Werewolf CXXV - Vegas, Baby - VILLAGERS WIN

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by PackerFanatic

I am disappointed I didn't get to stick around longer, but happy that the good guys won

I truthfully didn't follow along much after I lost, so it might have been somewhat brought up, but can someone explain how I died?

Heh, heh...

My apologies for that, PF. It was nothing personal--you were just an avenue for me to make money.

As the Casino Owner, I had a duke ability; I could rig one lynch in the game. I felt that money would be key in the game, so I devised a plan to get me a lot.

I picked you, because I didn't think anyone would have you down as their bet after Night One (you were fairly out of the discussion to that point). If I could lynch you with my duke abilty and also be the only one with you as a bet, I thought I could get a boatload of cash.

So that's what I did. I let the discussion play out, which would have resulted in a tie (as it turns out) between DV and one other player. The village didn't know about hoops' two vote power yet, so they all thought DV was getting the lynch. But I had sent in my duke order on you, and one way it was different was that I wasn't going to be revealed after doing it.

The fact you ended up in third place for votes was a complete coincidence. People started looking at you then for some reason.

So you got lynched (by me), I got a bunch of cash, and the village went "W...T...F?!?"

[Autumn]

Oh right, the formula was pretty easy. The winners divided up however much money the lynch victim had, first of all. In addition, all the money spent on services that night was divided up among the winners also. So basically it kept all the money in the game in a closed system.

[Autumn]

Also, the thief mechanic was very straightforward - Lefty took all your money. I think you guys believed some fake numbers Saldana had given you and you ended up all confused about that.

[tyketime]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Unfortunately, Tyke, you'll now find that A) no one ever believes you again. And B) you get a lot of lynch votes from now on, lol.

Yikes! I can believe that. Am I the only one who has altered the truth to that extent? I would suspect that wolves eventually have to go down that same slippery slope and hope to cover enough tracks.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Oh right, the formula was pretty easy. The winners divided up however much money the lynch victim had, first of all. In addition, all the money spent on services that night was divided up among the winners also. So basically it kept all the money in the game in a closed system.

That's what was missing! I had the money spent on the services figured into it, but I didn't know how you made up the difference. Of course, it makes sense now; the extra was the lynchee's money.

I had some thought a percentage might have been involved (a percentage of the service money spent, that is), but the percenatges never matched; plus, the percentages came up were really weird numbers, not "60%" or something obvious like that.

I actually had a standing belief you were running a closed money system game.

[tyketime]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Oh right, the formula was pretty easy. The winners divided up however much money the lynch victim had, first of all. In addition, all the money spent on services that night was divided up among the winners also. So basically it kept all the money in the game in a closed system.

I actually tried the "amount spent on winners" as the formula, but it didn't work out. I never thought to include the money of the victim. That's a good one!

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Also, the thief mechanic was very straightforward - Lefty took all your money. I think you guys believed some fake numbers Saldana had given you and you ended up all confused about that.

The only reason I believed it was Chief said sal had something like $50 left after stealing from him, so I didn't think it took all your money, which I thought wouldve been too strong.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by JAG

The only reason I believed it was Chief said sal had something like $50 left after stealing from him, so I didn't think it took all your money, which I thought wouldve been too strong.

Misunderstanding may have led to that.

I never knew how much sal had left. What I knew was that I could confirm that sal had received a correction PM from Autumn on that, because I had received one, too. sal claimed he had $67 left. Autumn's first PM to me said Lefty stole $337 and the correction PM said it was actually $287. $337-$287 == $50, so that's where I got the $50. I thought it was a discrepancy in what sal was saying, and was one reason I still had strong suspicions about him.

But I couldn't really lay that out too well, because I knew it basically came out of a moderator error (sorry, Autumn!).

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Autumn

That would be funny.

I'm glad people enjoyed it, I would definitely consider a sequel, with some rule fixes. One of the wolves said in PM he was heading to Jersey after this, so ...

I was pondering during the game that I should have made it possible to bid on only one service a night, to keep a rich player from dominating the game, especially since some of the services allowed them to keep making money. Now i"m not so sure after seeing how the endgame went down. What do people think?

Just some brainstorming...

My two cents, but I thought the wolves were a little underpowered, they had a big numbers disadvantage, the village had a lot of ways to get information, and the village even got a couple roles. I was surprised you allowed a duke role because of exactly how CR used it (who played a fantastic game incidentally), seems a bit strong. Maybe you could have a rule that other than the NK you can't win the bid on the same service consecutive nights? Maybe no bidding BG and seer together, that mechanic was tough for the wolves. Another random thought if you didn't like how bunched the bet winning was would be to choose 2 people to bet?

