Teacher merit pay

[AENeuman]

For me the question comes down to: Is there an equitable way measure the types of knowledge and skills that will increase a students future success (in life, next grade, college, etc)?

In my opinion the worst case scenario of merit pay would be a purely test driven model. The result wold be a total loss of non-test knowledge/skills and a mass exodus of good teachers/admin in under performing schools

[albionmoonlight]

In before the thread degeneration.

Basically, it would be great if we could pay/hire/retain/promote teachers based on merit. But I have yet to think of/hear about a system that would not be worked horribly and end up with something worse than what we have.

Part of it is that we don't really all seem to agree much on what things we should prioritize in terms of teaching/learning. And, of course, even if we did, how do we measure that?

[molson]

It's hard to quantify the merit of almost anybody's job performance. Why is it only in education that we need to have an attempt at some kind of exact number to determine how good they are?

But government lawyers, for example, get hired and fired all the time based on their merit, as perceived by their supervisors.

Sure, teachers don't have as much of a "work product", and they're alone with the kids most of the time, but you can still review the progress of the students, sit-in on classes on occasion (as legal supervisors do with lawyers in court), etc.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

In my opinion the worst case scenario of merit pay would be a purely test driven model.

I'd say the absolute worst would be a model that relied on things like grades, which lead to grade inflation & eventually outright corruption. Then again, as we've just seen first hand here in Georgia, allowing teachers to be a part of the testing process also leads to blatant corruption.

The result wold be a total loss of non-test knowledge/skills

If you're testing the appropriate things, I have no problem with that whatsoever. For all the whining that we hear about "teaching to the test", I fail to see the slightest problem with that if the tests & the curriculum line up properly.

[Marc Vaughan]

Teacher merit pay imho is a VERY stupid thing to do - simply put the grades a kid gets can often be beyond a teachers influence - some kids are just thick, while some have very poor home environments both of which can have a negative effect upon the childs grades.

Should we really discourage teachers from joining under-performing schools by putting in a system where teachers are penalised for a childs poor grades.

A better system imho is one which uses common sense and peer reviews or some sort - taking into account past performances of the children and schools in question.

(personally I believe that the vast majority of countries in the world under pay teachers horribly considering they're hugely influential on the future of mankind ... end rant )

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

A better system imho is one which uses common sense and peer reviews or some sort

There is far too little common sense in most school systems for that to work and I've seen even less reason to trust education "peers" to review their work.

Hell, I trust politicians & doctors to self-regulate more than I trust the education cabal.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If you're testing the appropriate things, I have no problem with that whatsoever. For all the whining that we hear about "teaching to the test", I fail to see the slightest problem with that if the tests & the curriculum line up properly.

I think harder than the nearly impossible task of creating a test that truly does contain all the "appropriate things" is creating a test where a teacher can honestly conclude, "you failed this test therefore you clearly do not know the concepts/skills I taught you this year."

All too often failing a test merely says, you cannot take test or your learning does not fit with my teaching and/or classroom environment

[cougarfreak]

I have been a teacher for 16 years. You will never convince me you can find out a way to measure if I'm better/worse than other teachers. We don't teach the same kids, and we don't have the same kids from year to year. Parents have as much, or more of an influence over a students success than I do. How about we start cutting the pay of crappy parents?

[panerd]

I am a teacher and I am a huge supporter of merit pay. I have hit year 15 and slowly realize from year to year that my pay is based on one thing only: living and working another year. I am glad my father taught me work ethic and that I have some pride because nothing about this job (especially with the teacher union standing behind you) causes anyone to work hard except for intrinsic motivation.

The idea that they can't determine a way to pay teachers is a load of crap. My dad was an engineer and they figured out a way to give raises and bonuses (and actually fire people) in his job. That is the supervisor's job. The problem is that all of the supervisors are former teachers and are used to the system where they avoid having to make "difficult" decisions.

