Normal brownout or electrical issue?

[Eaglesfan27]

Twice in the last month, my upstairs electrical devices have flickered 3 times and then shut off. This includes a big screen TV, PS3/Xbox 360, guest bedroom clock, etc. Normally, I would just assume this was a typical brownout. However, my downstairs appliances are all unaffected by this as far as I can tell (computer was left on this morning downstairs while upstairs everything was off.) Do people think this is something I need to get an electrician to check out, or is this just a normal variant of a brownout? When I check the circuit box, there is no sign of any circuits being flipped.

[RainMaker]

Weird. If only part of the house is going out, I would assume you blew a fuse. It sounds like overloading in one part of the house.

[dwardzala]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Twice in the last month, my upstairs electrical devices have flickered 3 times and then shut off. This includes a big screen TV, PS3/Xbox 360, guest bedroom clock, etc. Normally, I would just assume this was a typical brownout. However, my downstairs appliances are all unaffected by this as far as I can tell (computer was left on this morning downstairs while upstairs everything was off.) Do people think this is something I need to get an electrician to check out, or is this just a normal variant of a brownout? When I check the circuit box, there is no sign of any circuits being flipped.

How do you get the stuff to come back - does it come back on on its own? Or are you flipping breakers?

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by dwardzala

How do you get the stuff to come back - does it come back on on its own? Or are you flipping breakers?

It comes back on by itself. It flickers a few times, goes off for a few seconds, and then turns back on.

[Khorium]

Odds are these devices are drawing current from the same circuit, and having an electrician sort it out will probably cost you a few bucks.

A brownout would be apparent all over the house.

[RainMaker]

That seems like an internal issue and not something caused by the electic company. I would say that it's an issue with overflow, but you said you aren't changing any fuses or turning back on circuit breakers.

You probably have an intermittent problem that is caused by heat from the wires. When it cools down, the problem stops. Can be caused by a lot of things.

Probably best to call out an electrician and have them check out the problem. Typically these things only get worse to the point that the whole circuit doesn't work any longer.

[stevew]

If you put the new TV in that room, it's pretty possible that it is using quite a bit more energy than the previous TV.

I'm not great with electrical numbers, but I dunno if going from 250ish watts(old tv) to 500(new tv) would make a difference?

[CU Tiger]

Get an electrician out ASAP.
While it could be something innocuous, it very well could be an indication of a wiring issue producing a short to ground at certain heat load levels. Not to fear monger, but if it is reaching the point where appliances are shutting down, I would be afraid of imminent fire.

A GOOD electrician should be able top spend 2 hours tops and have a great idea what is going on. If you describe the prroblem and he doesnt immediately grab a multimeter and likely a megger then he is probably not the right guy...

[CU Tiger]

To Steve's point, if the new TV was drawing more current and that was thee problem it would rear its head with a breaker trip. Over current draws are a time vs trip curve. While 1% over rate may take 10 minutes to trip a direct short will produce 100x (for example) rated current and the trip curve will be closer to milliseconds. The trip units in 99% of homes are thermal-magnetic units.

The fact that you are not tripping a breaker and still "losing" electricity tells me the electricity is going SOMEWHERE, and not where you want it. A sneaking hunch says into an overtight wire staple and then draining into the wall sub structure (i.e. stud) this will in time create heat, and heat and wood result in fire.

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Get an electrician out ASAP.
While it could be something innocuous, it very well could be an indication of a wiring issue producing a short to ground at certain heat load levels. Not to fear monger, but if it is reaching the point where appliances are shutting down, I would be afraid of imminent fire.

A GOOD electrician should be able top spend 2 hours tops and have a great idea what is going on. If you describe the prroblem and he doesnt immediately grab a multimeter and likely a megger then he is probably not the right guy...

Just wanted to add a +1 here.

[Silver Owl]

My retired electrician Father-In-Law, says to call an electrician. A defininate possible fire hazard.

[Eaglesfan27]

You have all convinced me. Thanks for the info. Longshot here, but does anyone know a good electrician in the Baton Rouge area? Any suggestions on the best way to find a good reliable electrician?

[RainMaker]

Yelp is probably your best bet.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Yelp is probably your best bet.

Not a single review on any electrician in the area on Yelp. Any other suggestions?

