FOF4 and those dang ties

Bonegavel · 09-13-2003, 05:01 PM

I know this has been brought up many times, but. I'm in my second season as the Eagles. Without touching a thing, I won the Super Bowl in the first season (i can accept that

). Now, I take over resigning a bunch of my players and I handle the draft. I give control back to the Scouts for the season, and the frist 2 regular season games are tied. Bleck. 0-0-2. Ugly, ugly, ugly.

Bonegavel · 09-13-2003, 05:02 PM

dola,

FWIW, I'm working with the latest patch 4.0c.

Bonegavel · 09-13-2003, 05:06 PM

double dola,

Actually, I believe that this little feature (the ties) may hint to Jim's next game. He may have accidentally slipped in some Hockey code in FOF4.

Godzilla Blitz · 09-13-2003, 05:21 PM

There definitely are more ties than in the NFL, but it hasn't been out of hand for me. I've had the following:

2002- 3 games tied
2003- 3 games tied
2004- 3 games tied
2005- 3 games tied
2006- 1 game tied

I actually kind of like it. Seems to create a little less chance that tiebreakers are needed to determine playoff teams.

One thing that I have seen that is frustrating is an opponent passing inside my 15-yard line in overtime. I picked it off, and the game ended in a tie. Not that I'm complaining, but it seemed highly unrealistic.

sabotai · 09-13-2003, 06:24 PM

I also noticed that if you play with an OPU, for awhile, there will be a lot of ties.

"One thing that I have seen that is frustrating is an opponent passing inside my 15-yard line in overtime. I picked it off, and the game ended in a tie. Not that I'm complaining, but it seemed highly unrealistic."

I wonder if gameplan AI falls into one of the reasons there are a lot of ties. This would never happen and there'd have been a FG to win it. 1 less tie there.

In my latest FOF4 dynasty, I am recording all game logs. Perhaps I'll see if this sort of thing happens in these tie games.

(Just checked)

In the one preseason tie, I saw exactly this. New Orleans was at the Indianapolis 15, and tried a pass. The QB scrambled. Another pass, for 3 yards. A run. On 3rd down, Brooks was sacked and fumbled it. (Later, IND missed a 37 yard FG). And that was the game.

Bonegavel · 09-13-2003, 06:55 PM

Jesus. Reading Godz post, I checked out my own box scores and here is an excerpt from OT (i'm philadelphia)

Quote:

2-07-WAS27 (02:36) PHI 5 McNabb pass completed to 22 Staley for 5 yards.
Tackled by WAS 91 Carter.

3-02-WAS22 (01:51) PHI 5 McNabb pass completed to 87 Pinkston for 7 yards (OOB).
Tackled by WAS 56 Arrington, assisted by WAS 57 Jones.
--
1-10-WAS15 (01:12) PHI 5 McNabb pass fell incomplete, intended for 88 Booker.
WAS 97 Wynn hurried the quarterback into a bad throw.

2-10-WAS15 (01:03) PHI 5 McNabb pass was intercepted by WAS 98 Armstead in the end zone. Touchback.

WTF?

Ben E Lou · 09-13-2003, 06:57 PM

Looks like it is time to send an e-mail to Jim.

Godzilla Blitz · 09-13-2003, 09:30 PM

I have been playing an FOF career and have watched closely and logged every game now for about five years. The overtime pass when deep in an opponent's territory in overtime is only one of a handful of extremely dubious AI decisions I have seen.

Watch the AI logic at the end of the first half of games and you'll see some inane offensive play calling regularly, as well as absurd time-out calling by defenses. Happens consistently. The one that gets me every time is the very short pass from deep in your own end of the field when there are less than 15 seconds left in the half.

Penalties also seem to bring out the worst in the AI as well. In a recent game I ran a kickoff back to the 45-yard line, but the kicking team was offside. We made them rekick. I can understand this decision under certain rare circumstances, but none of them applied in this particular situation. We prompltly ran the kickoff out to the 37-yard line. Sigh. I also see defenses decline penalties that are clearly to their advantage to take. A recent example: we run for 4 yards on first down from within our own 10-yard line, but are offsides. The defense's choice was either 2nd and 6, or 1st and 13 (putting the ball on the two- or three-yard line, if I remember correctly). They declined the penalty. Yikes.

All these things tend to even out in the end, as the human AI, despite fiddling with game plans up the wazoo, still makes equally crazy decisions. While none of these things are game breakers, the game clearly needs some love with regards to AI decision making and play calling.