I agree that test scores and student data shouldn't be the only factor and also could easily be manipulated. But the "real world" has gotten this done for a long time it is time for the unionized jobs to accept that it can happen here as well.

[BishopMVP]

You can test students at the beginning and end of the year to see if there are any real outliers. I wouldn't want to get into the middle of the pack having pay affected by natural fluctuations and the quality of students/parents, but you can see if there are any horrible laggards or superb people at the other end.

Eliminating tenure would be one huge thing. I am one of the few non-teachers who coach at my HS, so I only hear stuff secondhand, but it's always the newest teachers who are threatened with or actually laid off when budget cuts get bad enough - and often these are some of the most energetic and well liked among the teachers. And there are at least 3-4 that are known dead weight and have been since my older sister went through 12 years ago that can't be touched (short of committing a misdemeanor on campus or a felony off it) because of union rules.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Eliminating tenure would be one huge thing. I am one of the few non-teachers who coach at my HS, so I only hear stuff secondhand, but it's always the newest teachers who are threatened with or actually laid off when budget cuts get bad enough - and often these are some of the most energetic and well liked among the teachers.

This reminds me of how different things work from state to state.

There's no such thing as tenure (that I'm aware of) for teachers below the college/university level in Georgia and generally speaking non-teachers are not allowed to coach at the HS level here with the exception of a strictly limited & regulated number of volunteer "lay coaches".

[I. J. Reilly]

I haven’t paid much attention to any of the plans that are out there for implementing merit pay. How much variation are we talking about? Is the top performing teacher going to be making twice as much as the lowest rated teacher?

Also, as far as testing goes it should only be part of the equation and it should probably be spread over multiple years. I would think that something like a rolling 5 year average of the students test scores would be a pretty good measure of a teacher.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

"you failed this test therefore you clearly do not know the concepts/skills I taught you this year."

I have no problem with declaring failure as "you are currently unable to demonstrate your ability/knowledge of subject X". If it can't be demonstrated on demand, then it is of limited value at best & closer to no value. Most of us operate under those same standards everyday, I don't believe teachers nor students deserve any major exemption from the requirement to perform.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I have no problem with declaring failure as "you are currently unable to demonstrate your ability/knowledge of subject X". If it can't be demonstrated on demand, then it is of limited value at best & closer to no value. Most of us operate under those same standards everyday, I don't believe teachers nor students deserve any major exemption from the requirement to perform.

Though I think standardized testing is crap, I do agree with Jon here on tests overall. Crap, after school I have taken multiple tests for a CDL or simply to drive with a certain company, taken tests to become a real estate agent, taken tests to get higher soccer coaching licenses. It's pretty important in figuring out if someone knows what they need to know.

[JPhillips]

As a college prof I much prefer a merit system to yearly raises.

However, one of the problems with secondary merit pay is basing things on immediate payback. A really good teacher gives you things to think about years later.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I have no problem with declaring failure as "you are currently unable to demonstrate your ability/knowledge of subject X". If it can't be demonstrated on demand, then it is of limited value at best & closer to no value. Most of us operate under those same standards everyday, I don't believe teachers nor students deserve any major exemption from the requirement to perform.

Students should absolutely have to demonstrate knowledge to move on. My question is, what is the most equitable way for them to demonstrate this knowledge? The standard test model we have now does not work on both its ability to ask the best questions and its ability to get the best answers out of a student.

I say would most professionals are judged on their ability to process, interpret and communicate changing information, and not necessarily their ability to demonstrate the previous knowledge of their filed.

[cougarfreak]

I'd be for the standardized test thing......if student's promotion is tied to it as well. In KY, students are not held accountable for standardized tests. I'd be for eliminating teacher tenure as well, wouldn't bother me one bit.

[Mac Howard]

Very few professions can be accurately measured but very few escape measurement of some sort. We all know as students that the quality of teachers can vary considerably - in my final school years I had an excellent maths teacher, an ok physics teacher and a very poor chemistry teacher and I would have no trouble justifying those opinions with reasoned explanations. That teachers can be assessed is certainly true, we need to find the best way to do it.

