth, but in terms of percentages that's a drop in the bucket.

[SportsDino]

Back at my school the administrators were slime, so I can easily see this sort of thing coming out of their mouth. The best thing for most school districts would be to fire about 90% of the administration and put it on skeleton crew with only enough time to handle the basics.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Perhaps it's time we started to hold these administrators criminally responsible for these incidents if they had prior knowledge.

I'd rather require administrators to document incidents and send said documentation immediately (via certified mail) to the parents of bullies and victims. Then we can hold the parents (of the bullies) criminally responsible.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Then we can hold the parents (of the bullies) criminally responsible.

If you can get a D.A. to prosecute.
If you can get a grand jury to indict.

Both of which would have been iffy at the very best in every case I've had to deal with (but threatening to hand the matter over to both police & civil attorneys will occasionally move a reluctant adminstrator)

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The minute you punished a bully their parents came out guns a blazin threatening the school because of course their child is a perfect angel.

A nice summary of a critical problem with this country...

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If you can get a D.A. to prosecute.
If you can get a grand jury to indict.

I take your point, but my point was that if you clearly document the cases of abuse and inform the parents via certified mail, you've provided the authorities with considerably more ammunition than they have currently.

Not to mention taking away the "but the school administration never told me nothing" defense in the ensuing civil trials.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If you can get a D.A. to prosecute.
If you can get a grand jury to indict.

Both of which would have been iffy at the very best in every case I've had to deal with (but threatening to hand the matter over to both police & civil attorneys will occasionally move a reluctant adminstrator)

I bet it won't be a problem in Mass.

[LoneStarGirl]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I just don't get why it's so hard to setup a system to remove these kids. If 5 kids are disrupting the lives of 75, then they should be removed.

They have no where to go. The alternative school is for REALLY bad kids, like those who bring knives and guns to school. Its almost impossible to get a kid expelled from school.. they essentially have to hit a teacher to be removed from campus. At least that is my experience here in Arkansas

[LoneStarGirl]

Originally Posted by rowech

1. Administrators aren't likely to tick off parents because they need their vote for funding. (The customer is always right)

2. Many bullies are on behavior IEPs. Legally, in most states, you cannot suspend these kids if the bullying could be considered a byproduct of their disability. In Ohio, it's five days. (unless it has changed)

None of the 5 bullies i have this year are on IEPs.... In fact they have the top IQ's and take 9th grade classes in the 7th grade. They just have TERRIBLE upbringing.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by LoneStarGirl

They have no where to go. The alternative school is for REALLY bad kids, like those who bring knives and guns to school.

Sounds like the ideal place to send the school bullies. Preferably wearing something like this for a uniform

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Sounds like the ideal place to send the school bullies. Preferably wearing something like this for a uniform

I thought the same thing, teach them what it is like to be on the other side if things.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by LoneStarGirl

They have no where to go. The alternative school is for REALLY bad kids, like those who bring knives and guns to school. Its almost impossible to get a kid expelled from school.. they essentially have to hit a teacher to be removed from campus. At least that is my experience here in Arkansas

From reading the complaint, these kids seem like REALLY bad kids. And if they aren't as bad as those, then they'll learn quickly not to fuck with other people. Seems like lessons will be learned all around.

I just hate how we have to worry so much about the bad guys in society. If you dont' want to end up at the alternative school, don't fuck with people like that.

[RainMaker]

More information on the case. Seemed like this girl went through utter hell in her final hours. In a sad way, I can see why she did it. I couldn't fathom being that age and literally having people constantly attacking you even as you walked home from school.

Court filing reveals taunted teen's anguish in final hours - CNN.com

Maybe we should be locking up parents too.

[rowech]

This case is just beyond words really. This isn't garden, every day just being in high school bullying. It's insane that this was allowed to continue whether it be through the school or the police.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by rowech

This case is just beyond words really. This isn't garden, every day just being in high school bullying.

???

From the article (I didn't read the .pdf's on the three girls, maybe there's more there) I didn't see anything out of the ordinary for HS level bullying.

Threatened, got called out for her sexual behavior with name calling, threatened some more, something got thrown at her I think. No mention of lethal weapons, property damage, etc., and even those aren't all that uncommon in my experience if there's a long-term target.

What did I miss that would be remarkably worse than the standard bullying at this age group.

NOTE: None of those questions have anything to do with blaming the victim, excusing the bullies, or anything else. I'm just curious what rowech saw that struck him as being so much worse than garden variety bullying, whether I missed something(s) or if what I would consider baseline bullying in this age group is more intense than his expectations for "average"

[rowech]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

???

From the article (I didn't read the .pdf's on the three girls, maybe there's more there) I didn't see anything out of the ordinary for HS level bullying.

Threatened, got called out for her sexual behavior with name calling, threatened some more, something got thrown at her I think. No mention of lethal weapons, property damage, etc., and even those aren't all that uncommon in my experience if there's a long-term target.

What did I miss that would be remarkably worse than the standard bullying at this age group.

NOTE: None of those questions have anything to do with blaming the victim, excusing the bullies, or anything else. I'm just curious what rowech saw that struck him as being so much worse than garden variety bullying, whether I missed something(s) or if what I would consider baseline bullying in this age group is more intense than his expectations for "average"

I guess I work in a different district. Things like this happen on a daily basis but are typically a one or two day thing and then they end. Perhaps it's the demographics with which I work compared to this district. Perhaps it's the fact that our district sees kids start in kindergarten with each other and continue at the same schools throughout their lives so that each class of kids forms a really tight knit group of kids. I'm not sure. Perhaps what we see more of is harassment than true bullying.

[bronconick]

I just hate the idea of telling a kid to just deal with it and saying it's part of growing up. No adult would put up with that sort of crap at their job, and I imagine it's flat out illegal in most cases. And, if push comes to shove, you can get a new job (and probably find a lawyer). But teenagers, who actually take stuff like this to heart? Pssh, you'll be fine. Sometimes, it's not the suicides and school shootings that are shocking, it's that they don't happen more. Sure, you get told as a teenager that whatever you're angsting about isn't really that bad, and when you get the advantage of looking 15-20 years back in hindsight, you know they were right, but at the time, you don't always buy it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by rowech

Perhaps what we see more of is harassment than true bullying.

Okay, that makes more sense to me I guess. Thanks for taking the question at face value & answering as such, I was legit confused.

[SportsDino]

The quantity of the bullying is why it isn't 'garden variety'. Even at the worst I can't recall any particular issue lasting more than a few days... this girl is being attacked for weeks.

The girl was being threatened with fights, by girls most likely 2 years older than her. She has multiple outright enemies and no doubt minor bullying coming from a large number of bandwagon bullies.

Not everyone is a crusty old curmudgeon who hates everyone and is invulnerable to peer pressure, is it so hard to believe a 15 year old girl can crack under that pressure?