[Eaglesfan27]

Dola -

Wife just talked to her mother to see if she knew any electricians and my mother-in-law reminded her that one of her friend's from childhood has his own electrical contracting company. He's willing to come out tomorrow from his usual base of operation in New Orleans. Since he was a childhood friend, he seems as good an option as anyone else. Checked him out on BBB and he doesn't have any complaints and is licensed by the state as an electrician.

[terpkristin]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Not a single review on any electrician in the area on Yelp. Any other suggestions?

Times like this, I cannot endorse Angie's List highly enough. Yes it costs $ but if I'd consulted it when I had my toilet issues, I'd have ended up saving $ long term.

/tk

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Not a single review on any electrician in the area on Yelp. Any other suggestions?

Angie's List. Costs a subscription fee, but it worked for me when I needed a bunch of different types of work on the house we bought last year. Or ask your friends, family, neighbors, coworkers for some referrals.

[Eaglesfan27]

So, the electrician checked the house out today and he said the house is wired impeccably. He says it has "arc-fault breakers" throughout the house and he feels the house is very safe and ahead of code. He says even with everything turned on upstairs it is only drawing 11.7 amps and the circuit is wired to handle at least 15. He says all of the wiring looks flawless and he cannot find any problems in the house. He did have a multimeter but did not have or use a megger today. I'm not sure if I should be reassured or concerned that he was "stumped." He thinks the one lamp we have which has been flickering, may be producing some kind of feedback into the circuit and causing these two rare events, but he said "that would be very unusual." On the plus side, since he was a friend of Mrs. E's, he was very reasonably priced for a 2 hour service call (particularly considering he had to drive a distance as well.)

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

So, the electrician checked the house out today and he said the house is wired impeccably. He says it has "arc-fault breakers" throughout the house and he feels the house is very safe and ahead of code. He says even with everything turned on upstairs it is only drawing 11.7 amps and the circuit is wired to handle at least 15. He says all of the wiring looks flawless and he cannot find any problems in the house. He did have a multimeter but did not have or use a megger today. I'm not sure if I should be reassured or concerned that he was "stumped." He thinks the one lamp we have which has been flickering, may be producing some kind of feedback into the circuit and causing these two rare events, but he said "that would be very unusual." On the plus side, since he was a friend of Mrs. E's, he was very reasonably priced for a 2 hour service call (particularly considering he had to drive a distance as well.)

Sounds like it is a recent build or updated electrically which is good.
The amp statement is a bit baffling, assuming it is on a 15 AMP breaker a circuit is not supposed to be loaded more than 80% (12A)for any real period of time, which you are below but not by a lot. An 11 A circuit that didnt have a major appliance on it would be very rare in my homes. We typically work in higher end homes and as such use larger panels to accomodate more "diversity" (has an electrical meaning slightly different than the standard one) and load splitting.

Ok, that babble aside.

Here is what I fear maybe happening and why I specifically mentioned a megger.
*NOTE THIS IS NOT A DIAGNOSIS, JUST A HUNCH*

It is possible that inside the walls leading to the upstairs area or in one of thee effected rooms the wire is pinched or otherwise has had its integrity damaged. (Most likely cause would be a support staple being hammered in too tight, one of my goliaths cost me $800 yesterday for this very reason).

Electricity will ALWAYS follow the path of least resistance, so during normal operation that is probably right on down the copper conductor and everything works well. Heat build up in an electrical circuit is an additive event and with a constant load the temperature of the conductors will slowly rise over time. As temp rises metal expands, nothing new here. Also as temp rises the insulation value of the jacket degrades, (for this reason every wire carries a temp rating, above this rating you can actually be shocked touching an insulated wire) After a while the constant load builds up heat, the wire expands slightly and an easier flow path is developed (through that staple into the wooden studs of the house for example).

This is where the megger comes in, in my opinion.
The whole purpose of a megger is to induce current into a circuit to see if the integrity of the conductors breaks down at a controlled and known value. This would allow you to definitively tell if it is a wiring issue.

All that said, a much more likely scenario is the breaker itself is actually crapping our on you, especially if all this is on on circuit. What scared me initially was that you had (I thought) multiple circuits fading out at the same time. Since wires are routed in bundles most often, it is much more likely that 2 or 3 wires got pinched at a single point (even the holes where the wires go through the studs is a possible and frequent location) than 2 or 3 breakers failing simultaneously. If it is all on one breaker, this goes out the window.