Static tests - testing students once and looking at the results - clearly have problems with the qualities of students etc. But dynamic testing - testing students prior to the start of a teaching period (by which I mean a term, year etc not an hour) and then at the end and comparing the results and looking for the improvement in student performance - eliminates the problems of student and school levels. I would have thought tests developed along these lines might solve some of the problems and probably come up with something better than the systems most other professions have to tolerate.

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

Very few professions can be accurately measured but very few escape measurement of some sort. We all know as students that the quality of teachers can vary considerably - in my final school years I had an excellent maths teacher, an ok physics teacher and a very poor chemistry teacher and I would have no trouble justifying those opinions with reasoned explanations. That teachers can be assessed is certainly true, we need to find the best way to do it.

Static tests - testing students once and looking at the results - clearly have problems with the qualities of students etc. But dynamic testing - testing students prior to the start of a teaching period (by which I mean a term, year etc not an hour) and then at the end and comparing the results and looking for the improvement in student performance - eliminates the problems of student and school levels. I would have thought tests developed along these lines might solve some of the problems and probably come up with something better than the systems most other professions have to tolerate.

As long as students are held accountable for them too. There has to be incentive for them, or you won't get a solid effort from X % of them. Especially at the end of a year.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by rowech

Eliminate school sponsored sports.

We're not prepared to deal with the surge in dropout rate nor the psychological impact of a sudden leap in unemployment. We'd end up with higher quality students that remained & improve the schools in that sense without a doubt, but I can't see that being realistic because of the unintended consequences.

all schools in areas where it's common sense would need to have air conditioning

I was unaware that there was a single school in at least 49 states that doesn't have AC already.

Eliminate the need for schools to keep parents/community happy in an effort to secure funding.

As long as the state takes money for schools at gunpoint, that's going to be a factor unless you're in a really secure dictatorship.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I have no problem with declaring failure as "you are currently unable to demonstrate your ability/knowledge of subject X". If it can't be demonstrated on demand, then it is of limited value at best & closer to no value. Most of us operate under those same standards everyday, I don't believe teachers nor students deserve any major exemption from the requirement to perform.

Then teachers will push even more to try and over quality students for special education. Any child who tests low and would affect their firing/pay would be problematic for them. Then again, maybe they would be more motivated to actually help that student improve.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

I'd be for the standardized test thing......if student's promotion is tied to it as well. In KY, students are not held accountable for standardized tests. I'd be for eliminating teacher tenure as well, wouldn't bother me one bit.

Again, an issue with this is that teachers will push heavily for special education or 504 accommodations on a large number of students that may hurt their class scores. As it is, with no child left behind, schools already often push for over qualification to get accommodations for standardized testing.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

We're not prepared to deal with the surge in dropout rate nor the psychological impact of a sudden leap in unemployment. We'd end up with higher quality students that remained & improve the schools in that sense without a doubt, but I can't see that being realistic because of the unintended consequences.



I was unaware that there was a single school in at least 49 states that doesn't have AC already.



As long as the state takes money for schools at gunpoint, that's going to be a factor unless you're in a really secure dictatorship.

Plenty of schools in Ohio without Air. My wife works in a building built in 1940.

I don't know what systems are like in other states for getting money. Ohio's system is comical at best. It's been declared unconstituional by the state three times in the last 20 years yet nobody has changed anything. It's like the decisions don't mean anything. It's a patchwork of crap where the districts get money on property taxes and then money from the state to supplement. Crappy districts, that have no property, get poorer and the cycle just continues. Rich districts, that have plenty of property, get richer and the cycle continues.

I don't believe in taking away to give. If a rich community supports their schools to that kind of degree then no state should ever come in and play robin hood like they try to. All schools should be funded to a certain level through a flat state sales tax or income tax. The money then goes out a certain amount per student. Districts that want more can pass more. Yes, the rich districts will still be ahead...and you know...that's fine...and probably good. But the system Ohio has now sucks.