I don't know though, I enjoyed things as they were and depending on a number of factors the game could've easily gone a different way.

[mckerney]

I'd thought tyketime was the last Lupino when I had died and I had tried to drop a hint about it when Chief was questioning me. I guess I see why you didn't follow anything I'd said when I was a bit too subtle about it, CR outted me as a wolf and I was trying to talk people into ignoring the fact that saldana was revealed as a wolf and lynch a villager.

I was also planning on claiming a fake hidden villager role to explain my finances before I was scanned as a wolf, claiming that I started with half as much money as everyone else but won twice as much as everyone else on winning a bet with a victory condition of finishing the game with the most money. Didn't quite seem worth it after the scan though.

[The Jackal]

Sorry for ever doubting you JAG

[tyketime]

Originally Posted by saldana

Tyke, I wasn't trying to reprimand you, and I sincerely apologize if you felt like I was...I was just trying to do exactly what you said we needed to do,which is fill all you guys in on the rules, both written and unwritten...full blown flame wars have been fought over stuff like who was in the thread when,and I was just trying to make you aware...you didn't do anything wrong, sorry again if you thought otherwise

By the way, Sal, I was not upset with you at all. I was very upset with myself. I was sickened that my lack of experience could in any way ruin the game down the stretch. In fact, I PMed Autumn to express my dismay. I also told him that if he thought it was a major error, I would go ahead & confess to end the game.

So no hard feelings at all... except for the fact that you called a hit on me that night with no good reason...

[tyketime]

JAG: Did you ever waver at all on the last night about using the bodyguard on CR? My only hope, in desperate straits, was to keep mentioning The Jackal dying as the only way either of us could settle the "dispute". I was hoping you might even consider protecting Jackal instead knowing full well i wouldn't call the hit on CR. If I had gotten any vibe about that, I would have sent Crazy Legs to CR instead. That was a way, however small, for me to pull a victory out.

[Autumn]

JAG, yes, certainly with the way the bets and night kills turned out, the village became very overpowered. Part of htat was luck, part of that was just realy efficient use of the services, even the seeming minor ones such as Destiny, in order to out wolves. I think I had underestimated how good the village would be with those.

One fix would be to just have less services for the village to bid on, or have the services be more intermittent. In retrospect I might for example have Destiny not be an every day service. Another idea I had was to let the wolves transfer money between each other without needing the 24 hour check service (though that was usually a very cheap bid). That would make it easier for them to mask their money totals.

I also had originally planned not to reveal the winning bid amounts. That obviously was a good tool the village used. It would make bidding much more difficult if it was blind, but presumably the village would try to collect information on this, and the wolves would have a chance to lie, and a chance to be caught. Maybe that would have been better.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by tyketime

JAG: Did you ever waver at all on the last night about using the bodyguard on CR? My only hope, in desperate straits, was to keep mentioning The Jackal dying as the only way either of us could settle the "dispute". I was hoping you might even consider protecting Jackal instead knowing full well i wouldn't call the hit on CR. If I had gotten any vibe about that, I would have sent Crazy Legs to CR instead. That was a way, however small, for me to pull a victory out.

I did give it consideration, I thought it might've worked as a reverse psychology ploy, but in the end I decided to be conservative about it and hoped Chief would trust his scan. I figured that would've been safer than trying to explain to Jackal why I lied about who I protected, plus he wouldn't have had the benefit of the scan for extra info.

[JAG]

So why did the wolves avoid going after CR, myself, Jackal, and ntn after winning bets? (other than when we had obviously bought the BG). It sounds like money was an issue and those were people that seemed to have good money, not to mention CR being seer cleared.

By the way, I had no clue about how the winning bet was calculated, that confused me all through the game after I won 7075 on D3.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Oh, so who blew all their money buying the bodyguard on the first night?

I did. I knew I was going away and likely wouldn't be in the game long. I wanted to guarentee myself at least another day

Originally Posted by JAG

Lathum was oddly a star by offering himself as a sacrifice early on. We were able to glean a lot more info than we probably otherwise would have out of the first day of betting and voting.

This was by design. I knew I had to go away so I figured I would try it. Worst thing that would happen in I would get lynched, I figured some wolves would jump on it. I must admit, it was a lot of fun asking to be lynched then talking my way out of it.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by JAG

So why did the wolves avoid going after CR, myself, Jackal, and ntn after winning bets? (other than when we had obviously bought the BG). It sounds like money was an issue and those were people that seemed to have good money, not to mention CR being seer cleared.