Now onto another question said electrician is he a residential, commercial or industrial guy? If their ad says all three, they are either A) very small B) Resi and want to be bigger C) lieing...

The reason I ask is while most start in resi and move out, many guys now have lived in the commercial world all their lives, and while electron flow is the same, that is about it. Commercial 3 phase has a true neutral to balance the uneven load, plus the conductors are almost always encased in a metal conduit and there is very little instance of conductor damage. In a house the cable is just double jacketed (most have seen this but it is 2 jacketed cables and a 3rd unjacketed cable all encased inside an outer jacket) Conductor damage issues are much more common in resi applications.

[Eaglesfan27]

Thanks for the thoughtful response, CU Tiger.

Yes, it is a recent build - the house was built in 2004.

That 11.7 (or maybe he said 11.1) was with everything on - the PS3, the Xbox 360, the sound system, fans, lights, Big screen TV, computer, etc. I never have all of the stuff on that he turned on during the test. Heck, I never go into the guest bedroom but he turned everything on in there as well since the power outages have also involved that room.

He is a guy who worked for a bigger company for several years and states he did primarily residential during that time. He started his own company just over a year ago. He says a megger is very expensive and it is one of the things he is saving up for, but he hasn't had an opportunity to buy one yet. He also said, it wouldn't have helped him in my situation.

Wife was the one that watched him, (I got home from work just as he was finishing up - he was at the house for about 2 hours) but he opened up every outlet in the house, every light switch in the house and checked the wiring of each. He also checked wiring in the attic that my wife didn't see and checked stuff in each circuit breaker. She felt he was very through, but she may be a bit biased.

[CU Tiger]

I am not trying to comment on the guys competency, I cant assess that but I do want to respond to two points just to give you information you may not have.

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

He says a megger is very expensive and it is one of the things he is saving up for, but he hasn't had an opportunity to buy one yet. He also said, it wouldn't have helped him in my situation.

- A megger is not a cheap tool he is right, but there is no other tool that replaces it functionality.
- A cheap one would be better than none, and a cheap one can be had for well less than <$500. To me it is essential.
- The bolded part is concerning however. I started to explain above but realize now I didnt finish. Often at low load/heat levels a conductor will maintain full integrity, however as time, temperature and current increase this integrity will break down and an alternate path to ground will develop. In you case since the wires are mostly in the wall behind drywall and you dont want to rip your walls open on a goose hunt, inducing heat is difficult if not impossible. Option two would be to fully load and wait it out, time is money and costly and how much time is needed? For an intermittent problem you could have a guy in a house for days. So the final piece of the equation is current. In your case we could induce 10 AMPS while testing both sides and all should be good (heck he pulled 11) then step up to 15 then 20 etc.at 25-30A I would be convinced that we had reached the threshold, where above we could risk damaging the conductors. So if I couldnt find a problem that is right where I would go.

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

but he opened up every outlet in the house, every light switch in the house and checked the wiring of each. He also checked wiring in the attic that my wife didn't see and checked stuff in each circuit breaker. She felt he was very through, but she may be a bit biased.

The only thing he could see is the wiring in the walls....which is where it is supported by staples and could be damaged.

Again, Id bet the most likely culprit is the breaker especially if it is one circuit.

Question how long do these brownout periods last?
Is it all the upstairs power?
Can you flip a single breaker and simulate the outage? (IE is it all on one circuit?)

[Eaglesfan27]

Thanks for the thoughts. I've already decided we'll go with a different electrician if this problem reoccurs.

There have only been 2 "brownouts." They both lasted a matter of seconds. I saw a lamp dim down (which it does a lot - every day in fact), then it dimmed lower and the TV, PS3, Surround system, everything in the media room and guest bedroom turned off. It then turned back on, turned off, turned back on, and turned off and it stayed off for a few seconds. After it stayed off for a few seconds, it turned back on (lamp and fan did other things I had to press their power button) without me flipping any breakers. Entire episode lasts about 10 seconds or less each time it happened. Both times, those were the only rooms affected. I think I can duplicate it by flipping one breaker, but I'm not 100% sure as I've never tried. I can try a little bit later this morning.

[Eaglesfan27]

The lamp that I suspected was the problem has completely stopped working, so it is now out of the picture. It gave us 8 or 9 good years IIRC. Hopefully, that will be the end of my electrical issues upstairs.