Poli--Second Chance

[Chief Rum]

Hey everyone,

I know this is a dicey topic for some, so I wanted to start this thread here and get some feedback.

Most of us know Poli's story, a once "ardent" WW player who lost his temper in a game (and not the first time) and more or less blew up a game with some revelations about in game mechanics. For those of you too new or who forgot, Poli was pretty much banned from playing after that, since many WW players would simply refuse to ever play with him again.

I'm fuzzy on the time, but I think it has been well over a year now, since this happened.

In any case, I would like to make a case for allowing Poli back into WW games, if he still wants to play, and if the WW community will have him back.

Even when WW was going through some serious dead periods, Poli continued to check into games and post a thought or two. He never pushed his case or asked to be included, that I recall. He loved to play WW and he made a mistake, and he seems fine with that.

We all know Poli tended to get a bit emotionally involved in the games. I don't know all the details my self, but I know that in the past few years, Poli has had to deal with a divorce, a move, a discharge from the military and even some sort of illness (forgive me, Poli, if that's not true, I'm writing off the cuff and from memory).

In any case, I know from his postings here at FOFC and from his FB page that Poli's got a new lease on life. He seems much more settled and he is engaged to be married.

I think that, if Poli's still interested, he should be allowed to participate again, at least on a trial basis, with the understanding that he's on a short leash and that he needs to be careful with how he handles himself in games. My guess is that Poli understands that now; he may not have before, or perhaps had so much crap going on in his life, he didn't care.

But, like I said, I know this is a touchy issue. Some of you have said you would never play with him again. I am looking for general community feedback on this, to see if those feelings are still there and still strong. If so, I don't think it's an issue to stick with the status quo.

But I like to believe we're a society of second chances, and I think the punishment has been long enough to reconsider. This isn't like Blade and bek, where hte/"they" were outright cheating; Poli got upset once too many times and did something phenomenally stupid in an emotional state.

Poli has not contacted me or asked me about doing this, not now or ever. It only occurred to me just now, seeing him post in the Amazing Race game thread.

In any case, I would enjoy seeing what everyone's feelings are on this.

[mckerney]

Wasn't around the WW games for any of that, but I'd be in favor of Poli having another chance.

[PackerFanatic]

Originally Posted by mckerney

Wasn't around the WW games for any of that, but I'd be in favor of Poli having another chance.

Ditto to both points. The more the merrier

[The Jackal]

Having played in the game which he ruined, it left a sour taste in my mouth for a long time. But I wouldn't refuse to play just because he was signed up in a game. We're not nazis, are we?

I do understand if there are some who would be put off by it, but second chances are good in my book.

[Chief Rum]

I appreciate that, guys, and new players (or newer; post-Poli players) are welcome to offer up their opinions.

This is one situation, however, where the older plaeyrs all really need to chip in. They were there and were the ones most affected.

[Chief Rum]

Heh... newer players wasn't supposed to include The Jackal.

Yeah, I played in that game and it left a sour taste in my mouth, too. In fact, I think I even said I would never play in a game with him again in that game thread.

[The Jackal]

A lot of us said that, CR, and one of the biggest reminders is that we don't have Abe playing with us anymore.

[Chief Rum]

BTW, this is just a feedback thread. I leave it to the community to decide if we should post a poll or something like that and make any "official" decisions.

Also, it's not simple as getting a majority in support. Really, as much as I think Poli has changed and for the better, if even one of our regular players, like Lathum or hoopsguy or someone like that, says they still will refuse to play with him, then it's not worth it, IMO.

Players like that make too many worthwhile contributions to this forum to even consider risking their participation over Poli (no offense meant to Poli, I am sure he would understand).

[The Jackal]

For a while I was annoyed seeing him post in the threads, it seemed to be too soon. But it's true that he hasn't sounded bitter and sounds genuinely interested in promoting the games, and I think we need all the players we can get. But that's just my two cents, and I also am curious what some of the other vets think.