By the way, I had no clue about how the winning bet was calculated, that confused me all through the game after I won 7075 on D3.

I was dead before we won any bets, but with 13 villagers and only 3 of us I felt we needed to go for as many safe kills as possible just to get villagers out of the game. I didn't want to risk going after the known villagers at that point because going for a night kill on somebody who could be protected by the body guard was too big of a risk. If we'd won an early be and were able to bid both the night kill and body guard I'm guessing bidding on both to take out a trusted villager is something we would have strongly considered.

[PackerFanatic]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Packer, Chief Rum's role basically had a duke power. He bet on you and then duked to you just to make money, basically.

Gotcha.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by tyketime

Yikes! I can believe that. Am I the only one who has altered the truth to that extent? I would suspect that wolves eventually have to go down that same slippery slope and hope to cover enough tracks.

Nope.

(whistles aimlessly while walking away casually)

[Zinto]

I knew we should have went by vote history even though I was the only one really pushing for it. I was hoping CR would scan me the two nights before the day I was lynched but he didn't and I did not want to try and bait him into doing so because I knew I would definitely be lynched then.

[Autumn]

There's definitely been moves like that before, Tyke. But 1) I don't remember a great fake reveal or wolf move like that in the past year or so. I might be forgetting, but seems it's been a while. I tried a couple that fizzled. 2) It was just very well done. I'm pretty sure anyone reading that role was sure I wrote it up.

Especially games like this the wolves tend to have to scramble for alibis. IT reminds me of the 24 game, where we wolves had to have fake roles and try to support them.

[thejuggler3]

Just read through all this. It was a geat game. Sorry, I missed it. You guys have probably given up on me coming back, but my schedule at work is about to get more "standardized" once I get on a new project, and I'll be in another game soon.

Cheers!

[Autumn]

awesome juggler, glad to hear it.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by tyketime

By the way, Sal, I was not upset with you at all. I was very upset with myself. I was sickened that my lack of experience could in any way ruin the game down the stretch. In fact, I PMed Autumn to express my dismay. I also told him that if he thought it was a major error, I would go ahead & confess to end the game.

So no hard feelings at all... except for the fact that you called a hit on me that night with no good reason...

i had plenty of good reason...i had you pegged and knew that since i was outed, you were going to come after me, so i wanted to see if i could get to you first. Autumn...would we have killed each other if i werent banging whores?

Originally Posted by JAG

So why did the wolves avoid going after CR, myself, Jackal, and ntn after winning bets? (other than when we had obviously bought the BG). It sounds like money was an issue and those were people that seemed to have good money, not to mention CR being seer cleared.

By the way, I had no clue about how the winning bet was calculated, that confused me all through the game after I won 7075 on D3.

i can speak for both families on this one knowing what i know now...my pack killed danny the first night...we didnt get any money...so we didnt know if we didnt get any because he spent it or if we werent supposed to get it.

Night 2, the other pack killed lathum, who had also spent all his money, so they were probably thinking the same thing. it wasnt until we killed hoops the following night that we got what was left in his wallet that we knew what the actual deal was, but i know i saw the huge amounts of money being spent on services, and since no one ever said how much they were getting paid off on the bets for, i assumed that guys were spending everything on their bids.

i thought this game was alot of fun and i did enjoy it...autumn, i dont know if you want to share any of the things we talked about in PM or not...up to you...thanks for a fun time. (and the hooker)

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by saldana

i had plenty of good reason...i had you pegged and knew that since i was outed, you were going to come after me, so i wanted to see if i could get to you first. Autumn...would we have killed each other if i werent banging whores?

Yeah, if not for Cassie you guys would have just killed each other in a wild shootout. It was going to be epic ...

[Autumn]

Saldana, I don't have the PMs anymore, and I know I've mentioned some of the issues already. So feel free to jump in with things that haven't come up.

Although it turned out Tyke was able to make a run with it, before that it looked like the wolves were pretty wrapped up early. As I mentioned to Saldana privately, I put in the first post that this game could very well be unbalanced, especially with the betting mechanic and it certainly started off that way. There were a lot of things out there the village could bid on and use, and they used them well, in addition to controlling the money early.

I think it was also a game that the wolves would have to jump head first into the strategy and planning from day one. Perhaps it would have helped for me to give the info on the services to the wolves and not the village so they'd have a head start with that thinking. (aAlthough Saldana, the hitman description did say they would take the victim's money).