Like I said...it might be like that everywhere and I'm just not aware.

[stevew]

my wife is a teacher and my parents were both teachers. And teacher merit pay is a horrible idea. Unless merit pay means "demonstrate competency or you don't get your built in raise each year."

no AC at the HS I went to fwiw.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by stevew

no AC at the HS I went to fwiw.

You mean now, or then?

Just to clarify, I meant it wasn't at some of the schools where I grew up either, but was added in the 25+ years since.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by rowech

4. Discipline must be improved...period. Chronic behavior problems must be considered worse than big problems. Too many times I see an average kid mess up once in a big way and get suspended for 10 days while a kid who is a constant problem, every day, can continue to take away time, resources, etc. from the teacher and school. These kids are bigger problems than people want to believe.

This is easier said than done in regards to the special education population which often is a large portion of those kids with problem behaviors. First, there often is a complete lack of programs and services for the child with the problem behavior. And regardless of that behavior it is still the districts legal obligation to educate that student. Second, by law we have to place children in the least restrictive environment that would be most appropriate. Often it might be a choice between that regular class or a severe ED class which would not be appropriate. Also, if a child is in special education, often punishments are limited (and rightfully so) due to manifest determination in which the problem behavior is a result of their disability.

That said, in regards to just some conduct disorder type kids, I agree with you although unfortunately it's still our legal responsibility to educate them and like I said, there often is just a lack of programs to properly handle the situation.

[Scoobz0202]

FWIW, the HS I graduated from didn't have AC and still doesn't.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by rowech

And they do that because of $$$.


If people are going to discuss merit pay, there is only one way to approach it and that is to answer the question of, "Did this child improve by one year of education while in this teacher's class." What does that mean?

Well, if I teach 4th grade and I recieve a student who is at a 3.2 level (meaning 3rd grade 2nd month) then it is my job, when this student is tested at the end of the year, to make sure that student tests at a 4.2 level. Likewise, if I receive a student who is 2.2, almost a full grade behind, it should be my job to get them to a 3.2...not a 4.0 which is how people want to measure it currently. Doesn't fly.

Good teachers will be able to get those students to get a year's worth of growth and in my opinion they should be compensated accordingly based upon how many of their students do earn a full year of growth.

What's funny is people think the low level kids would be the problem...nope...the high level kids would be. If I teach 4th grade and I have a superstar kid who comes in at a 5.11 level, how am I going to be able to give this kid the individual instruction he/she will need to get them to a 6.11 level. It'll be almost impossible for me to pull that off unless our school has a group of 5-10 at that level that we can pull out.

This is true and one of my professors last year actually was working to create a program evaluation system proposal for California schools that would track this type of data. This would be a solid way to track student improvement and contribute to an evaluation of teacher performance. Right now though, most data tracking system are simply by scores and do a poor job of measuring teacher quality.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You mean now, or then?

Just to clarify, I meant it wasn't at some of the schools where I grew up either, but was added in the 25+ years since.

they may have added it in a recent renovation. Kids these days are generally a bunch of vags.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by rowech

I'm fine with educating kids through 8th grade because every kid needs it. At high school level...cya.

I'd prefer to see a system where there are both more traditional high schools and high schools more geared towards learning a trade. I think this would help the situation as simply put school is not for everyone and a portion of the kids who are problems would be less so if in that type of environment.

[molson]

Great points, rowech - how can people like you get into administration and make some decisions?

[rowech]

Originally Posted by molson

Great points, rowech - how can people like you get into administration and make some decisions?

I have five more classes to take and I'd have my administrator's certificate. That said, I can't see it being worth the move. You're fighting windmills trying to do most of these things. Too many people are happy with the way they are and too many people at the state and federal levels making decisions who don't have a clue what it's actually going to take to improve the situation.

[JediKooter]

I think that any type of merit pay that is determined or partially determined on how well or bad the students do, is not fair to the teachers without commitment from the students parents/guardians. The parents need to be held more responsible for their kids education.