[The Jackal]

I have a feeling Lathum won't be too keen on the idea.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

A lot of us said that, CR, and one of the biggest reminders is that we don't have Abe playing with us anymore.

Yeah, I know; I hate that Abe doesn't play. I know this was a key part of that, although I got the sense there was a lot of things going on with Abe and his feelings about participating in WW. I would welcome his input, too. even if he doesn't play anymore.

[The Jackal]

I really hope Abe gets the desire to run another Dungeon someday. It's selfish, I know, but I didn't get to be involved as I would've liked to. And that was some really fun stuff.

Alright, I'll stop derailing the thread.

[Lathum]

I think we need to factor in this would be at least a third chance for Poli, he blew up the Survivor game as well.

That being said while I am not vehemently opposed to it I also have a hard time supporting it. I don't take WW as seriously anymore, and I know I have in the past been right in the middle of causing problems, but what he did to Abes game is a really hard thing to forgive

[Lathum]

I also want to add I genualy think Poli is sorry for his actions and regrets it, but that doesn't mean he won't act like that agian. IMO.

[hoopsguy]

I wasn't in the game that people are alluding to, but I recall reading along and being very distressed at seeing a good game ripped apart.

I'm probably not the right person to give unbiased feedback in this thread, but I'll say that Poli coming back would not lead to me skipping games or anything along those lines. I feel much more strongly about another former member of the community, whose manipulation of the game was considerably more pre-meditated and pervasive (old timers will know who this is).

There are definitely players out there who are going to have stronger feelings, one way or another on Poli than I do. I would ask that we privately contact the players who vented in that game thread and give them the chance to express their feedback by IM/PM or here - whatever makes them comfortable.

Basically, I don't want to get into a spot where we welcome back one player and wave good-bye to five.

[Chief Rum]

Exactly, hoops. That's why I offer it up as not a majority situation, but really, if any one of our current players say if he plays, I go, it's sorry Poli. We're not going to lose good, regular players over giving someone a second or third chance.

And, yes, if it's not something someone wants to address publically, anyone is welcome to PM me directly, and we'll put an end to it right there, no names needed.

[Lathum]

Can someone find a link to the game in question?

[Autumn]

I was in that game, and I was 100% for not allowing him to play again. All of who have run games know what a commitment it is, and to have it all ruined for no good reason is galling.

That said, I also agree with the sentiments that Poli has stuck around, been a positive contributing member without getting to play, and clearly still loves the game. And that it's been a long time.

I would not mind Poli playing in a game. However, I 100% support the right of anyone, especially Abe, to say "No way." Like Chief, I think it should only happen if there's not a single person who says no.

[Lathum]

OK, been thinking about this for the last 30 minutes or so.

I am going to have to say at this point I would not welcome Poli back. The reason is werewolf almost died after the last incident. We seem to have gotten some really good momentum going. A few really nice games, new players, and a lot of old players who seem more engaged. All the while civility being maintained.

I am not ready to run the risk of it all being torn down again because of bad blood. My apologies to Poli, because I do think he really wants to play and does feel bad about previous incidents. If that makes me the jerk of the group so be it.

[The Jackal]

It doesn't make you a jerk. I think most of us tend to agree with you. There's no point jeopardizing a potential renaissance. He can participate in WW somewhere else if he's dying to be involved, and we obviously wish him well in his life.

[Chief Rum]

Agreed, Lathum. And I think Poli understands, too.

Further commentary is always welcome, but I suspect that will be the end of it for now. I hope Poli continues to read along and continue to post as he has in support of the WW community.

[Autumn]

That's a good point, Lathum. It seemed like a lot of people walked away from WW soon after that, and that seemed to be one of the major reasons why. I checked back after starting my game and it has been a full year since we've had a game with that many players and posts, since the Mine Wars I think. I definitely don't want to lose that.

[claphamsa]

i loved poli back when i played he was probably the only one more unhinged than me. (thats not why i loved him though) it seems hes taken a huge turn in his life... but why broach it if he hasnt expressed interest in playing again?