The thing is if it played out again the bets could have gone very differently, the whole balance of power would have shifted. I'm not sure it's a game that's going to be balanced. There was some balance planned into the way the services were offered, and things such as Knuckles disappearing. Also there was a black market service that no one bid on, and then the crooked cop, both of which could have possibly been game changers.

Well, I'm just glad it turned out being fun. I'm open to any ideas about how to tweak the rules in case I ever run a sequel.

[The Jackal]

I think the rules worked out great. The game could have gone a lot of different ways. I'm still stunned the wolves never used Mario to clear a villager, look how much trust it bought me and JAG throughout. Granted we used it in very villagerish ways, but there are plenty of other strategies that could be employed. I'd like to see another/more games like this.

[Autumn]

Yeah I was thinking towards the end that a good strategy would have been for a wolf family to have one wolf that stayed on teh up and up - didn't spend money on night kills, bid for the seer, etc. They'd have one fellow who would be hard to find and could worm into the trust circle.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Saldana, I don't have the PMs anymore, and I know I've mentioned some of the issues already. So feel free to jump in with things that haven't come up.

Although it turned out Tyke was able to make a run with it, before that it looked like the wolves were pretty wrapped up early. As I mentioned to Saldana privately, I put in the first post that this game could very well be unbalanced, especially with the betting mechanic and it certainly started off that way. There were a lot of things out there the village could bid on and use, and they used them well, in addition to controlling the money early.

I think it was also a game that the wolves would have to jump head first into the strategy and planning from day one. Perhaps it would have helped for me to give the info on the services to the wolves and not the village so they'd have a head start with that thinking. (aAlthough Saldana, the hitman description did say they would take the victim's money).

The thing is if it played out again the bets could have gone very differently, the whole balance of power would have shifted. I'm not sure it's a game that's going to be balanced. There was some balance planned into the way the services were offered, and things such as Knuckles disappearing. Also there was a black market service that no one bid on, and then the crooked cop, both of which could have possibly been game changers.

Well, I'm just glad it turned out being fun. I'm open to any ideas about how to tweak the rules in case I ever run a sequel.

the thing that really struck me as creating an imbalance was the duke role for the village...it basically gave them free money since all the duke had to do was place his bet and then duke to his target...that day really put the screws to us because not only did it give Chief a ton of cash, it also took money away from us, because I had Darth, who actually was the lynch winner

also, having to compete not just with the other wolves but also to make sure that the village didnt take the night kill, from my point of view, really forced us to do nothing but bid high on the NK.

i dont think that should have been something that had to be bought, or at the very least should not have been able to be bought by the village.

i was very surprised (and impressed) that tyke lasted as long as he did, since i had him pegged when i was still alive, fake reveal and all...we have all said before that WW is a game of information, and this game just had entirely too much info available for the village.

[Autumn]

It seems balanced to me - if the village wants to bid for the night kill then they're spending money they can't spend on other services, and allowing the wolves to bid for things like the seer. In addition, in my experience giving the village a kill usually works to the wolves' favor - they most likely kill someone they shouldn't, then become a lynch target, etc, etc.

But maybe you're right that just having the wolves bid for it would be the way, I'm not sure. There was an imbalance in the sense of the village having a lot of bidders, and while the wolves could pool that didn't help them out in this game much. Maybe limiting each person to one bid.

I see what you mean about the duke role - I guess I expected the role to be a bit self serving and so not necessarily helping the village. But as i think I said to you privately I probably wasn't considering that in a game without roled villagers there's less downside to duking. My original conception the Casino Owner's victory would be having more money than anyone else, in which case it definitely would have not been a help to the village. I thought that would screw things up too much though.

[JAG]

The game would've been rather different if Lathum was lynched D1 (it was rather close) or DV was lynched D2, or wolf betting was more spread out in the early days. There are so many factors that could've changed the complexion of things. I think overall it was very well-balanced for a complicated rule set, the suggestions being offered are pretty minor, obviously the group had a very fun time with it, and the game ended up going down to the wire.

[Darth Vilus]

Good game Autumn, good game man. I had a blast!

[CrimsonFox]

Congrats Autumn on a sensational game and congrats to all the new guys on really doing some great work! Tyketime! You are one dangerous person! You were awesome! Amazed at some of the moves you made.

As for DaddyTargo and I, we're enjoying our suite at the prison Hilton eating spaghetti and steaks every night a la Goodfellas.