One thing I wonder about, though, is that we, as gamers, expect the AI to behave logically in all game situations, and get upset when it makes unbelievably stupid calls, but stupid calls abound in real life. Look at St. Louis' play calling late in last week's game (when they went for it on 4th and long twice while within field goal range) and you'd see something that, if it happened in FOF, would have me up in arms.

Having said that, there are things that occur consistently in FOF now that never happen in real life.

Godzilla Blitz · 09-13-2003, 09:36 PM

Dola...

The other thing that really feels unrealistic is the frequency and severity of 4th quarter comebacks. Whatever is controlling the scoring in the 4th quarter is tweaked a bit too high, IMHO.

Not that I have any interest in doing it, but I bet if you compared win probabilities for teams leading going into the 4th quarter of NFL games, and compared that to win probabilities for teams leading going into the 4th quarter of FOF4, you'd see a significantly greater number of teams failing to hold 4th quarter leads in FOF4.

Godzilla Blitz · 09-13-2003, 09:43 PM

(My first ever triple dola!)

Quote:

Originally posted by sabotai
I also noticed that if you play with an OPU, for awhile, there will be a lot of ties.

Good point. This makes sense. With OPU's, scoring is relatively low in the early years, and teams start out relatively equal in terms of talent. Fewer points scored in a game should increase the likelihood that two teams will end up tied. Also, equal teams should have point totals close to each other more often than teams with large talent differentials. Both of these things should result in more ties at first.

Bonegavel · 09-13-2003, 09:55 PM

for the record, I did not use an OPU. Actually, I never have and I always notice that there are about 3-5 ties per season. A bit picky on my part, i realise, but ties in the NFL are like the Bengals having a good season; extremely rare.

sabotai · 09-13-2003, 10:07 PM

"(My first ever triple dola!)"

That's just a double dola, GB.

sabotai · 09-13-2003, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godzilla Blitz
Dola...

The other thing that really feels unrealistic is the frequency and severity of 4th quarter comebacks. Whatever is controlling the scoring in the 4th quarter is tweaked a bit too high, IMHO.

Not that I have any interest in doing it, but I bet if you compared win probabilities for teams leading going into the 4th quarter of NFL games, and compared that to win probabilities for teams leading going into the 4th quarter of FOF4, you'd see a significantly greater number of teams failing to hold 4th quarter leads in FOF4.

I would wager this is another AI problem.

Godzilla Blitz · 09-13-2003, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sabotai
I would wager this is another AI problem.

I have been wondering about that. I have been wondering if might involve the routines the AI uses in selecting its game plans on defense, and/or perhaps something to do with fatigue/player substitution. Or perhaps the "2-minute" ratings of quarterbacks influence play too much late in the fourth quarter?

I did notice in the sixth week of my latest season that somehow my AI defensive game plan settings were at or near "100% aggressive defense against the run" for most game situations (not only fourth quarter). To be honest, I don't know exactly when I went through all the defensive screens and hit "recommend" (it was probably in the preseason), or even if did that at all, but in any case, I am positive that I did not set them that way, and was surprised to see them that way. I have trouble understanding how that is a good move: leading in the fourth quarter and keying heavily against the run 100% of the time? Maybe this is a bug, or maybe I'm just imagining things, or maybe this is unrelated, but it sure struck me as kind of strange.

Wasn't this the same way in FOF2001, though? I seem to remember feeling the same way when playing with that game too.

And now that you point it out, it was only a "double dola", wasn't it. Actually, now that I think of it, I've got some "dolas to the 20th degree" over in my Vikings dynasty.

sabotai · 09-14-2003, 12:39 AM

Are you sure you wer elooking at your defensive game plan for when you have the lead?

I have the same settings you do, but it's under my "Defensive Game Plan - Fourth Quarter Deficit".

Also, if yo udo just hit the "Recommend" button, you should do it every week. The AI chnages your game plan (defensive) dependant on your opponent. (Offensive is always the same)

While we're talking about bad AI, I just simmed a week in my dynasty and noticed something strange. In the PHI-TEN game, the Eagles scored a TD in the 3rd quarter to take the 12-7 lead. Did they kick the XP to make it 13-7? No, they went for 2. This makes it look like the AI relies on "the chart" WAY too much and before the 4th quarter. That's just a bad move. Even more so considering Tennessee kicked two FG's to win 13-12.

Godzilla Blitz · 09-14-2003, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sabotai
Are you sure you wer elooking at your defensive game plan for when you have the lead?

I have the same settings you do, but it's under my "Defensive Game Plan - Fourth Quarter Deficit".