I didnt know what happend to Abe.....

[EagleFan]

I had a small PM conversation with him a couple months back about this and at that time he said that he actually liked just reading along better than participating in a game. Has anyone talked to Poli about this recently? If he still feels that way it may not matter much which way we decide.

I have had a couple run-ins with Poli but they have all been involved with him getting emotionally involved in a game. With that said I would be okay with him returning (if he wants to) but maybe with some sort of "probation" attached. Anything incident over that time period and he would be done.

Basically, for those who don't know... while he has been involved in emotional outbursts with some in the forum the issue in question goes well beyond that. He basically blew up a game by posting PM's that he received from the GM that game. While that may not seem major, he was a wolf at the time and the PM's included the list of wolves which sentenced the game to death at that point. I don't know the whole story behind it and can't remember if I was sitting that game out or if I was an early lynch casualty that game as I wasn't active in the game when it happened.

[Darth Vilus]

I'd say no for what it's worth but I'll leave it up to anyone else. A second chance sure why not, but a third? Nah

[saldana]

i feel really torn about this entire subject. I came out strongly against Poli when the whole situation blew apart in Abe's game...everyone has gotten heated at times in WW games...but no one has ever destroyed someone else's work the way he did...after i let loose in the thread, he PM'ed me, was extremely conciliatory, and seemed genuinely upset with the opinion I had of him.

Since then, i have had several lengthy PM conversations with him and do not for one second think he is anything but a genuinely good person, whom i definitively consider one of my good friends in this community. He let his emotions get the better of him on more than one occasion, and i dont blame anyone for not wanting him to play again

i know I almost invited him to the Dune game...i wrestled with whether i should give him the opportunity, as my friend, to be part of this crew again, hoping that he wouldnt act the way he did to Abe, but with the state of WW what it was, I was afraid of other people not wanting to play if i told Poli to sign up, and for that, I am sorry to you Poli.

FWIW, I would play in any game with him, but I am basing that purely on what i have come to believe about him as a person, from our individual conversations. I can't fault anyone for feeling any differently, and unfortunately, since i cant say one way or the other that i KNOW he wouldnt do it again, i dont really know if he should be allowed to come back

[J23]

I'm a relative newcomer, but was in the game where it blew up. I wouldn't sit out a game because he was going to be playing in it.

I don't however think it's worth upsetting a lot of players to give someone another shot.

[Thomkal]

this was the game, and as I was playing and still alive at the time of Poli's blowup of the game, I have little desire to have him return to play here. I'm happy that life seems to have settled down for him, but I'd always been waiting for the next time he did something like this.

Werewolf can bring up some heated and negative emotions for most of us, myself included, and I have my doubts he's changed that much. I would not walk away from a game that Poli joined if it was a game that had a good theme/was looking forward to though.

Werewolf CXII - The Red Death - GAME OVER - Front Office Football Central

I'm not sure but I think his posts might be deleted, didn't have time to check all the way back.

[Danny]

I like Poli a lot, and happy things are going better for him. I also would not avoid signing up for a game he played in. However, I just about had to talk him out of doing something similar in the group therapy game and I would place the odds highly in favor of behaviors repeating themselves eventually.

[path12]

Wow. I didn't know about any of this.

[Danny]

After some discussion via PM, weighing the thoughts here and my own considerations, I've decided that we're going to keep things the way they are. Werewolf is starting to really make a strong comeback and while I like Poli, I feel he has gotten plenty of chances and it's best if we stay on the track we're on.

Poli, I do hope you continue to be a part of the community in the role you have been.

If anyone has an issue with this decision, feel free to PM me.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by path12

Wow. I didn't know about any of this.

Thats what happens when you visit here once a year

[path12]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Thats what happens when you visit here once a year

I burned out on WW for many reasons. I do get the urge to jump into a game but with no work access it's not likely to happen......I do miss the people though. Even you.