If the merit pay is based completely without student performance, I'm sure there's a method someone could come up with, while probably not 100% fair, could achieve what they are looking for in merit pay. Unfortunately, with unions, they have to keep as many card carrying (paying) members as possible, so they are going to fight tooth and nail to keep crappy teachers that should have been fired years ago. Not saying unions are solely the problem, but, they definitely aren't helping the situation.

I don't envy teachers one bit in todays world. Education has been too politicized for really any meaningful advances and improvements in education and teachers are caught in the middle of it all. You guys have to put up with crap from the administrators, the kids, the parents and the government. My hat goes off to all of you for sticking in there and trying to give these kids an education.

[bhlloy]

I guess the question I would have for Rowech is how do you measure what level the kid is at? If it's more standardized tests or GPA based, then it's no better a solution than all the stuff that's been rehashed this thread. It just comes down to the question of how you are measuring performance.

I think merit based pay/heavily leaning towards bonuses is a horrible ideas for public service jobs where measuring performance is such a gray area but if you are going to do it, then I think you have to treat it like private business does - you get evaluated by your supervisor and you are responsible for the performance of your business or department (i.e. school) as a whole. But then you get into the whole gray area of how do you measure the performance of your school and is there a way to fiddle that? If you can't trust supervisors to give an honest assesment of a teacher's performance and not just cook the reports then that's a sign that we need new supervisors and/or we should just abandon the idea of ever having a fair system for merit based pay.

Oh, and I agree 100% that most teachers have nothing but my respect and it's a job I could never ever do.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by Danny

I'd prefer to see a system where there are both more traditional high schools and high schools more geared towards learning a trade. I think this would help the situation as simply put school is not for everyone and a portion of the kids who are problems would be less so if in that type of environment.

Where are the jobs in the US currently to support people going into trades? In the past, these kids would become machinists, but now, those jobs require a college degree.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by rowech

4. Administrators who are responsible for hiring are often the same ones doing the evaluating. If I evaluate a teacher badly, and I hired them, how does it reflect on me as a judgement of teaching ability? Would I be better served to give good evaluations so it doesn't look like I'm bad?

5. Too many times there is the idea, "this teacher can become a better teacher" if we just allow them time to grow...too many times this backfires and then you have a teacher with 3-5 years experience who will be tough to get rid of. This goes back to something I said earlier about cutting loses sooner rather than later. If a teacher isn't firmly in control and able to teach well after five years, they're never going to be able to no matter how much harder they try.

My answer encompasses both items here. A big issue in this country is being afraid to make a mistake. It is far better to make a decision, and then admit you made a mistake, than delay making a decision, or not admit you made a bad one. Too often we throw good money after bad because we chose to do X.

If a teacher shows promise, you give them time to grow, but you have to be willing to pull the plug if it is the right thing to do.

[bhlloy]

Right. Seems like that is a pretty damning indication of school administrators if that is the case. If a school administrator can't admit to a mistake in hiring and cut somebody loose that isn't getting the job, they shouldn't be in that position. You very rarely see this problem in the private sector.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

As a college prof I much prefer a merit system to yearly raises.

However, one of the problems with secondary merit pay is basing things on immediate payback. A really good teacher gives you things to think about years later.

My wife and I just left school. Last day before the kids come. She teaches 6th grade SPED. A parent grabbed her as we were leaving. She told my wife that she wanted to thank her. Her daughter was in my wifes class about 5 years ago. The women told my wife that because of her, the daughter wants to graduate H.S.. This girl was one of those kids that "knows it all". She had a wicked attitude. The Mom told my wife she was sorry that she wasnt more supportive when her daughter is in class. The girl barely made it out of M.S., primarily because of her IEP.

Does my wife get back pay under the merit pay system? How do you measure this success?