Also, if yo udo just hit the "Recommend" button, you should do it every week. The AI chnages your game plan (defensive) dependant on your opponent. (Offensive is always the same)

I changed them as I went along, so I don't remember the exact screens, but there were quite a few of them that were set to 100%, and some of them just didn't make sense. The overall feeling I got was that my team was much too concerned with the run than would have made sense against any NFL team, not just the particular opponent it was trying to stop when I hit recommend earlier in the year (I'm guessing that they were settings that were left over from early in the year, maybe even in the preseason). I'm sure this contributed to the high number of 4th quarter points scored against me in the first half of the season. I now go in and do stuff myself, so this problem hasn't arisen again.

The point I was trying to make, though, was not so much how the game plan screens function for the human player but more to wonder aloud if the AI logic that is setting the defensive game plans for all teams is not doing such a good job with its fourth quarter settings in general, with the cause possibly being that it focuses on the run too much, and leaves itself open to the pass. Another possibility could be it goes into a prevent defense (dime perhaps) too quickly, which would likely cause similar problems. All this is pretty much wild speculation, though, as I don't think there is any way for the human player to look at CPU AI settings for CPU teams. Our only window on this process is what the recommend button gives us.

Quote:

Originally posted by sabotai
While we're talking about bad AI, I just simmed a week in my dynasty and noticed something strange. In the PHI-TEN game, the Eagles scored a TD in the 3rd quarter to take the 12-7 lead. Did they kick the XP to make it 13-7? No, they went for 2. This makes it look like the AI relies on "the chart" WAY too much and before the 4th quarter. That's just a bad move. Even more so considering Tennessee kicked two FG's to win 13-12.

Depending on the time left in the third quarter and the game situation (weather, opponent kicker, team injuries, etc.), I might find myself agreeing with the call to go for two on this one. I guess I would put this one in the category of a dubious call, but not an unacceptably bad one. The game should have dubious calls, as the real NFL is full of them. The game should not consistently make calls for all teams (e.g., passing deep in enemy territory in OT, passing short from deep in your own end with only a couple of seconds left in the half, calling a defensive timeout when the offense gets a first down at its 40-yard line with 30 seconds left in the half) that make no sense whatsoever, or stray so far from the norm that they should only occur extremely rarely.

In the case of the last second passes before halftime, I can tell that the offense is trying to get into field goal range by aggressively throwing the ball, but right now there doesn't seem to be a point when the offense figures out that a 5-yard pass from its 20-yard line with 10 seconds left in the half is not going to get it into field goal range: it doesn't seem to have a logical "give-up" point once it decides to go for the field goal. The defensive timeout thing is another case. The defense is obviously trying to force the offense to punt late in the half. This makes sense, but there needs to be a more accurate evaluation of when the defense has the offense in a hole and can accomplish this, and when the timeout only serves to give the offense more time to get in field goal range.

sabotai · 09-14-2003, 01:29 PM

On the issue of the short pass at the half, perhaps what happens is that the receviers go deep, no one's open and the QB just dumps it off to his "safe" route.

As for the 2pt call, I'd agree if I simmed a whole season and found this one case, but so far it's been 1 week. We'll see if this sort of thing happens week to week.

09-13-2003, 05:02 PM	#2
Bonegavel Awaiting Further Instructions... Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Macungie, PA	dola, FWIW, I'm working with the latest patch 4.0c. __________________

09-13-2003, 05:06 PM	#3
Bonegavel Awaiting Further Instructions... Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Macungie, PA	double dola, Actually, I believe that this little feature (the ties) may hint to Jim's next game. He may have accidentally slipped in some Hockey code in FOF4. __________________

09-13-2003, 05:21 PM	#4
Godzilla Blitz College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	There definitely are more ties than in the NFL, but it hasn't been out of hand for me. I've had the following: 2002- 3 games tied 2003- 3 games tied 2004- 3 games tied 2005- 3 games tied 2006- 1 game tied I actually kind of like it. Seems to create a little less chance that tiebreakers are needed to determine playoff teams. One thing that I have seen that is frustrating is an opponent passing inside my 15-yard line in overtime. I picked it off, and the game ended in a tie. Not that I'm complaining, but it seemed highly unrealistic. __________________ Current Blog Projects: Final Fantasy: Lost in Japanese Kaboom Review

09-13-2003, 06:57 PM	#7
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	Looks like it is time to send an e-mail to Jim. __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