[Poli]

It's no worry. I have no ill will to anyone here. As I mentioned elsewhere, I wouldn't want to rock anyone's boat. I haven't considered returning out of respect for everyone here.

I love the group of people here and want them to enjoy the game.

[Abe Sargent]

I just realized this was a topic. I don't feel any comment I give here would add to the conversation but here goes. ...

[Abe Sargent]

I believe in redemption. I believe in forgiveness. I believe in the redeeming power of one much greater than me to save us all from things much worse than ruining a game. I have forgiven him. I have been attacked much greater, and I have myself done things far worse. I wish that the worst thing I had ever done in my life was to intentionally ruin a game and the people's time they had invested in it. For me to hold a grudge would be silly.

Should this community decide to allow poli a third chance, then I would completely and totally accept it.

And since I'm not playing anyway, any statement of "I would or would not" play with poli is meaningless .

[CrimsonFox]

Funny enough I realized that we are approaching the one year anniversary of "That game". I read it last night just to remind myself.

I actually never felt that he had anything to do with the lull of werewolf players, except obviously for Abe. As one of those who stopped playing, I had other more important reasons like job crisis, had a bad accident, and then family in the hospital. As other people have lives and similar crisis, I never for a second thought Poli had anything to do with people playing or not. Especially since he wasn't able to play anymore, the reason of people "not wanting to play with him" was really nonexistent.

I am very happy to see his apology as the only thing I noticed was that I never got the sense that he was sorry, since he kept posting little comments here and there. But the internet always does hide real feelings. Really cool he's lost all that weight. Inspired me to start doing the same.

[KWhit]

Hey guys! Long time no see.

I decided to come see how FOFC was doing on a lark. I was bored and thought what the hell. I haven't been around at all lately - it's probably been months since I last logged in. I was just going to scan a few threads and then leave - probably for another few months. But then I saw this thread, and thought I should pipe up on the subject.

It's not just Abe that Poli drove away. He is the reason I stopped playing WW, too. I know I'm not as popular a player as Abe, but I have been around since game 1 here, and actually was the second person to run a game on this site. I don't say that to try to make myself sound cool or anything - believe me, I know how uncool I am, but just to educate some of the more recent players on how far back I go in these games. I've played in a ton of them and loved doing it - for the most part. But I will not be back to play in any more.

I kind of find it amazing that so many of you are willing to give him yet another chance. He completely destroyed two games that I was a player in. I'm amazed he isn't banned from the WW forum. But that's just my opinion and until now I was content to keep it to myself. But I thought you guys should know, since you're considering letting him play again.

Abe's post above was very generous. He stated that he forgives Poli. That's nice, I guess. And until I read this thread, I hadn't given the situation (or WW) any thought in months, so I can't say that I do or don't "forgive" him. But his behavior killed the game for me. Seriously.

It looks like the decision has been made. But I still thought you guys should know should the topic come up again in the future.

I do miss you guys. I hope all is well.

Cheers.

[Lathum]

KWhit, I would love for you to return. I saw some pics of you and the family earlier and seems all is well!

[KWhit]

Yeah, man. We're doing well. Crazy busy. Too much stuff going on with the kiddos.

Between baseball and piano lessons for our son and soccer and ballet for our daughter, we basically have some kind of activity to rush to every single day. We need a break.

[The Jackal]

KWhit! I hope you decide to come back sometime. Glad to hear things are going well for ya.

[Danny]

Good to hear from you Kwhit. Hopefully you do indeed return at some point

[CrimsonFox]

+1. Kwhit taught me a lot about bein a wolf.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

+1. Kwhit taught me a lot about bein a wolf.

Is that intended as a compliment or an insult towards him?

[CrimsonFox]

Well for THAT game a total compliment. That was PB's NFL Draft game. In my later wolf game I was kinda on my own so didn't really do well.

[KWhit]

Thanks for the well wishes guys. I'll drop back in from time to time as I do miss this community.