[Autumn]

I think the thing is, we all knew who the good teachers were when we were in school. We knew who the bad teachers were. There is some variance where one teachers works for some students but not others. But I don't think it's difficult for the teachers' supervisors to know who is an excellent teacher and who is not. However I don't think there's any test in the world or set of rigid criteria that could match what we know. It has to be done by humans.

I had a teacher in high school who taught us to write at a college level and understand literature. But there was no test that could have demonstrated that - our ability to remember facts about American literature was irrelevant to what she taught us. This was not about grammar but about how to write a compelling hypothesis and back it up with evidence. Who is going to judge her students' efforts on this? You just can't do it, but I'm sure anyone in that building could have told you she was one of the top teachers there.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I had a teacher in high school who taught us to write at a college level and understand literature. But there was no test that could have demonstrated that - our ability to remember facts about American literature was irrelevant to what she taught us. This was not about grammar but about how to write a compelling hypothesis and back it up with evidence. Who is going to judge her students' efforts on this? You just can't do it, but I'm sure anyone in that building could have told you she was one of the top teachers there.

Unfortunately for her (in the scenario you're describing) those facts are most likely part of the job description, at least in my era they would have been*. If you're not retaining an adequate amount of those then there's an issue there.

*is because the standards & objectives I see today are often so vague that
I really won't take for granted what they'd call for

[flounder]

There's an interesting article in the LA Times that's the first of a series looking at teacher performance.

Seeking to shed light on the problem, The Times obtained seven years of math and English test scores from the Los Angeles Unified School District and used the information to estimate the effectiveness of L.A. teachers — something the district could do but has not.

The Times used a statistical approach known as value-added analysis, which rates teachers based on their students' progress on standardized tests from year to year. Each student's performance is compared with his or her own in past years, which largely controls for outside influences often blamed for academic failure: poverty, prior learning and other factors.

Though controversial among teachers and others, the method has been increasingly embraced by education leaders and policymakers across the country, including the Obama administration.

In coming months, The Times will publish a series of articles and a database analyzing individual teachers' effectiveness in the nation's second-largest school district — the first time, experts say, such information has been made public anywhere in the country.

Among the findings, the variation among teachers within a school is much larger than variation between schools, and the teachers that school officials think are doing the best job are sometimes the worst. The LA teachers' union's response? Call for a boycott of the paper.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Right. Seems like that is a pretty damning indication of school administrators if that is the case. If a school administrator can't admit to a mistake in hiring and cut somebody loose that isn't getting the job, they shouldn't be in that position. You very rarely see this problem in the private sector.

I'm calling shenanigans on this. I love how so many people seem to hold private sector and public sector to two different standards. Where is this utopian meritocracy private sector in which you live?

I've seen this happen *a lot* both in my job and anecdotally, talking to other people. Where I work, we get performance evaluations on a yearly basis and they sure as hell look like the same bell curve people get in school whether it's deserved or not and that's under different managers and different jobs. Too many bad performers and they're going to get in trouble. Too many good performers and there's not enough money to give bonuses.

You see people all the time who are the manager's favorite who are awful but they won't fire them or can't fire them because someone further up the chain likes them.

Truly ask yourself, if you're not in sales, how many of you are genuinely graded on a primarily quantitative scale. I have always had good evaluations because I do well and work hard but there's only some of that which can be statistically validated while a good chunk is also made up of "how much the person evaluating likes how I'm doing" in a way that cannot be measured.

SI

[Tigercat]

The problem with "Merit Pay" is that the term seems to imply quantifiable results that lead to the pay. I think teacher bonuses could be done in a way that makes more sense, but I don't think our public schools are ready to implement such a system.

If I were in charge of a state department of education, and I wanted to create a system of teacher bonuses, each year I would take a teacher, principal, Ed. professor, and concerned member of the public from each school district and hire them to work with a different district to use quantitative (test scores raised, ect) and qualitative (critical thinking methods encouraged, ect) methods to determine the level of teaching going on in a classroom. Recommendations for improvement and bonus pay would be voted on by said panel and passed on to the teacher.