09-13-2003, 09:30 PM	#8
Godzilla Blitz College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	I have been playing an FOF career and have watched closely and logged every game now for about five years. The overtime pass when deep in an opponent's territory in overtime is only one of a handful of extremely dubious AI decisions I have seen. Watch the AI logic at the end of the first half of games and you'll see some inane offensive play calling regularly, as well as absurd time-out calling by defenses. Happens consistently. The one that gets me every time is the very short pass from deep in your own end of the field when there are less than 15 seconds left in the half. Penalties also seem to bring out the worst in the AI as well. In a recent game I ran a kickoff back to the 45-yard line, but the kicking team was offside. We made them rekick. I can understand this decision under certain rare circumstances, but none of them applied in this particular situation. We prompltly ran the kickoff out to the 37-yard line. Sigh. I also see defenses decline penalties that are clearly to their advantage to take. A recent example: we run for 4 yards on first down from within our own 10-yard line, but are offsides. The defense's choice was either 2nd and 6, or 1st and 13 (putting the ball on the two- or three-yard line, if I remember correctly). They declined the penalty. Yikes. All these things tend to even out in the end, as the human AI, despite fiddling with game plans up the wazoo, still makes equally crazy decisions. While none of these things are game breakers, the game clearly needs some love with regards to AI decision making and play calling. One thing I wonder about, though, is that we, as gamers, expect the AI to behave logically in all game situations, and get upset when it makes unbelievably stupid calls, but stupid calls abound in real life. Look at St. Louis' play calling late in last week's game (when they went for it on 4th and long twice while within field goal range) and you'd see something that, if it happened in FOF, would have me up in arms. Having said that, there are things that occur consistently in FOF now that never happen in real life. __________________ Current Blog Projects: Final Fantasy: Lost in Japanese Kaboom Review Last edited by Godzilla Blitz : 09-13-2003 at 09:53 PM.

09-13-2003, 06:24 PM	#5
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	I also noticed that if you play with an OPU, for awhile, there will be a lot of ties. "One thing that I have seen that is frustrating is an opponent passing inside my 15-yard line in overtime. I picked it off, and the game ended in a tie. Not that I'm complaining, but it seemed highly unrealistic." I wonder if gameplan AI falls into one of the reasons there are a lot of ties. This would never happen and there'd have been a FG to win it. 1 less tie there. In my latest FOF4 dynasty, I am recording all game logs. Perhaps I'll see if this sort of thing happens in these tie games. (Just checked) In the one preseason tie, I saw exactly this. New Orleans was at the Indianapolis 15, and tried a pass. The QB scrambled. Another pass, for 3 yards. A run. On 3rd down, Brooks was sacked and fumbled it. (Later, IND missed a 37 yard FG). And that was the game.

09-13-2003, 09:36 PM	#9
Godzilla Blitz College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	Dola... The other thing that really feels unrealistic is the frequency and severity of 4th quarter comebacks. Whatever is controlling the scoring in the 4th quarter is tweaked a bit too high, IMHO. Not that I have any interest in doing it, but I bet if you compared win probabilities for teams leading going into the 4th quarter of NFL games, and compared that to win probabilities for teams leading going into the 4th quarter of FOF4, you'd see a significantly greater number of teams failing to hold 4th quarter leads in FOF4. __________________ Current Blog Projects: Final Fantasy: Lost in Japanese Kaboom Review

09-13-2003, 09:55 PM	#11
Bonegavel Awaiting Further Instructions... Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Macungie, PA	for the record, I did not use an OPU. Actually, I never have and I always notice that there are about 3-5 ties per season. A bit picky on my part, i realise, but ties in the NFL are like the Bengals having a good season; extremely rare. __________________

09-13-2003, 10:07 PM	#12
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	"(My first ever triple dola!)" That's just a double dola, GB.

09-14-2003, 12:39 AM	#15
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	Are you sure you wer elooking at your defensive game plan for when you have the lead? I have the same settings you do, but it's under my "Defensive Game Plan - Fourth Quarter Deficit". Also, if yo udo just hit the "Recommend" button, you should do it every week. The AI chnages your game plan (defensive) dependant on your opponent. (Offensive is always the same) While we're talking about bad AI, I just simmed a week in my dynasty and noticed something strange. In the PHI-TEN game, the Eagles scored a TD in the 3rd quarter to take the 12-7 lead. Did they kick the XP to make it 13-7? No, they went for 2. This makes it look like the AI relies on "the chart" WAY too much and before the 4th quarter. That's just a bad move. Even more so considering Tennessee kicked two FG's to win 13-12. Last edited by sabotai : 09-14-2003 at 12:40 AM.

09-14-2003, 01:29 PM	#17
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	On the issue of the short pass at the half, perhaps what happens is that the receviers go deep, no one's open and the QB just dumps it off to his "safe" route. As for the 2pt call, I'd agree if I simmed a whole season and found this one case, but so far it's been 1 week. We'll see if this sort of thing happens week to week.

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